The Halloween Controversy

I agree--very interesting that Saint4God decamped and declared the subject closed--I wasn't aware that he was a moderator and had that authority?? It does look like he came on here just to instruct and lecture us "unenlightened pagans" and left once he felt he'd made his point--repeatedly. I was interested in debating him about some of his assumptions, such as the one that anyone who disagrees with him either is not a Christian or at best one who is spiritually blind and deceived by the Powers of Darkness. As a Christian I would have liked to take issue with him over that. If he was looking to convert me to his brand of Christianity I'm afraid he failed. I still like Halloween. And I still don't see how he can reconcile his thoughts about paganism with the fact that he still presumably celebrates Christmas and Easter--even without Santa or the Easter Bunny, both these holidays (or holy days if you prefer) have just as much a "pagan" background as Halloween does. Too bad he left before I could ask him about this.

Originally posted by abovereproach
It does look like he came on here just to instruct and lecture us "unenlightened pagans"

I had no message for pagans on this thread. Please re-read my post for details.

Originally posted by abovereproach
I was interested in debating him about some of his assumptions, such as the one that anyone who disagrees with him either is not a Christian or at best one who is spiritually blind and deceived by the Powers of Darkness.

Where did I say this?

Originally posted by abovereproach
As a Christian I would have liked to take issue with him over that.

Kinda of LATE now, don't you think? It seems people are only "seasonally" interested in the topic. I don't know why, but will respect that. Probably the same reason why we have snooze buttons on our alarm clocks.

Originally posted by abovereproach
If he was looking to convert me to his brand of Christianity I'm afraid he failed.

Where did I say (or imply) that? If you are saved, how can you be saved?

Originally posted by abovereproach
I still like Halloween. And I still don't see how he can reconcile his thoughts about paganism with the fact that he still presumably celebrates Christmas and Easter--even without Santa or the Easter Bunny, both these holidays (or holy days if you prefer) have just as much a "pagan" background as Halloween does.

Already addressed. Would you like me to go over it again?

Originally posted by abovereproach
Too bad he left before I could ask him about this.

I haven't left. What I mean by "dead thread" is it's no longer a question or issue for the people at ATS. Any discussion is expo-facto until next year. Have you noticed that every year, the same seasonal issues come up? Every year someone begins a thread to hope there's a "dust kicker" to keep it riding high. On this thread, I volunteered to be the "dust kicker" because I think there's some important things to realize and knowledge (which is the opposite of ignorance, that which we so proudly banner to deny) to share on the topic.

Notice how many people decided to join this thread and follow it to completion about the apparent problems with Christians celebrating Halloween? I can count them on my hand. I can count them with one finger.

I'm always open for discussion, U2U or whatever, though cutting and pasting what has already been said without progression seems a little redundant, does it not? I'd be glad to move the discussion forward if anyone is willing to progress it.

I don't mind implications of me "running away", but I would like to dispell the idea that I've closed any doors.

To the person who questioned my "moderator" powers. It should be obvious that I have none, nor do I want them. That's got to be a tedious (in my opinion) job and respect those who can spend their time doing it. If no-one wants to engage specifically what I've said or talk to me about it, I have nothing further of value to add to the thread.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 2-11-2005 by saint4God]

I'm not sure such discussions can be "completed". Pretty much it's an "I'm right", "No I'm right", situation. The fact is, you can pretty much bend scripture to prove just about any point, and if you're simply using one translation then you're really leaving yourself open to unending debate. This is where we have to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling". In other words, I really, with all my heart, think Jesus would say "worry about yourself and leave them to me, get worked up about something a little more important, say, child abuse, world hunger,
greed, hatred, etc." You have to remember, it was the religious people Jesus called hypocrites and a generation of vipers. How easy that seems to be to forget.

Back on the subject of Halloween, I guess I should say that, while I love the costumes, the trick or treating, etc, the whole "trick" part of Halloween was never an issue in my life. If you didn't get something you went on to the next house, and pranks we never a part of my experience. Okay, we toilet papered my youth pastors house once, or, at least we tried, but that was more just cause we liked him. Anyway, we had a spookhouse every year to raise money for the youth group, and we had vampires, ghosts, aliens, and gore galore. I don't think we had a witch, but we did have a
fortune teller once, although it was clear it wasn't a real attempt at divination, but more of an excuse to tell a scary story. I have no problem with the fictional witch, such as portrayed in Bewitched and Harry Potter. I've researched witchcraft, Wicca, what have you, and they (Potter, et al) bear no resemblance whatsoever to actual practices, and anyone who says so is either trying to get attention, stir up trouble, make themselves look more "spiritual", or selling a book. That said, I, personally, do not find costumes of serial killers appealing, as such things exist, and I've come to not be so much of a fan of the gore as I once was, just because again, people really do horrendous things to other people, and this disturbs me.
However, I do not believe that every kid who wears a Jason mask is going to wind up a homicidal maniac, or else I myself would be one. Once again, leave them to God, he's pretty good at this stuff.

