AboveTopSecret.com is a Government COINTELPRO Disinformation Operation

In May 2006 Bush was accused of failing to inform Congress of certain Intelligence Programs.

An NSA initiative, code named "Pioneer Breaker used AT&T Soloutions to build exclusively for NSA use a network operations centre.

AT&T spokesperson`s stated they couldn`t confirm or deny it has a relationship to the classified NSA program.

On the 18/12/05 Colin Powell spoke of a report that Bush has secretly authorized the NSA to eavesdrop on US citizens without a warrant from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillence Court, as required by fed law.This requirment was instituted by Congress after the Watergate to protect Civil Liberties and curb abuses of executive power, such as Nixons secret monitoring (Cointelpro) program.

Since 2002 legal checks that Congress constructed to insure that no President would repeat Nixons actions had been secretly ignored.

Senate Judiciary Comittee Chairmen Arlen Specter is in dispute with the Bush Admin over exrcutive power threatening to subpeona documents on the Warrantless Surveillence Program.

Attorney general Alberto Gonzales who is involved in Bush`s warrantless program and FBI Director Muellor have requested Google,Microsoft,AOL,Comcast,Verizon and others to retain data on Internet traffic.They are not asking for e-mail content but records such as e-mail traffic and web searches.Govt is required to seek proper legal authority such as subpeonas before obtaining records.

My point being that the NSA want to log all calls from US citizens.It is also logical that they also want to log peoples personnel political views.The Internet is the perfect tool for this.Why go through all the legal hassle and congress problems.Simple operate a site and attract people without breaking any laws.Perfect soloution to solving some problems.Does this prove ATS is NSA of course not that as l have stated before Congress would have a problem with Bush.So no l cannot prove ATS is NSA.

zeed- have you ever read about Hank Asher and his Matrix program on finding info on people. He really seemed to want to help the government after 9/11 and I think he unknowingly has really stepped into more then he intended..There was a good article in Vanity Fair Magazine in December 2004 that explaned it.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Thank you SkepticOverlord for defending ATS in such magnificent forum that anyone with common sense would join us in standing and contributing with thunderous applause.

Maybe people with commonsense are not the best qualified in matters concerning conspiracy theories, I emphasize THEORY as due to all the laws that any govt organization would be breaking in using a site such as ATS leaves us only able to cast suspicions

I am still amazed that some people believe that ATS, owners, staff, and select members are part of or party to COINTELPRO.

Why?

Past govt has operated falsely before.Bush and certain members are violating Congress and 1974 Privacy laws.

I`m amazed that people on here can defend a group of people they `ve never met.As a poster previously stated he could quiet easily set up a web site in a very short space of time.You don`t have any laws to obied by.If the NSA cannot legally obtain peoples Internet records it makes sense that they would set up false web sites and attract the people they deem worthy of watching.

I`m also amazed at how many people on a site that believes it`s govt of NWO etc etc etc couldn't`t do such a thing.

However, sometimes even the best efforts to convey the truth with facts, data, and human experience, ends up clouded in a shroud of auto-skepticism, denial and outright unfounded allegations.

Or the best efforts to hide the truth.

You cannot prove UFO`s, Ghosts,Indigo children,Area 51,JFK assassination,ESP,Vampires,Werewolves,Mythical Beasts,9/11 etc etc etc.

Such is the mind of many conspiracy theorists.

And that is wrong.

To mock the very foundation on which the site has set its beginnings.It`s a sad day that people come here with theories only to be set right by a moderating team such as ATS`s.And to be told that is the mind of theorists.

This comment and Majic`s speaks volumes.It shows exactly where ATS has its values.

Although l have scratched a few people it isn`t anything like the mockery people could face in mainstream sites.I may in the eyes of Skeptic and the mods be seen to be any other troll, but frankly the tactics employed on here by them leads people to get bothered and reply aggressively.And they know it.Whilst there are trolls out there and need to be controlled using the troll excuse on anybody in a way to mock and put down is a classic tactic used in business.You make yourself known "you are the top dog and everybody else is below you".Skeptic`s back round in business makes him more than qualified to do this.Classic boardroom tactics.

