Some questions about PAK-FA

This forum seems to have guys who have some knowledge about aircrafts can anyone please clear some of my queries about PAK FA :

1 Most sources say that the Su 37 will be the prototype for this bird but some source said that both the Su 37 and Mig MFI will be the prototypes

which one is more authentic?

2 Will the plasma stealth technology be used in this bird ?

3 What do you guys think about the stealth property of the bird ?

4 One Sukhoi scientist was quoted saying that it will be far better than the F-16 and Rafile and as much stealthy as the F 22 but with better manuvarablity (multiple nozzle ) .....what are your comments in this issue?

5 Some Indians claim that India is/will be a partner of Russia in this project ...but didnt find a single article to support this claim ...can anyone please enlighten me on this issue?


[edit on 30-11-2005 by prelude]

The one thing I can guarantee you is that not one of us here on ATS 'knows' the answers to your questions. What we can give you though are our thoughts and opinions and I'd like to give you mine;

1 Pak Fa appears to be just a Sukhoi design owing nothing to the MiG, although the mooted Sukhoi-MiG merger may change that if it happens, all previous prototypes such as the S.37 (which I presume you mean, not the Su-37 which is a Flanker) and MiG 1.44 should be considered as technology demonstrators like the BAe EAP, F15-ACTIVE or Rockwell-MBB X-31 rather than prototypes for the Pak-Fa.

2. If Russias claims about plasma stealth and the degree to which they have developed it are true then it should be certain to be a feature of Pak fa , if they are not true then there would be more chance of seeing 'sweet fa' than Pak Fa.

3. This is something none of us can know, there will be American's who say it is nowhere near Raptor and there will be Russian fans and anti Americans who say it is better - all of which is moonshine until something gets built.

4. The Sukhoi scientist had better be right, after all, to quote a 'Flight' editorial of 1980 talking about the Eurofighter

"the new fighter has got to be better than those that have gone before it such as the F-18L (this was the alternative to Typhoon in those days) otherwise there is no point at all in spending the billions it will cost to develop"

I'd say that is as true today of any new fighter as it was then.

5. I'm not the best qualified here by any means to expound on this but with India being the main export customer for the Flanker and developing its own quite advanced aerospace industry - plus of course having the money to spend- I think this is more than likely.

To complete waynos:

1. Both planes will be prototypes for PAK-FA in meaning of technology demonstration testbeds for real PAK-FA shaped plane. It means that we will not see production versions of S-37 Berkut or MiG 1.42.

2. Plasma stealth of 1st and 2nd generation is used on current modernised fighters so there is no reason not to use it in PAK-FA.

3. Russian planes usualy use stealth technologies there, where they dont limit other functions of the aircraft. So without mention impact of use of plasma stealth, I can say that it will have bigger dBsm (radar cross-section) than F-22

4. Originaly PAK-FA was competitor to JSF, but then the project transferred to bigger plane, something between F-22 and JSF. BTW, every new plane is better than F-16, because F-16 is older generation. The most modern F-16 Block 60 is maximal 4,5 generation plane - in russian standards), while Rafale or PAK-FA is 5th generation fighter. However we must wait for some real PAK-FA prototype and then will be time for discussion, if it is good or bad.

5. India is unpredictible country. It was thinking about joining PAK-FA development, but Lockheed/Martin offered to join JSF. This is not closed now and it will be the great battle for money.

Originally posted by matej


5. India is unpredictible country

Now that's what i'm talking about!!
IMHO India has a phobia in engaging the US in any long-term defence deal which will involve, tech transfer, maintenance etc etc..

The PAK-FA is not talked about much noawdays..I will try and get some valuable insight on that and more about the future of the IAF.. LCA/new fighter tender/MCA/JSF/PAK-FA et all..

