The Great Flood, Myth or Fabrication

I was suddenly confronted with a view that evidence for the "Great Flood" was not accepted, and that nothing can be found to support this occuring anywhere.

I was wondering if any of the interested parties within this Ancient and Lost Civiliations community had anything to offer of tales of a Great Flood, or any details of acrheological findings within the Med, Black Sea, Mid East, thru to China, and south across Africa. I would also expect some South American culture/s could have denoted something.

I have read previously about findings and such, and will work on bringing these back together, inorder to address this.

But I was curious what any of you, who had researched Egyptian, or Persian, or Greek, or Asian, or African, or American (N&S) Cutures, have to offer from these Ancient Peoples and Lost Civilizations.

Your input will be welcomed, and your assistance appreciated.

Ciao

Shane

I'll do a brief survey -- there is no evidence for a worldwide flood.

A common statement is that every culture has a myth of a flood. This simply isn't true. Many don't. A well-known one that doesn't is Norse mythology. Polynesian mythology also doesn't have it, nor does Japanese mythology (and so on and so forth to some fairly obscure traditions.)

Geological evidence shows that there wasn't ever a worldwide flood.

When you have a flood, it sweeps up all the sediments on the land, mixes them together, and lays them down in a single layer. It has a certain chemical composition (due to the mix of soils, decayed plant and animal material, and so forth) and it's pretty unmistakeable.

No such layer exists that covers the Earth. We have layers that cover huge areas -- like some massive lava outflows (Siberian Traps, volcanos in Texas, etc) and vast ashfalls a thousand feet or more in thickness (yes -- Big Bend area) and huge limestone reefs (with fossilized corals) that are thousands of feet thick. There are upthrusts and folds and other processes that speak of a lively planet.

The evidence for the Earth being a huge supercontinent that broke up into today's continents comes from rock layers on one side of the ocean matching (in terms of chemistry, fossils, and so forth) rock layers on the other side of the ocean.

The evidence for the destruction of the dinosaurs by a meteor at the Cretaceous age end is a single small layer of iridium found in rocks of a certain age throughout the ENTIRE world.

So we can measure these things, if they did happen.

There's no Flood layer. Anywhere.

Rock hunting is fun and so is learning the geology of the area where you live. Grab yourself some half priced books or library books on local geology and go out and look at the rocks (I did some rockhounding when I was young... it's fun!) Drive and look at road cuts (this is fun in Texas -- we've such a variety of rock layers) and see how they dip and dive under one another. Learn how they tell what happened -- just as clues uncover a crime.

You can judge for yourself if you look to the rocks: there's no global Flood.

Culturally, the version in the Bible seems to come from Sumeria and the tale of Gilgamesh. It's pretty similar. There are other similar legends in the area, with different numbers of people being saved on various vessels. Since the Israelites were under the thumb of the Sumerians for awhile, it would not be unusual if one culture borrowed/modified from the other.

The Gilgamesh tale (written on cuneiform tablets) is one of the oldest tales in the world. Not THE oldest tale... but one of the 20 oldest tales ever written.

Nice to see we at least agree Byrd

Coming from the Pentecostal backgrond, I too found it difficult to understand this Image of a Global Flood, but I know Aborigines wouldn;t be around today, and the Asains would not have their lore of this. So yes, as a first step, maybe this can be cleared up.

But a Great Flood dated sometime BC seemingly occured within the Med and Mid East.

In Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Greece, Cyprus, throught to Spain, indications of flooding to appear to be present.

This is what I would like to followup on, and I would expect the best people to discuss this here, would be found within this group.

I would be interested though, if some of your references to these tales you noted, could be linked.

The Gilgamesh Epic is found in Wikipedia as follows. A general outline, with links to interated topics

en.wikipedia.org...

But yes Byrd, I do agree with you in this regards. Globally, there seems little evidence this occured.

Ciao

Shane

There can be little doubt that there have been extremely large "megafloods" in the past, and will be in the future. Any populated areas on or near a coastline are obviously a target for tsunamis, both the "regular" (2004) kind and the huge ones that result from giant landslides. Also to be considered are tsunamis caused by meteoric ocean impacts.

But when and where was the flood mentioned in the Bible? That is the question. The similarity between the story in the Gilgamesh epic and the Biblical story of Noah point to a flood in Mesopotamia, to my mind. By the way, an even older version of this flood myth (older than Gilgamesh) has been found (or so I've heard.) Basically the same kind of story though.