[edit on 17-12-2006 by UM_Gazz]

[edit on 19-12-2006 by zeed85]

Please check out how difficult it is to monitor people legally.Can you see why it would benifit NSA just to set up a web site.


judiciary.senate.gov...

Section 102 of FISA would authorize large scale warrantless surveillance and the indefinite retention of citizens communications for future datamining.

[edit on 19-12-2006 by zeed85]

Originally posted by zeed85
If the NSA cannot legally obtain peoples Internet records it makes sense that they would set up false web sites and attract the people they deem worthy of watching.

Several dozen U.S. state's attorney generals, as well as federal prosecutors, have successfully brought charges against websites that behave in a manner differently than their publicly posted Privacy Policies. If you believe we are doing something we shouldn't, or have evidence that we are, you should take action. It's a serious thing for a website to treat visitor privacy any different than what's stated in their privacy policy.

You're skirting about with lots of unfounded accusations and innuendo. Since we cannot prove to you that you're wrong, why not prove it to yourself? Or... is this just more entertaining... casting dispersions on hard working people?

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord


Several dozen U.S. state's attorney generals, as well as federal prosecutors, have successfully brought charges against websites that behave in a manner differently than their publicly posted Privacy Policies. If you believe we are doing something we shouldn't, or have evidence that we are, you should take action. It's a serious thing for a website to treat visitor privacy any different than what's stated in their privacy policy.

Maybe it`s already being discussed.Several Congressman are asking questions to the Bush admin regarding release of Secret documentation.I cannot predict the future anymore than you would admit to breaking or your site breaking Federal laws.This is being discussed in the open, people read this site.

You're skirting about with lots of unfounded accusations and innuendo. Since we cannot prove to you that you're wrong, why not prove it to yourself? Or... is this just more entertaining... casting dispersions on hard working people?

I disagree I`m merely discussing a theory about govt Dis info on the net and whether this site is a Cointelpro type operation.

[edit on 19-12-2006 by zeed85]

Also the info on attracting new members with some knowledge to the site is interesting.

Be nice to see if you could beat the wilderness who currently have 50 members of Congress and some regular contributors with expertise.

that would then drop my theory dead in the water.I hope I`m proved wrong and ATS is merely a big Commercial Enterprise.

I have more faith in SO and the 3Amigos than to reduce their hard work and efforts to maintain a safe place for alternative discussion as something nefarious.

Sure, there might be people taking notice of this site out there, but if we handle ourselves in the manner we have been, surely they will see there is no unified threat here to be dissimilated.

Originally posted by GENERAL EYES
surely they will see there is no unified threat here to be dissimilated.

Certainly there is a unified threat, and we represent a very serious but difficult to manage threat.

We're not organizing protests -- though protesters can be informed here...

We're not spawning or promoting special interest groups -- though members can learn much here...

We're not promoting alternative candidates -- though their supporters can discuss issues here...

We're not pushing one conspiracy theory over another -- though all are discussed in detail here...

ATS is rather agnostic when it comes to identifying a specific threat to the "powers that be."

But... I think ATS represents a much more serious "threat", one that is impossible to track, follow, quantify, record, and condense into a status report. We try to inspire people to think for themselves and look beyond what the media feeds them. What great threat can there be?

People are ultimitely responsibly for their own actions - and how they choose to react to or interpret information along the lines of subjects posted on ATS.

I think it's completely charming here, and I've considered and weighed all sides of this debate from every angle.

And now I'll shush, because I've already said too much.

Have you ever been to a really big house party?

You know the sort, where the host has opened their house to the general public, they've laid out a really nice spread of hors d'ouvres, maybe even a buffet, and in the other room they've set up an open bar with top shelf liquor, and even have volunteers to work the kitchen to keep the food stocked, and the bar to keep the guests happy. A few close friends of the host show the newer guests around, where the bathroom is, where the coat closet is, where the smoking area is, and so forth, and in the beginning, everyone has a really great time. It's fun, people talk, share information, talk about themselves and each other, and in general, they network together.