Peace








[edit on 2-11-2005 by staver]

My comment goes back to the original thoughts of this thread.

My children's school would not let them have a Halloween party or wear their costumes this year. They made sure to announce on Friday that Monday was just another day of school.... BLA...BLA...BLA.

So what did I do? I let my children stay home that day. If more people would take this stance then our traditions wouldn't be thrown out the window.

____________________________________________________________
Be Cool
K_OS

Were you in the spirit of Halloween? Did you test that spirit to see if it was of our Heavenly Father and Creator? (1 John 4:1-6)

If not, maybe you should test the spirits of the so called "Holidays (Holy Days)" in the near future.

Pagan Holidays

Do not lay aside the commandment of Yahweh and hold to the tradition of men!(Mark 7:8-9)

Why do you disobey the commandment of Yahweh because of your tradition? (Matthew 15:3)

You have made the commandment of Yahweh of none effect by your tradition! (Mark 15:6)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Messiah. (Colossians 2:8)

Throw those man-made traditions out the window!

Father Yahweh's Teaching (Torah, Law, Command)

[edit on 11/2/05 by Frank4YAHWEH]

America claims to be a christian nation but it is not.

America is not and never has been a " christian nation" . It is a nation made up of many different beliefs. It has long been my belief that the first mistake
made in this country was when the first nations saved the invading xians from starvation.

Is Christmas all about a tree decorated with lights, frosty the snowman, and egg nog? If so, my recommendation is to re-evalute the reason why you celebrate this holyday. The original purpose of CHRISTmas is in the word itself. Do you believe Christmas honors Christ?

Actually Yes it is. before the thieving xians appropriated it (the Dec holiday)
It was about the end of winter, as the days grew longer, the land thawed and new life began. It was the church that changed the date from 1-6 and
before that some time in april and before that Sept 17 as i recall. so please when exactly was R. J. birthed?


What do you believe Halloween honors?
Harvest, the bounty of Giah the Earth Mother, reflection and rememberence of those who have crossed over.

a good reason by a Christian to celebrate this holiday.

see above. also you might think of the earths bounty every time you
stuff something in your mouth. ( feet are exempt)

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
What do you believe Halloween honors?
Harvest, the bounty of Giah the Earth Mother, reflection and rememberence of those who have crossed over.

Thank you stalkingwolf for these words. I hope all here have ears to listen to your true statement quoted here.

[edit on 3-11-2005 by saint4God]

Can not one give a more convincing argument without quoting scripture?

I know what your answer will be, however put that scripture in YOUR OWN words and interpretation. Not what has been handed down and drilled into you by man.

To know GOD one has to look up from "The Book" and be able to comprehend and understand what "The Book" is trying to say on an individual basis, and in relation to this illusion that our physical presence resides in.

I agree abovereproach, Christmas and Easter are as just as pagan in origin as Halloween. I prefer to call Santa Claus 'Satan Claws'!

SATAN CLAWS

We could just simply turn this thread in to the topic of Pagan Holidays. Ther are others soon to come.

Pagan Holidays

madmanacrosswater said: >>> "... put that scripture in YOUR OWN words and interpretation.

My responce: >>> That is exactly what the Scripture instructs us not to do! So, I will not go there! Since you do not want Scriptural references I will not post the Scriptural reference that tells use about "private interpreation".

If you want to know. just ask me!

[edit on 11/5/05 by Frank4YAHWEH]

I submit the following:

The Law is the Living Word of the Living God. God did not write the Law in Books but in your HEART".
- Gospel of the Essenes
- Attributed to Jesus Christ


"He who possesses the Philosopher's Stone possesses Truth, the greatest of all treasures, and is therefore rich beyond the calculation of man; he is immortal because Reason takes no account of death and he is healed of Ignorance the most loathsome of all diseases." (from The Secret Teachings of All Ages).

Knowledge appears to make no contribution to the credentials of an authority;
opinions firmly held, expressed loudly, and buttressed by ignorance are quite adequate.
RWF


and finally,

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
Annie Dillard

How does the saying go?
"If all your friends are jumping off a bridge (to their death), do you jump off with them because it's the thing to do?"