On a more immediate note, I also have a good deal of info on the Osiraq event of 82 and am willing to post an indepth thread
(a/c photos,missoin flight path,a/c involved and their formations,pilot photos, and pilot recount excerpts) on it if ppl are interested.
Source: Aircraft Comabt mag that I just acquired.
Appetiser:
It seems that 'Ilan Ramon', the Israeli guy who died onboard Space Shuttle Columbia, was one of the rookie F-16A pilots in the Osiraq mission!

Indian Defence minister, Pranab Mukherjee was in Russia confirmed India's participation in the 5th generation stealthy fighter development.

Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee has invited Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) MiG to present its concept of fifth generation fighter aircraft before the top brass of Indian Air Force even as New Delhi has expressed its desire to join the Russian project.

"MiG had presented its concept of fifth generation fighter aircraft when I visited them yesterday. I invited them to make a presentation in India for the IAF officers," Mukherjee told reporters before leaving for home tonight at the end of his three-day Moscow visit.

In the course of his press conference at the Russian Defence Ministry yesterday, Mukherjee had for the first time publicly acknowledged that India is keen to take part in the development and financing of the fifth generation fighter aircraft with Russia, which would rival the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) being developed by the United States.

Russia had for the first time made this offer to NDA government three years ago after successful completion of Sukhoi Su-30MKI project, which already incorporates some features of the futuristic super fighter plane.

Local defence experts have noted that China, a major buyer of Russian military hardware has not been offered stake in the project. France is the only other foreign nation, which has also been invited besides India.

Russian Air Force had identified Sukhoi Corporation as the designer of the fifth generation fighter aircraft, which has already made presentation in India. However, India seems to be in favour of a lighter aircraft, in which RAC MiG specialises.

On the last day of his Moscow visit the Defence Minister addressed the cadets and staff of the Russian General Staff Academy and visited NPOM, the Russian partner of Indo-Russian 'BrahMos' joint venture for the manufacture of supersonic cruise missiles.

Describing his three-day stay in Moscow and talks with the Russian leadership including President Vladimir Putin and Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov "quite successful", Mukherjee said that long pending Intellectual Property Right (IPR) agreement has been finalised and it would be signed during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's Moscow visit early December.

IPR agreement would help in resolving the problem of spares, he said.

India and Russia will also sign agreement on the joint development and production of 145 medium multi-role transport aircraft (MTA) of which IAF will get 45 aircraft for replacing ageing AN-32 fleet.

www.outlookindia.com...

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Defence sources said India was not happy with the heavier version of the fifth generation aircraft promoted by Sukhoi and New Delhi would like to compare it with a lighter plane offered by MiG.
www.hindu.com...

^^This is the Mig-I-2000 ..... ( it was designed by the Mukhamedov design house and is now in Mig's posession). This is the very plane India have favoured to collaborate with Russia over.

Its F-35 class.

India has not preferred Sukhoi's heavier, higher tech fighter proposal (F/A-22 class) .. perhaps because of funding volumes that it would need (the F/A-22 programme has costed USA 40 billion $ alredy and it would need 40 billion more link .... India is obviously not prepared to shell out even half this amount for a fighter project)

The Sukhoi proposal for a F/A-22 class, high-tech stealth fighter rejected by India)

external image


Its also very interesting that France - an another aerospace giant has also been offered a role

[edit on 1-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]

[edit on 1-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]

[edit on 1-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by prelude
1 Most sources say that the Su 37 will be the prototype for this bird but some source said that both the Su 37 and Mig MFI will be the prototypes

which one is more authentic?

Neither ... it will be a totally new airframe

2 Will the plasma stealth technology be used in this bird ?

Dunno for sure ....there are no media reports about this... but i would'nt be surprised if it comes with Plasma stealth

3 What do you guys think about the stealth property of the bird ?

In the same class as the F-35 in terms of stealth .... but IMHO it wont be as stealthy and as advanced as the F/A-22

4 One Sukhoi scientist was quoted saying that it will be far better than the F-16 and Rafile and as much stealthy as the F 22 but with better manuvarablity (multiple nozzle ) .....what are your comments in this issue?