Then "that guy" goes and gets drunk. You know "that guy"...the one who didn't know when to stop? The one who's convinced he's not only the life of the party, but also the wittiest, most well-informed of the whole house?

There people will be, clustered in a rather intimate discussion about something, and "that guy" comes stumbling up, directly into the personal space of everyone there, and interrupts the conversation with such witticisms as "see...see...see..." and "thing is..." and "no...no...no...here's what you gotta do..." and so forth... and pretty soon, the group melts away, people get disgusted with the conversation, and wander off elsewhere. "That guy", not quite getting the hint, wanders off to do this to another group, after grabbing another drink.

Soon they are making a hell of a ruckus. Guests have stopped enjoying the spectacle of a man who's drunk too much, and instead are just becoming irritated at him. He's walking around, bumping into people, becoming increasingly aggressive, and outright insulting people.

At first, people try to talk sense to the guy. They suggest some coffee, that he calm down, that he maybe have a "clear beer" (aka water) or go lay down in the shower for a while. But "that guy" will have none of it. He's convinced of his own wit, and that the attention he is receiving from these very patient souls means that he must be doing something right. Perhaps it is the only time he ever gets attention period.

And so, staggering, "that guy" continues not only to make an ass of himself, but to offend those around him. It doesn't matter how much people tell him he's offending the host, it doesn't matter how much people tell him to stop, "that guy" simply won't stop. No one really has the authority to kick the guy out of the party except the host, and perhaps his closest friends. However, it has become increasingly clear that "that guy" isn't welcome.

The host, not wanting to be a hardass (after all, it's a party, people should be having fun and enjoying themselves) demonstrates the patience of Job, and he appeals to "that guy" in as polite and considerate a fashion as possible, and certainly more so than the inane ramblings of "that guy" merit. He tries to talk sense, he tries to be stern, he tries to use every method possible short of busting "that guy" in the chops.

"That guy," however, chooses instead to continue to insult the host, insult the house, insult the party, the volunteers, and the guests. Left with no other option, the host and a friend call "that guy" a taxi and gently, but firmly, usher him into it. He is not invited to the next party...but you can be sure he'll show back up, not even knowing how very unwelcome he is, or why.


Skeptic Overlord, you and the rest of ATS have been fine hosts, you have a great house (ATS), and you throw a helluva good party (the forums), and for the most part, your guests are fine people. And we thank you for going to all the trouble just to ensure your guests have a good time here. 99.99% of your guests really appreciate it.

I'm afraid, however, after reading zeed85 for page after page after page of the same tripe, the same insults, and the same refusal to even recognize how much he is offending everyone here, as far as I'm concerned, zeed85 is "that guy". His apologies will continue to ring hollow and sarcastic, he will continue to commit the same offenses, and he will continue to live in self-denial about doing anything wrong. He is the very embodiment of everything that makes "that guy" so detrimental to any good party, and I don't think a single one of us will shed a tear if you and your friends decide to call him a taxi and send him on his way.

You'll probably get quite a few cheers, actually.


Zeed85 - We've all repeatedly asked you to stop, to apologize, and to lay off the staff, especially Majic, whom you STILL insult, and have added yet another senior member to the staff. You cannot even claim ignorance of etiquette at this point, since it's been pointed out to you almost as often as your baseless claims that ATS is Cointel, so I can't even give you the benefit of calling you ignorant. You're either being an arse on purpose, or you're really too mentally deficient to ever "get it". Either way, you've branded yourself as "that guy" at the party. I hope your lame and unsubstantiated convictions that "ATS must be cointel since it can't prove it isn't," was really worth making the rest of us wish you'd just leave. I really hope you got something out of it. At least then, ONE person would have benefitted from your presence here.