Current thinking lays it out as a large flood event happening in the Tigris and Euphrates river valley, which floods (or used to flood) annually, of course. Every so often, as happens here with the Mississippi River, the annual flood is gigantic. A "hundred year" event, or a "500 year" event, these are called today by the insurance companies. The story of saving the animals comes (it is believed) from the idea of a particular merchant (transporter) on the river, that was transporting animals, grain and beer. He got away similar to the way that Forrest Gump cornered the shrimp market in the American portion of the Gulf of Mexico - everybody else's boats were destroyed.

Harte

[edit on 4/23/2006 by Harte]

Originally posted by Shane
But a Great Flood dated sometime BC seemingly occured within the Med and Mid East.

In Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Greece, Cyprus, throught to Spain, indications of flooding to appear to be present.

This is what I would like to followup on, and I would expect the best people to discuss this here, would be found within this group.

Excellent idea, Shane! I have heard of some megafloods, but nothing that involved Egypt and no unusual inundations that I recall. HOWEVER... Ah ain't an expert on that bit!

I have heard it suggested that the flooding of the Mediterranean was the source of the legends and heard that a Black Sea flood was also the source. While I don't think we can come up with a definitive answer here (though woudn't it be fun for us to all gather together and take a trip to look at sites?) we can at least do some "armchair examination" of this.

I'm doing homework right now, so I'll let someone else start this off.

What are the likely candidates?

I don't know any hard evidence off the top of my head.

The evidence for the destruction of the dinosaurs by a meteor at the Cretaceous age end is a single small layer of iridium found in rocks of a certain age throughout the ENTIRE world.

I've read an article a while back that says that the Dinosaurs went extinct some thousands of years after the meteor impact.

www.sciam.com...

Sorry if this is offtopic, I just thought since you mentioned it I would throw this in to the mix.

As there are alot of myths on great floods that talk of destroying the world, after reading the original thread, I went and did a bit of looking myself. After a first glance I would say that a good portion of the flood myths happened where the population is near a major river or on the coast. Most have interesting tales of great floods and people who either were killed or died. Myself, I think that the human race is far older than what is thought by science, and what is being stated, in the different myths do have some validity to what is being stated. I would propose this: What if during the time in which these myths were around, something happend that causes major changes in the earth, to cause this? Who knows how long the waters were at the levels that they are at. A significant raise in the level of the waters, to most of the aboriginal people and they would think that it was a large flood. I also think that during that time the earth was geologically unstable and that there were alot more earthquakes and other earth moving events that would account for the different flood myths.

Nice to see a neighbour on the Board, Sardion2000.

And its nice to see others offering their comments

Well, two things should be looked at from my point of view.

Defining a region, and expelling misconcetptions, that arise with the use of the Term, Great Flood.

I believe, from what I have understood, this is a Med and Mideast regional matter

www.lib.utexas.edu...

Covering most of the top portion of this map.

I believe the Biblical account is an accurate reflection of what occured, sometime in the distant past. I believe, and evidence from Roman and Greek Lore, seems to confirm this, since the gods and dieties they worshiped where no longer here. If the account offered in Genesis 6 is reviewed, this was the sole intent of the Great Flood.

Plato identifies "the great deluge of all" with the destruction of Atlantis. The priest of Sais told Solon that before "the great deluge of all" Athens possessed a noble race, who performed many noble deeds, the last and greatest of which was resisting the attempts of Atlantis to subjugate them; and after this came the destruction of Atlantis, and the same great convulsion which overwhelmed that island destroyed a number of the Greeks. So that the Egyptians, who possessed the memory of many partial deluges, regarded this as "the great deluge of all."

From Atlantis, the Antediluvion World, by Donnelly
Part II The Deluge Chapter 1 Pg 67

So what is in Plato's Timaeus of interest anyways? Critias recalls something

"Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages. He was a relative and a dear friend of my great-grandfather, Dropides, as he himself says in many passages of his poems; and he told the story to Critias, my grandfather, who remembered and repeated it to us. There were of old, he said, great and marvellous actions of the Athenian city, which have passed into oblivion through lapse of time and the destruction of mankind,....

He goes on to note.

There upon one of the priests, who was of a very great age, said: O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water,

You can read Timaeus at the following. Much much more, but I thought this should be Pointed Out.

www.sacred-texts.com...