Surely, it will be better than both the Rafale and the F-16 ... and that Sukhoi technician said that the 5th gen PAK-FA they were proposing was as "advanced" as the F/A-22 and not as "stealthy"

5 Some Indians claim that India is/will be a partner of Russia in this project ...but didnt find a single article to support this claim ...can anyone please enlighten me on this issue?

Here are the articles .... these are only about 2 week old articles .... the confirmation of India's participation only came out 2 weeks back when the Defence minister Pranab visited Moscow and signed pacts with Russia ..

As Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee entered the conference hall at the Russian Defence Ministry, here, with his counterpart Sergei Ivanov, there seemed to be a look of satisfaction on his face at having worked out certain agreements which Prime Minister Manmohan Singh would sign during his short visit in, early December, which would eventually herald a new era in the relationship between the two countries.

Accompanying officials described the agreements reached during the meeting as historic.

Mr Mukherjee pointed out that the almost $ 10 billion worth of defence trade which India was undertaking with Russia was the largest New Delhi had with any one country.

A statement issued by the Indian side after meeting said that some of the major programmes considered between the two countries were production of the fifth generation aircraft, joint development of multi- functional transport aircraft, procurement of three more frigates under an existing programme.

The two countries will be investing to the tune of three-four thousand crores on developing the multi- functional aircraft that would have a total pay load of about 20 tonnes and would work as a middle level alternative to transport aircrafts with the armed forces of the two countries. [/b

The Russian side made available, at the meting, the use of Glonas system to the ISRO (Indian Space Research Org..). They would work together to launch more satellites with the view to have greater presence in the space and strengthening the Glonas. It would help Russia to match their Glonas with the American GPS and the European Galileo system.

www.tribuneindia.com...

India and Russia will renew defence cooperation programme when the current 10-year programme expires in 2010, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said here.

"After 2010 we will review the progress and have another 10-year programme," he said on Thursday on completion of his three-day visit to Russia. "Our defence cooperation with Russia is a continuous process and some projects will overlap the 2010 threshold."

The Minister said he had asked the MiG company to make a presentation on the fifth generation plane that Russia wanted to build jointly with India.

Defence sources said India was not happy with the heavier version of the fifth generation aircraft promoted by Sukhoi and New Delhi would like to compare it with a lighter plane offered by MiG.

In a keynote address at the General Staff Academy of the Russian armed forces on Thursday, Mr. Mukherjee said: "Today the bedrock of India's relations with the Russian Federation is the multi-faceted military relations of which the most dynamic sector is our cooperation in the military-technical area."

The Minister said Russia "has been, and remains the largest source of our arms, weapon systems and technology imports." He emphasised that the recent strengthening of defence ties with many other countries "is not at the expense of our traditional friendly relations with Russia which remain unique, time-tested and steadfast."

Mr. Mukherjee explained that India had strong strategic and economic interests in Central Asia that included ensuring continuation of stable and secular regimes so that they did not become bases for terrorists and religious fundamentalists, maintaining links with defence establishments and production facilities, enhancing trade and investment, and tapping into local energy sources.

full article >> www.hindu.com...

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Video of the meeting between Pranab and Puting >> www.tribuneindia.com...

_________

Speaking at a joint press conference, Mukherjee said India will take part in the development and financing of a fifth generation super fighter aircraft project with Russia.

"We exchanged views. Active contacts are going on with Russian side. Our air force is in contact with their Russian counterpart, HAL and Sukhoi Corporation are talking on manufacturing aspects.

"We are keen on taking part in the development and financing of the fifth generation fighter," Mukherjee said.

He also announced that Russia's Defence Ministry has agreed to provide access to the Russian GLONASS global navigational satellite system for military application to India, an alternative to Pentagon-controlled US Global Positioning System (GPS).

He underscored that India is the "sole" country in the world with which Moscow has a long-term defence cooperation programme and has opened its whole military industrial complex for the Indian defence complex.