Originally posted by thelibra



Zeed85 - We've all repeatedly asked you to stop, to apologize, and to lay off the staff, especially Majic, whom you STILL insult, and have added yet another senior member to the staff. You cannot even claim ignorance of etiquette at this point, since it's been pointed out to you almost as often as your baseless claims that ATS is Cointel, so I can't even give you the benefit of calling you ignorant. You're either being an arse on purpose, or you're really too mentally deficient to ever "get it". Either way, you've branded yourself as "that guy" at the party. I hope your lame and unsubstantiated convictions that "ATS must be cointel since it can't prove it isn't," was really worth making the rest of us wish you'd just leave. I really hope you got something out of it. At least then, ONE person would have benefitted from your presence here.

This is a discussion site discussing disinfo.There`s no house party involved here.I`ve never neither have you meet the hosts.

Anyway thanx you for your analogy.

Members Only

Originally posted by zeed85
Be nice to see if you could beat the wilderness who currently have 50 members of Congress and some regular contributors with expertise.

Actually, one of the reasons I'm so big on courtesy has to do with my plans for PTS.

To attract politicians, their staff members, commentators, pundits, authors, luminaries and other political "players" (I would love to have Al Gore on PTS someday to discuss Global Warming, for example), we need to offer an environment conducive to their interest and participation.

If they are faced with being shouted down, called names and roundly abused by a bunch of trolls, they won't show up and I won't blame them.

More fundamentally, however, rudeness on the part of a few discourages and drives away those who are courteous and capable of discussing issues like adults.

Even worse, rude members are rarely the sharpest knives in the drawer, invariably violate the Terms And Conditions in other ways and more often than not are nothing more than living examples of why the Internet is a terrible substitute for good parenting.

Ultimately, to tolerate rudeness is to exchange intelligent members for stupid ones, intelligent debate for name-calling, meaningful discussion for flame wars and to go down a one-way path many now-defunct online communities have followed to their enduring dismay.

Thus I consider courtesy not only an excellent litmus test for membership, but necessary to the survival of an online community that actively encourages critical thinking and civil disagreement on a wide range of issues.

No big mystery there.

Politicians Without Government Ties

Originally posted by zeed85
that would then drop my theory dead in the water.

I'm not sure how having a lot of politicians participating in our forums would necessarily shoot down the "COINTELPRO" theory, but then I have yet to see anything other than assumptions, speculation and demonstrable falsehoods offered as evidence for that theory, so I'll leave that to you.

TANSTAAFL

Originally posted by zeed85
I hope I`m proved wrong and ATS is merely a big Commercial Enterprise.

Though I wouldn't consider it a "big Commercial Enterprise" right now, if there's a way to make an Internet community like ATS wildly successful in a business sense without compromising the values that have made it what it is, I'm all for it.

Originally posted by Majic

Actually, one of the reasons I'm so big on courtesy has to do with my plans for PTS.

I`m glad you are.

To attract politicians, their staff members, commentators, pundits, authors, luminaries and other political "players" (I would love to have Al Gore on PTS someday to discuss Global Warming, for example), we need to offer an environment conducive to their interest and participation.

Maybe ATS/PTS should charge a subscription, such as the wilderness.I pay regularly maybe then people such as thelibra can get over his Troll obsession plus ATS can reduce its membership to a more constructive intelligent audience.

If they are faced with being shouted down, called names and roundly abused by a bunch of trolls, they won't show up and I won't blame them.

I don`t think that his a reasonable argument.Politicians face daily mockery.There trained to deal with all types of personalities.Have you every researched the person would first started using the term Troll?
You`ll be surprised the reason for it.

More fundamentally, however, rudeness on the part of a few discourages and drives away those who are courteous and capable of discussing issues like adults.

People can be rude in al manner of conversation.My partner studied PR she free admits they trained her to insult politely.

Even worse, rude members are rarely the sharpest knives in the drawer, invariably violate the Terms And Conditions in other ways and more often than not are nothing more than living examples of why the Internet is a terrible substitute for good parenting.

The membership here a capable as other humans are of deciding a persons points,evidence and intelligence without members such as yourself and thelibra pointing them out.So far you`ve insinuated i`m rude unintelligent and a Troll.
Please you`ve more than compensated for any name calling that l have done.