Question everything! Just because your Christian neighbor sees nothing wrong with Halloween, doesn't mean there isn't anything wrong with it.

The true Christian would seek out for themselves by reading the activities of God and how he dealt with the Hebrew Nation.

In my oppinion, if a holiday is slightly tainted with pagan origins then it should not be observed by the Jew or the Christian. However, the governments should not force Christian teachings on its citizens, because the majority of them choose their own religion or no religion at all.
Don't bother trying to get your congressman to ban Halloween or even yet your president because God could care less what the leaders of the world do today. Remember what Satan offered Jesus on the unusually high mountain?

In my oppinion, if a holiday is slightly tainted with pagan origins then it should not be observed

You wouldn't be observing many holidays if you went by this. The Church has a history of conveniently putting their own holidays on top of currently-popular festivals, etc. Around all the solstices and equinoxes you have major Christian holidays (Spring Equinox/Easter, Summer Solstice/Feast of St. John the Baptist, Fall equinox/Michaelmas, Winter Solstice/Christmas). Coincidence? Because those were the big celebration days for the "pagans," and when the Church put their new holidays directly in competition with the "pagan" holidays, the old names sort of lost steam. And we know the Nazis similarly put their holidays in competition with Christian holidays, in an attempt to kill off Christian holidays.

Many, perhaps most, Pagan religions in the ancient Mediterranean region had a major seasonal day of religious celebration at, or following, the spring equinox. In one religion, Cybele, the Phrygian fertility goddess, had a consort who was believed to have been born via a virgin birth. He was Attis, who was said to have died and been resurrected each year during the period MAR-22 to MAR-25; i.e. at the time of the vernal equinox in the Julian calendar.

Wherever Christian worship of Jesus and Pagan worship of Attis were active in the same geographical area in ancient times, Christians "used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype and which the imitation." Since the worship of Cybele was brought to Rome in 204 BCE, about 250 years before Christianity, it is obvious that if any copying occurred, it was the Christians that copied the traditions of the Pagans.

The record of the Roman Army's execution date of Yeshua of Nazareth (later known as Jesus Christ) has been lost. Dates linked to the Jewish Passover celebration in the years 30 to 33 have been suggested. Easter commemorates Jesus' execution, visit to Hell, and resurrection. Easter Sunday is a moveable holy day, being celebrated from late MAR to late APR. It is named after the "Teutonic goddess Eostre, whose name is probably yet another variant of Ishtar, Astare and Aset..."

www.religioustolerance.org...

After the conversion of Europe to Christianity, the feast day of St. John the Baptist was set as JUN-24...His feast day is offset a few days after the summer solstice, just as Christmas is fixed a few days after the winter solstice.

www.religioustolerance.org...

The Christian Church replaced earlier Pagan solstices and equinox celebrations during Medieval times, with Christianized observances. Replacing the fall equinox is Michaelmas, the feast of the Archangel Michael, on SEP-29.

www.religioustolerance.org...

Q. On what date was Jesus born?

A. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (Third Edition, 1998) in its article on "Christmas" details the history of the dating of Christmas. The article points out that the time of Christ's birth was a matter of speculation and even dispute in the early centuries of of the Christian church. The celebration of Christ's birth on a specific day did not become a general practice until the 4th century. The earliest mention of December 25 is in a calendar representing Roman practice of the year 336, the date probably chosen to oppose the pagan feast of the sun. Other traditions of the dating were present, including the Eastern tradition of connecting Christ's birth with Epiphany on January 6 (a practice still followed in the Eastern churches).

The Scriptures, of course, do not give us a precise date for Christ's birth and therefore it must always remain a man of conjecture. It is not a doctrinal matter.

www.lcms.org...

It was actually a pretty common practice back then. The Church would move into an area, and, if it couldn't convert the locals very easily (such as happened in many parts of Europe with strong tradition, such as Celtic regions), they would simply integrate Christian ideas with their major celebrations and get into their culture that way.

I don't quite understand the holiday attack thing. It's affected both Halloween and Christmas. Whatever the origins I like both holidays.

For so many years we've walked the neighborhoods in search of candy. What is the sudden urgency in calling it a "fall festival" or whatever?

Christmas was attacked as well, and Christmas trees were thought of as bad. And the word "Christmas" was bad.

And the long pointed butcher knive ban that was proposed. This is the wierd stuff we deal with in the world today. What is the deal?


Troy

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
Annie Dillard

Apparently our priestly friend didn't recall Revelation 20:11.