"This is because of highest level trust and shared national security interests in Eurasia and the whole world," Ivanov pointed out, mentioning India as an emerging economic and military power on the global scale, friendly to Russia and the largest democracy.

Later, the Defence Minister was welcomed in the Kremlin by Russian President Vladimir Putin, who noted "high level of trust" in bilateral defence cooperation and reiterated Moscow's readiness to further expand military ties with New Delhi.

"It is very significant that interaction between our defence departments are developing in the best way and military-technical cooperation is developing most intensively in the high level of trust," Putin said.

He underscored that political ties between the two countries have acquired "unprecedentdly" high level.

full article ...

Look at what Richard Kirkland, vice president of Lockheed Martin says in this interview:

"My vision of the future is that one day India is going to be flying the F-35. I truly believe it. There is no comparison for the F-35—the French don't offer it, the Russians don't offer it. It only exists for US partners. One day the US and India will co-develop what's going to be next."

203.200.89.68...

In addition, LM displayed F-35's at Aero India 2005 earlier this year in Indian Air Force colours !

view pic of LM's display of F-35 in IAF colours

_____________

Look at what the Europeans have offered >>

Eurofighter offered to India

NEW DELHI, NOV 24: In a new twist to the Indian quest for the 126 medium range combat aircraft (MRCA), a fifth bidder has appeared on the scene nearly a year after the request for information were invited.
Officials attribute the sudden emergence of EADS offering its Eurofighter Typhoon for the prestigious Indian order as a strong bid to keep the American Lockheed Martin and Boeing out of contention.

The four contenders so far were: two American companies including Lockheed Martin(offerign the latest block 70 F-16), Boeing(offerign the block 2 F/A-18 super hornet), French company Dassault(offerign the block 2 F/A-18 super hornet) and Russian MiG(offerign the new Mig-35).

However, talking to FE, Mahmut Turker, sales director, military aircraft EADS Defence and Security, said, “We are in New Delhi on a fact-finding mission and have had talks with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as well other top government officials.”

The EADS team will be visiting Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and explore opportunities for possible expansion of existing ventures.

Currently, French Dassault Aviation’s Mirage 2000-V is said to be the frontrunner in the race. But the German EADS team is understood to be making the point that the Eurofighter Typhoon will have a “generational difference” with the Mirage.

Unwilling to reveal their strategy, Mr Turker explained that, “EADS is aware of India’s requirement. The company is ready to work with specifications and issues relating to outsourcing and weapon systems to be on board will be addressed during various discussions.”

full article ..


[edit on 1-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]

While all this goes on ... India is developing it very own independant stealth fighter - the MCA, a continuation of the LCA..

[Work on the indegenous stealth fighter gets underway

BANGALORE: The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the aircraft design house of the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) in Bangalore has formed a core team to design a medium combat aircraft (MCA), an advanced multi-role fighter with stealth capabilities.

Besides incorporating many features of the indigenous single-engine Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) that is undergoing flight trials, the MCA will use radar-absorbent materials to reduce detection by radars, making it a stealth fighter.

The new generation fighter is expected to replace the Jaguar and the Mirage-2000 fleet of the Indian Air Force in the coming decades. “The design work is getting ready. It should be completed in a year,” DRDO sources told DNA.

The advanced aircraft will be build with extensive use of composites and have smart sensors like micro electronic mechanical systems (Mems), that can automatically detect strains or weaknesses in the airframe or wings. “The IAF is giving a lot of inputs for the design,” sources said.

Once the design is frozen, the DRDO would present the project to the government for sanction of the MCA project estimated to cost about Rs 6000 to Rs 8000 crore. The MCA will be a 12 tonne weight class fighter with a maximum take-off weight of about 18 tonnes.

It is to be powered by two “thrust vector’’ engines that facilitate controlling the flight by controlling its thrust, giving the pilot greater manoeuvrability.