Ultimately, to tolerate rudeness is to exchange intelligent members for stupid ones, intelligent debate for name-calling, meaningful discussion for flame wars and to go down a one-way path many now-defunct on line communities have followed to their enduring dismay.

Maybe you and thelibra should re-frame from posting in this thread, you`ve made your point concerning my opinion ATS COULD be a Cointelpro type operation.

Thus I consider courtesy not only an excellent litmus test for membership, but necessary to the survival of an online community that actively encourages critical thinking and civil disagreement on a wide range of issues.

Maybe you should rethink you situation on this as l`ve stated before.This is not a place for people to mock others, if you don`t believe in the thread fine.We don`t have dictatorship here.By stating ATS in this thread doesn`t constitute an infringement T&C`s.

Please do as you state, keep it polite and on subject.

[edit on 21-12-2006 by zeed85]

Re-Framing The Debate

Originally posted by zeed85
Maybe you and thelibra should re-frame from posting in this thread, you`ve made your point concerning my opinion ATS COULD be a Cointelpro type operation.

I have a better idea: you can "re-frame" from posting on ATS altogether, because I'm tired of asking you to stop with the sniping, and you've convinced me that you're not going to.

Please note that I'm not labeling you a troll, just pointing out that this business of habitually employing flagrant troll tactics and polluting threads with obnoxious, self-indulgent hyperbole is unwelcome.

Topical discussion requires, first and foremost, a regard for the topic. Despite your best efforts, this thread isn't about you and your lofty opinions of yourself, nor your opinions of other members, and your insistence on injecting personal insults and pointless vainglory into your posts is decidedly off-topic.

Courtesy does not require agreement, nor does it preclude passionate debate, nor does it in any way hinder the rights or abilities of members to hold any opinions they choose.

Courtesy simply involves exhibiting a modicum of respect for others, whatever their opinions may be, and for some reason this seems to pose an insurmountable challenge for you.

Keeping Things Polite And On Subject

Originally posted by zeed85
Please do as you state, keep it polite and on subject.

Of course. Let's start by eliminating the biggest impediment to that goal.

Previously, I offered you a choice. You have made your choice clear enough, and I have taken action accordingly.

I pray you will find a community more suited to your intellectual and behavioral standards, because clearly ATS is not.

Good luck, and farewell.

Foiling Counter-Intelligence Operations

Meanwhile, I want to make it clear to my fellow ATSers that although I'm not terribly fond of abusive behavior (for which I just banned zeed85), reasonably civil discussion of the topic itself -- pro or con -- is always welcome.

Indeed, while I personally find the "COINTELPRO" accusations baseless, I think it's healthy for members to maintain a healthy skepticism toward ATS, government and pretty much everything.

I do hope that won't be confused with sarcasm, baiting and disregarding the terms & conditions, however, because those have nothing to do with health, skepticism or ATS membership.

I've only been here one day and I've already seen disinformation in a good amount of threads as well as some obvious censorship issues. I don't know what a rat looks like but I can sure smell a rat. How naive of me to come here not expecting this.

well flippant, allow me to welcome you as one member to another. (sometimes its just nice that fellow member say hi vs staff. feels more genuine to me, the staff is supposed to be nice lol)

but as to your post, disinformation is sometimes that. deliberate misinformation to throw a person or group off. sometimes however, its simply someone sharing what they feel to be factual information that they simply are ill-informed about, so to label that as disinfo is kind of unfair. ignorance is common and to be expected, even forgivable so long as the person who is ignorant of a topic is open minded enough to listen and learn and is able to change their opinion based on more accurate information.

example: many people in the 9-11 discussion threads drew many of their conclusions regarding explosives based on less than accruate information. i had made many posts about what explosives can/cant do simply to provide information. i dont believe there were explosives in the towers but im not out to change anyones mind. i simply want people to draw conclusions and form opinions with factual information. if what i provide changes their mind, so be it. if what i provide simply reinforces their opinions, also ok. i dont care what people think so long as they are thinking.