We are not speaking about something here that is a fabrication. First references to an Occurance coming from an source, we believe to be accurate. And if we choose not to regard this as an accurate indication that there could have been a an event one could describe as an Act of God, then why would we believe anything else these people said?

And for you Byrd

I found this tale told by the Preists of Sais to Solon is a pretty good account of Time. After Solon asks for more details about the previous people, the Preists offers...

Solon, said the priest, both for your own sake and for that of your city, and above all, for the sake of the goddess who is the common patron and parent and educator of both our cities. She founded your city a thousand years before ours, receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old.

Do you recall something 8800 BC I noted elsewhere??

And this is the first time I have ever read anything of this Text or Plato, for that matter.

But we see, a Goddess inspired city dating back 9000 years ago simply dissappeared, and the ones to follow, had no clue. I wonder when the last time the Preist of Sais, happened to have seen Nith?

Anyways, like you, I am looking and seeing what I can find. I know this tale was quite interesting. Could be late night reading Material.

Looking forward to your finds or thoughts

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Shane
culture/s could have denoted something.

They can make all the notes they want, the problem is that there is no physical/geological evidence for a great global flood having occured. I daresay that the evidence that we do have contradicts it ever having happened. ALso, some people have looked at the phsyics of having that much water released as rain from the sky at once, and it releases so much heat energy that it starts boiling itself away, ie is phsyically immpossible.

Lots of cultures have stories about floods. This is most likely because almost every culture has had to endure a devastating, but local, flood. In other cases, the story of the flood itself gets passed from one culture to another, as with the hebrews receiving their flood story from the sumerians.

Originally posted by Nygdan
They can make all the notes they want, the problem is that there is no physical/geological evidence for a great global flood having occured.

ALso, some people have looked at the phsyics of having that much water released as rain from the sky at once, and it releases so much heat energy that it starts boiling itself away, ie is phsyically immpossible.

Lots of cultures have stories about floods. ..........as with the hebrews receiving their flood story from the sumerians.

Hello Nygdan

As Byrd was quick to note, you are again confirming this, and I believe as you. It is impossible that this implied an event of a Global Scale.

Your comments on the rain released from the Sky at once, is interesting. Something is missing, but I am sure I will bring this back up for consideration at another time, once I figure out what is missing from the equation here.

But it is those "Lots of cultures have stories about floods.", that I would like to look at, and see what is there for consideration.

Was there a dramatic event of Flooding that co-incided with many of these cultures, (In the Area of Concern), that can be pointed to as being the Great Flood.

No one has spoken to the Gilgamesh Epic, in any detail, so we'll take a look and see what is noted.

In the preambles and commentary on the topic and discoveries, we find some interesting points that should be noted.

"By the careful study and investigation of the old and new material Assyriologists have, during the last forty years, been enabled to restore and complete many passages in the Legends of Gilgamish and the Flood. It now seems that the Legend of the Flood had not originally any connection with the Legend of Gilgamish, and that it was introduced into it by a late editor or redactor of the Legend, probably in order to complete the number of the Twelve Tablets on which it was written in the time of Ashur-bani-pal."
Pg 26

The commentary goes onto note,

"In the introduction to his paper on the "Chaldean Account of the Deluge," which Smith read in December, 1872, and published in 1873, he stated that the Assyrian text which he had found on Ashur-bani-pal's tablets was copied from an archetype at Erech in Lower Babylonia. This archetype was, he thought, "either written in, or translated into Semitic Babylonian, to at a very early period," and although he could not assign a date to it, he adduced a number of convincing proofs in support of his opinion. The language in which he assumed the Legend to have been originally composed was known to him under the name of "Accadian," or "Akkadian," but is now called "Sumerian." Recent research has shown that his view on this point was correct on the whole. Pg 27


There seems to be no evidence that proves conclusively that the Sumerian version is older than the Semitic, or that the latter was translated direct from the former version. It is probable that both the Sumerians and the Semites, each in their own way, attempted to commemorate an appalling disaster of unparalleled magnitude, the knowledge of which, through tradition, was common to both peoples. both peoples. It is, at all events, well known that the Sumerians regarded the Deluge as an historic event, which they were, practically, able to date, for some of their records contain lists of kings who reigned before the Deluge, though it must be confessed that the lengths assigned to their reigns are incredible. After their rule it is expressly noted that the Flood occurred, and that, when it passed away, kingship came down again from on high. Pg 27-28

I do find this curious!