All the best at the throne...

Originally posted by saint4God


Apparently our priestly friend didn't recall Revelation 20:11.

But he did apparently remember verses 12 and 13.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by saint4God


Apparently our priestly friend didn't recall Revelation 20:11.

But he did apparently remember verses 12 and 13.

That's what I'm referring to. The dead were brought up and judged according to what they had done as opposed to the John 3:16'ers who have eternal life because they believe in Christ Jesus. Maybe you could explain your viewpoint a little?

Good to see you again Mason Light . I miss you guys.

Originally posted by saint4God


That's what I'm referring to. The dead were brought up and judged according to what they had done as opposed to the John 3:16'ers who have eternal life because they believe in Christ Jesus. Maybe you could explain your viewpoint a little?

That's pretty much the way I interpret it, although the Calvinist and Lutheran sola fide types will no doubt condemn us both to eternal angst for saying such a thing.

Good to see you again Mason Light

. I miss you guys.

Why did you leave? It was just getting interesting.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
That's pretty much the way I interpret it, although the Calvinist and Lutheran sola fide types will no doubt condemn us both to eternal angst for saying such a thing.

I don't understand. That's what's written. I guess I'm lacking study in Calvinism and Lutheranism. Funny thing is I'm currently attending a Calvanistic-style church. Any education would be appreciated.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Good to see you again Mason Light

. I miss you guys.

Why did you leave? It was just getting interesting.

Yeah, well, I try to make it a rule not go around personally offending people. Seems that's what happened and despite a heart-to-heart, we couldn't see eye-to-eye, so he hadn't accepted my request to be re-invited. I respect that and wish him well. Two things that will always stick with me. One was your common sense answer, "sometimes guys just want to do guy stuff and girls just want to do girl stuff". Though I personally don't agree, there's no way to argue that if that's how some people feel. Two is Tman's thinking that he wouldn't endanger his relationship with God if it were in anyway threatened by the organization. In that there's some reassurance. I still have my have my issues as stated but appreciate the patience coming from both of you.

[edit on 8-11-2005 by saint4God]

Hmmm....isn't the current date of Halloween incorporated from a CHRISTIAN holiday? "All Hallows Eve" or the feast on the eve of All Saints day?

I don't think Christ sanctioned the celebration of either Christmas OR Halloween. Neither have much validity. Yet many of the so called Christians happily celebrate Christmas with their Red-Suited Santa Claus and his flying reindeer, but when Halloween comes around, they yell "Satan! Satan!".

You can celebrate the joy you get from God any day of the week. If someone wants to eat candy or get/give presents once in a while, how is that furthering them from God?

Originally posted by saint4God


I don't understand. That's what's written. I guess I'm lacking study in Calvinism and Lutheranism. Funny thing is I'm currently attending a Calvanistic-style church. Any education would be appreciated.

The Lutherans and Calvinists are very staunch in their sola fide, or "faith alone", theology, at least the classical ones. Teaching the idea that works could have anything to do with saving anybody would draw their relentless fire, even though, as you mentioned, it is plainly stated to be so by both John the Evangelist and the Apostle James...even Paul throws in a few words on it.

There are some Calvinists I have great respect for, especially Spurgeon, Knox, and Whitefield, but there's no way I could ever accept their T.U.L.I.P. theology.

Yeah, well, I try to make it a rule not go around personally offending people. Seems that's what happened and despite a heart-to-heart, we couldn't see eye-to-eye, so he hadn't accepted my request to be re-invited. I respect that and wish him well. Two things that will always stick with me. One was your common sense answer, "sometimes guys just want to do guy stuff and girls just want to do girl stuff". Though I personally don't agree, there's no way to argue that if that's how some people feel. Two is Tman's thinking that he wouldn't endanger his relationship with God if it were in anyway threatened by the organization. In that there's some reassurance. I still have my have my issues as stated but appreciate the patience coming from both of you.

I don't think you should worry about offending anyone...I read all of your recent posts there, and didn't see anything offensive. I don't think you'd do such a thing anyway, at least not on purpose.

As for "girls stuff" and "boy stuff", though, even though this is off topic, I'm curious: does your church have a men's group? A ladies group? I've been attending a church recently, which I'm considering joining. I've been participating in the men's group there, and my wife in the ladies group. My son is participating in the teens group, and my daughter in the kids group. Do you believe that the church should not form such groups, or do you have a different opinion if the group in question is a church rather than a civic or fraternal organization?

[edit on 9-11-2005 by Masonic Light]