but, in my time here, ive not seen any blatant censorship honestly. ive seen mods edit posts based on the T&C for using vulgarity or direct attacks, but is that out of line? i once, while angry about a post, asked a member if he was stoned or just ignorant. well, that was edited and subsequently i was very politely reminded of the T&C. but even with the edit of my post, the more polite and further, the idea of my message still came through. was i offended taht my insults were edited? not in the least. the moderators are SUPPOSED to do that. i see a lot of people decry the site for stifling 'free speech' and so forth. well, maybe not a lot...its more than one but less than 1000. regardless, its been pointed out many times this site isnt a country. its a website owned by 3 very honorable gentlemen who give us leave to discuss any idea we want even if they disagree with it. its like....its like this is their house and we're allowed to come over, drink their beer, watch their bigscreen and smoke on their deck as long as we follow a few simple rules.

think of it that way, its their house, their rules. any of us who dont like it are welcome to go to the party down the street.

as for me, ill chill here with the boys and girls.

Should`t this thread be asking/answering the question`s regarding Cointelpro, rather than side tracking the issue.
Other conspiracy sites are asking questions of ATS`s credentials.It`s only natural for people seeking truths to ask whether ATS is Cointelpro that be because there ill informed inexperienced, stupid etc etc etc should`t matter, there is plenty of ATS being Cointelpro on other sites.

Is there any future plans for ATS admin to seek legal action against the web sites linking Mr Bailey or the rumors that ATS is hunting out and destroying other small sites (eg the E Mail that is on a few other sites).

As for this being somebodies house party it is responsible to make sure you haven`t been invited to the local crack house.To make sure everything in that strangers party is legal and above board.

You would`t want to be at a party hosted by strangers when it gets raiding by the police and suddenly you release you should have checked it out a bit before going.

[edit on 5-2-2007 by st111]

Originally posted by st111
Should`t this thread be asking/answering the question`s regarding Cointelpro, rather than side tracking the issue.

Well, this thread began as a counter to a series of lies, distortions, and exaggerations posted about us and our members on a few websites.

Other conspiracy sites are asking questions of ATS`s credentials.

Our credentials are our members and what they post. We (top-tier admin) have taken a lot of flack for posting ideas that may be contrary to popularized conspiracy theories (for example, I believe a plan hit the Pentagon, but that there was still a conspiracy... for that I've been labeled as a lot of unsavory things)... so we're taking more of a back seat and enabling the "soap box" rather than standing on it.

It`s only natural for people seeking truths to ask whether ATS is Cointelpro

Traditional "CoIntelPro" was small scale and/or within a controlled environment. It's not logical to assume a wide-open free-topic environment like ATS would be such an operation. However, sites with limited contributors are much more likely candidates, such as the site throwing slings and arrows in our direction. Interesting twist no?

Is there any future plans for ATS admin to seek legal action against the web sites linking Mr Bailey or the rumors that ATS is hunting out and destroying other small sites (eg the E Mail that is on a few other sites).

E-mail? U2U me a link to that! I haven't heard about anything like that.

Unless someone gets really ugly, we have no "legal plans" other than seeking to protect the contributions our members make under the creative commons license. We continually find our member's content being used without proper credit or link.

To make sure everything in that strangers party is legal and above board.

Our Terms & Conditions and Privacy Policy are very clear. In fact, I've often advised detractors to contact their state's attorney general office if they feel something is amiss. It is a rather serious offense for a website to operate in a manner contrary to their stated privacy policy... and if they fear we're not, then they should take action.
(We're not the least bit concerned that any in-depth investigation would harm us.)



It all comes down to one of two things....

1) We're very big, and constantly getting bigger. Many will be jealous of that, especially if they perceive us as hurting the traffic of their website. So they seek to knock us down by making false accusations.

2) Our members tend to be critical thinkers and don't blindly accept every conspiracy theory. This can cause problems for people seeking to make a profit on specific theories that have been demolished by our members. So they seek to knock us down by making false accusations.

judiciary.senate.gov...

Particular interest should be paid to the end paragraphs relating to Cisco "Service Independent Intercept Architecture" , Verisign and CALEA.