Despite having some notion of the Gilgamesh Epic and the Flood Details noted, we have this strange PRESUMPTION it is an Original Source for the Biblical Account.

Why would the above be indicating the Deluge Accounts may have had Semetic beginings, in the Chaldean, or at the least, have originated at the same time.

Maybe the Spin of the secular world just does not wish to be noted. Distraction and Confusion.

But you can review the complete details and the account at the Following

www.sacred-texts.com...

I was drawn myself to the Age Comments, and we find Gilgamesh sought the immortality of his forefathers.

I am reviewing the Deluge portion, and will note anything we should be looking at in specific.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Shane
But it is those "Lots of cultures have stories about floods.", that I would like to look at, and see what is there for consideration.

Ah yes, I see.
One thing that comes to mind is that the Greeks have a deluge myth, and that, in addition to that, they also have, via plato, the story of atlantis, which kinda makes for two myths.

This might also indicate that, irrespective of a culture having experienced a flood, that these flood stories on their own are liked because they 'speak' to something essential to the human spirit, that the old wickedness gets washed away, purification like, and out of this abyss (the abyss in dreams, I have heard, represents the psyche itself), comes the good new world. Its 'poetic', and perhaps the story retains popularity because of that.

Despite having some notion of the Gilgamesh Epic and the Flood Details noted, we have this strange PRESUMPTION it is an Original Source for the Biblical Account.

I'll agree that people, myself included, can be a bit sloppy in the wording on that. Rather than having some hebrews, speaking and reading hebrew in the hebrew alphabet, in israel, getting a copy of a sumerian cuneiform clay tablet on the flood, and then 'inserting' it into their library of texts, what probably happened is that there was an oral tradition of this flood story, present throughout the middle east, from before the (presumed) seperation of the hebrews and mesopotamian semites.

Regardless, the gilgamesh tablets are older than any copies of the jewish book of genesis.

I tend to wonder on this subject,as living in So Calif you can go up to 9000ft in Big Bear and find sea shells,also in death vally also evidence at one time it was a sea,so how can told scholars say there was no anomolies,you can read all the books written still some things can't be explained away,problem is scientists are always changing their etched in stone philosophiesI wish one would dismiss what the words written in bible,seems they are pre occupied by it,I'm neither a geologist nor and Anthropologist but I know Sh** from shinola,I think in thiscase one has to use common sense

~~

my .02

Google Search: Flandrian Inundation

in a capsule, between 18,000-5,000 YA the ice sheets melted
rivers swelled, new river deltas formed, a lot of earth changes
over time....not a 1 year global flood that exterminated all
animal life on earth except for those on a singular Ark, as some oral traditions promoted and became incorporated into the body of religions.

If you Googled the above words, you'll find sites dealing with epic
universal 'Flooding' and such, involving studies in Egypt and the British Isles among others....

3rd on the list is a site with many links that are of interest
www.geographypages.co.uk...

near bottom of sites on Page 1
www.ulstermuseum.com...
2nd to last item; Dr Ilga Zagorska 'StoneAge habitation in the environs of Lake Burtnieks, northern Latvia'
........an event like this, or even the BlackSea inundation, could be the basis for the world-wide flood storys, among various peoples in many areas on the globe.

the myth served its purpose, here in the 21st century there should be a different emphasis on the Flandrian Inundation V. Great Flood,
imho

i agree that there is no evidence supporting a worldwide flood during human habitation...but...if you take into account the source of many of the flood myths "christian,muslim,jewish" you can trace the sources to ancient civilizations in the middle east "babylonian,sumerian ect." there is evidence that sudden catastrophic floods occured in this area..great inland seas filling up virtually overnight and leaving the majority of these civilizations citys underwater to this day ... in a sense these peoples whole world was wiped out ..... these stories are told over thousands of years and become a "worldwide flood " with only Noah and his decendants surviving....i believe all myths should be explored and the sources or roots found. As you can see i also believe thjat capitalization is overrated

Nygdan brings up good information. It's great to live in a time of such a wealth of information, to get a larger view of things, like looking down at a large jig saw puzzle holding a piece in your hand and scanning for where it might fit in the larger picture. Now, Oldtimer2, in the geological age of the Earth, mountains rise up, erode, water floods. Have you ever had the chance to visit the Calico Early Man Site (between Big Bear and Death Valley)? Hard to look out from it and believe one is standing on the shore of acient Lake Manix.
I do believe an ancient people experienced a localized flooding, but in their world it would be universal. Hey, there are people in the town I live in who have never been out of the county!