But there are snags in developing Kaveri, the indigenous engine that will be used for the LCA and upgraded for the MCA. The DRDO has invited bids from global engine makers to participate in building the engine.

“The stealth features and engine are two areas that we are weak. We will bridge this gap,” sources said.

Many systems and technologies developed in India for the LCA, Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) and the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) like the flight control systems and composite wings will be used in the MCA.

“It will take about six to eight years for the first aircraft to be developed,” sources said.

Read full article >> link

Originally posted by matej
2. Plasma stealth of 1st and 2nd generation is used on current modernised fighters so there is no reason not to use it in PAK-FA.

Please provide a link that proves plasma stealth is used on any fighter.

3. Russian planes usualy use stealth technologies there, where they dont limit other functions of the aircraft. So without mention impact of use of plasma stealth, I can say that it will have bigger dBsm (radar cross-section) than F-22

Please provide all evidence that suggests that Russia has any operational stealth aircraft.

Please provide evidence of the RCS of this Russian aircraft and also of the Raptor.

4. Originaly PAK-FA was competitor to JSF, but then the project transferred to bigger plane, something between F-22 and JSF. BTW, every new plane is better than F-16, because F-16 is older generation. The most modern F-16 Block 60 is maximal 4,5 generation plane - in russian standards), while Rafale or PAK-FA is 5th generation fighter. However we must wait for some real PAK-FA prototype and then will be time for discussion, if it is good or bad.

You can not claim a paper airplane is better then one with a proven UNDEFEATED combat record. That is plain loony.

The F-16 is just as good as the Rafale, and with US support systems is far superior in real world combat.

1. If you need link to believe, here is one:

www.hitechweb.szm.sk...

I think that I wrote about it in english some time ago. The first plane that has 2nd generation plasma generator is Su-32. Also the proven fact is, that at least the two new manufactured Tu-160 bombers [they entered service this year] had them, together with modernized Su27/30 and MiGs-29. I know that it is hard to believe, because Russian dont want to speak about it. I had to dig this info from some persons in Keldysh Institute for a veeeeeeeery long time. And because they say me something, it cannot be secret information [because I have experience, that it is nearly impossible to find anything, what is secret in Russia].

If they be able to cut the energy consumption, simplyfied generators can be used also on missiles Ch-55 and Ch101/102 and on ICBM Topol.

2. MiG 1.42 MFI, Sukhoi Su-47 and all new designs [that were not yet made]. They are not in service, but they are there, can fly and ARE STEALTHY. I was refering to usual creation of the shape of the plane. You can compute F-22 RCS by simple use of formula from James Clerk Maxwell in any supercomputer. I am not in court of justice, I mustnt prove everything what I know.

3. F-16 is good plane, because it newer fighted against Su-27 or fight ready MiG-29 [I don want to mention poor pilots and not prepared planes in Iraq and Yugoslavia]. My uncle is pilot and is flying slovakian MiGs [one of them you can see on the left side] many times against belgian F-16. You can divine, who won..... I will post a photo on monday.



[edit on 3-12-2005 by matej]

Originally posted by matej
www.hitechweb.szm.sk...

First things first, matej, your site is in a language that most of us cannot understand. Do we need to get language translators to read your site that you continually keep linking to?

I think that I wrote about it in english some time ago. The first plane that has 2nd generation plasma generator is Su-32. Also the proven fact is, that at least the two new manufactured Tu-160 bombers [they entered service this year] had them, together with modernized Su27/30 and MiGs-29. I know that it is hard to believe, because Russian dont want to speak about it. I had to dig this info from some persons in Keldysh Institute for a veeeeeeeery long time. And because they say me something, it cannot be secret information [because I have experience, that it is nearly impossible to find anything, what is secret in Russia].

You can be rightly sure/assured that what you indicate is "hard to believe".

One, we are having to rely on your word for those assertions that you are calling "proven fact". Two, you have links or can you scan and upload those papers, notes, or whatever you obtained at Keldysh Institute backing or substantiating the assertions you have made concerning those 2nd generation plasma generators being utilized on those two new Tu-160s and those modernized Su-27/30 and MiG-29s? Nothing documented in the West indicates such as having taken place. I find it hard to believe that Russia has the money to do such modernizing, yet cannot pay even their best pilots over $300 a month or that they do not even get but about 25-40 a month flight training time. Interesting, no?


As for the MiG-1.42 MFI and Su-47 Berkut, you asserted that they are there and can fly and are stealthy. Again, in respect to the asserted stealthiness of those above aircraft, you know this because what? You have seen or know of their RCS values? They are stealthy in relation to or comparible to what, exactly? As for them flying, my understanding is that the MiG-1.42 MFI is sitting in an aircraft hanger located at the end of a long runway simply collecting dust and rust. That the MiG-1.42 MFI has not flown in years. As for the Su-47 Berkut, my understanding is that there is only one or two prototypes that is actually able to fly and that it is solely for the purpose of being a technology and airshow demonstrator. The last time that one flew was during an airshow. It will not be sold and it will not go into serial production. Neither the Mig-1.42 or Su-47 Berkut are equal or even remotely close to the F-22 in RCS values. Incidentally, is Russia or has Russia equipped those aircraft with 2nd generation plasma stealth generators? Just wondering.






seekerof

[edit on 3-12-2005 by Seekerof]

1. I know that my web is in Slovak language, but I am linking to it mainly because a lot of pictures. When I am writing about some plane, that I will ilustrate only by using one foto, it is not problem to post it directly. But when I was writing about XB-70 and all its variants and T-4 T-4M and T-4MS and all its variants, it is too much pictures to post them directly here.

2. You dont have other choice than believe or unbelieve me. I cant scan or post here mails that I have. It is the same problem, as for example with Sukhoi T-60S bomber. I saw real photos of mockup of right half of the fuselage, which was moved to SIBNIA. But I will have big problems, if I ask my friends to send me them and post it in the internet. And everything that is written on the west about subject is in form of speculations, that can for somebody indicates, that it is only fake......

3. Money in Russia is still a big problem, but when it is really needed for military purpose, they will allways find it. I was also wondering, how they can pay for those Su-32, but first machines are already in service. I can say that Slovakia, which is part of NATO, can spend only 100 flying hours per year for one pilot, but the Ministry of defence did not have any problem to pay bilions of slovak crounds for MiG-29 modernisation. Also interesting, isnt it?

4. I do not know EXACT RCS of the planes (an if I know it, I will never post it here :-), but I have enough knowledge to compute this. They are stealthy in comparison with current planes, already in service. It means, that they have lower radar reflecton than comparable current plane in size. Also many discussion here were about comparison of F/A-22 to MiG MFI or Su-47. I know that MiG 1.44 is far away from its proposed serial configuration, but you can still see details on both versions, that have big radar reflection. For example see that big tube on the upper side of the fuselage that goes from cockpit to the middle of the vertical tail surfaces. Also see the angle of supplemental vertical tail surfaces under the wing, etc...

4. MiG MFI did only two flights, but the main thing is that it was build. I dont want to argument with unbuild designs, because everybody can say "paper plane". BTW, MiG 1.44 was moved to Novosibirsk for some partial ground tests, related to PAK FA development. One prototype of Su-47 was build and widely tested. If it is only airshow demonstrator, than it is veeeeeery expensive demonstrator.....

5. "Neither the Mig-1.42 or Su-47 Berkut are equal or even remotely close to the F-22 in RCS values. " - that is exactly what i said. Because they are only TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATORS. The serial MiG 1.42 is very different in shape, compared to 1.44 demonstrator. But it still has parts (some examples described above), that are less stealthy than F-22. Those demonstrator does not have plasma generators (I did not see any exhaust pipe on the surface), but when was planned for them to enter service, they will have it.

Finaly, here is photo from one of many exercises belgian F-16 against slovak MiG-29.