Originally posted by desert
Nygdan brings up good information. It's great to live in a time of such a wealth of information, to get a larger view of things, like looking down at a large jig saw puzzle holding a piece in your hand and scanning for where it might fit in the larger picture. Now, Oldtimer2, in the geological age of the Earth, mountains rise up, erode, water floods. Have you ever had the chance to visit the Calico Early Man Site (between Big Bear and Death Valley)? Hard to look out from it and believe one is standing on the shore of acient Lake Manix.
I do believe an ancient people experienced a localized flooding, but in their world it would be universal. Hey, there are people in the town I live in who have never been out of the county!

Yes I have,my point is science is speculation,unless one was there to witness it,the answer will always in the proverbial wind

Originally posted by Byrd
I'll do a brief survey -- there is no evidence for a worldwide flood.

A common statement is that every culture has a myth of a flood. This simply isn't true. Many don't. A well-known one that doesn't is Norse mythology. Polynesian mythology also doesn't have it, nor does Japanese mythology (and so on and so forth to some fairly obscure traditions.)

Oh?

In Norse mythology, Bergelmir was a son of Thrudgelmir. He and his wife were the only frost giants to survive the deluge of Bergelmir's grandfather's (Ymir) blood, when Odin and his brothers (Vili and Ve) butchered him. They crawled into a hollow tree trunk and survived, then founded a new race of frost giants.

Also, if you want to get into the whole timeline, was the the Great Deluge supposed to be before the Japanese got to Japan and defeated the giants, or after?

At an archaeological dig in Ur a while back, workers were finding a lot of ancient mesopotamian artifacts and then hit a HUGE layer of river sediments. Once they got through it, they began to find more artifacts, similar to those above, and in higher abundance. Couple this with the Dunes found along the bottom of the Black sea, and you've got a pretty good basis for proof of a Mesopotamian flood. When I hear about a "great global flood" as the Bible supposedly describes, I can't help but compare the similarities found between the story of Noah and the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is the oldest recorded story we have. The most interesting thing to me is that most Biblical scholars agree that the Ark came to rest somewhere in the mountains of Turkey. Mt. Ararat to be more precise.(Another thread discussion all together) When you take into consideration that Utnapishtim, the Sumerian Noah,(whose name by the way means "he who walks as a pillar of righteousness" in Hebrew...food for thought) was from Shurrupak, and was there when the flood began, you can account for how far and fast a ship of that size can drift on still water and judge that it is quite conceivable that modern day Turkey is a plausible place to end up after fourty days and nights.(Gilgamesh actually says sixty, but who is counting? ) In the Epic, the mountains were called by another name, Nisir, but the two are compared in likeness. Is the Gilgamesh story of the flood the very same as in the Bible? If so, the evidence of a flood that has been dated to 5500 B.C. clearly shows that it was contained in the Mesopotamian valley, AND NOWHERE ELSE. There is nothing to validate a "worldwide" flood. Granted, in both the Bible and the Epic of Gilgamesh, the narrator claims that the waters, "enveloped the world", but you have to consider that at this time, the world WAS the Mesopotamian valley and was extended only to Egypt and the Med Sea. These people had never crossed the seas, and did not know what stretched beyond it. When they claimed that something happened to the entire world, their scope was limited by their experiences. Nowhere else will you find such geological evidence of this magnitude to support the theory of the global flood. In fact, the sand dunes in the Black Sea were only discovered because someone was trying to validate the story.
Columbia University Record
Here is a good place to read up on this. It's pretty interesting and they seem to summarize the expedition and findings better than most other sites on the web.

Byrd, I would unfortunately have to agree with IamJman on this one. I don't really want to detail every listing, so here is a helpful link for any of you who would like to have a detailed account of each culture and their flood story. I am in agreement that not EVERY culture has one, that we have discovered at least. But there are many cultures that still tell word of mouth stories with no reliable ancient documentation. (Just because you aren't looking at a million dollars, doesn't mean that some lucky S.O.B can't prove it's real!)
Flood Myths of Worldwide Cultures

I Got an idea about the flood


I have seen reports about planets and moons that will drift through our solar system. I believe that a planetary body may have passed very close to the earth thousands of years ago, just close enough to raise the ocean levels really high but not enough to cause world wide damage, and not enough to supposedly flood the whole world. Maybe this is what happened.