NEWS: Israel Fires 'Warning' Shots Into Gaza

Originally posted by intrepid

So you are saying the Mossad don't do the same thing? Or are they just better at covering their tracks?

Can you show us proof that Mosad is strapping bombs into their people, quite a few of them being kids, and blowing up civilians?...

[edit on 29-9-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by intrepid

So you are saying the Mossad don't do the same thing? Or are they just better at covering their tracks?

Can you show us proof that Mosad is strapping bombs into their people, quite a few of them being kids, and blowing up civilians?...

[edit on 29-9-2005 by Muaddib]

@ Muaddib, killing's killing man.

I haven't responded yet, busy here, but I haven't forgotten to answer you Riwka.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Can you show us proof that Mosad is strapping bombs into their people, quite a few of them being kids, and blowing up civilians?...

Do you want to count How many Palestinian Children Died and how many Isreali Children?

Do you want to count How many Palestinian People Homes have been demolished and how many Isreali Homes were?

Did you Know, that....

- 118 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 680 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

- 1,049 Israelis and 3,606 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

- 7,169 Israelis and 28,695 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

- The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s.

- Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

- No Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 8,043 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

- 0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000.

- 60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements.

www.ifamericansknew.org...

www.ifamericansknew.org...

www.rememberthesechildren.org...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I wonder who is the TERRORist....

[edit on 29/9/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Souljah


- No Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 8,043 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.


I wonder who is the TERRORist....

[edit on 29/9/05 by Souljah]

Well, the Palestinians did have a hostage last week; does that count as a prisoner?

Ooops, no, probably not. Since they cut his head off before they even gave any demands.

"I wonder who is the terrorist," indeed.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Well, the Palestinians did have a hostage last week; does that count as a prisoner?

Ooops, no, probably not. Since they cut his head off before they even gave any demands.

"I wonder who is the terrorist," indeed.

Can you provide the Link to your story?

Using deaths as an indication of right and wrong is demeaning to the people who died and in itself a form of misinformation.

Does it make it better to you if equal numbers of israeli and palastinian children die? What if more Israeli kids were killed, would it make you feel better as well?

Nor do such statistics justify a complicated situation where palastinians will send the kids in to fight, where they strap bombs on them, and where they deliberatly blow up buses of Israeli children.

Originally posted by Souljah
Do you want to count How many Palestinian Children Died and how many Isreali Children?

The demolished homes are usually owned by suicide bombers families, or used as bases for attackers. I see no problem with that.

Do you want to count How many Palestinian People Homes have been demolished and how many Isreali Homes were?

All the rest of your post is merely trying to demonize Israel by looking at numbers, not looking at the situation itself.

Using such a technique you can easily demonise America in iraq, or racial divisions in any other countries. Thats why statistics are so much fun, you can make them look shocking without having to address the underlying reasons for the numbers, or the background to their situation.

Statistics are the last tool of the one eyed because they can easily be manipulated.

Look back in the first pages souljah, the pictures there tell the truth.

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Well, the Palestinians did have a hostage last week; does that count as a prisoner?

Ooops, no, probably not. Since they cut his head off before they even gave any demands.

"I wonder who is the terrorist," indeed.

Can you provide the Link to your story?

Originally posted by Netchicken
Using deaths as an indication of right and wrong is demeaning to the people who died and in itself a form of misinformation.

But it's Allright to use the 4000 dead in the WTC Towers all the time for the Endless War on Terror excuse?

Does it make it better to you if equal numbers of israeli and palastinian children die? What if more Israeli kids were killed, would it make you feel better as well?

It would not make me feel better - but these numbers just show what kindof Injustice is being performed in Isreali conquered Palestine territory.

Don't get me Wrong - but how would you feel, if your Friends were killed, your Home was destroyed and you can't go and visit your Relatives that live in Jerusalem?

Nor do such statistics justify a complicated situation where palastinians will send the kids in to fight, where they strap bombs on them, and where they deliberatly blow up buses of Israeli children.

But when an Apache Gunship fires Hellfire missiles to the Crowd of Palestinian people its OK?

And when a Merkava Tank fires a Shell in the Crowd of Teenagers and Children throwing Stones its OK?

The demolished homes are usually owned by suicide bombers families, or used as bases for attackers. I see no problem with that.

Are you SURE abou that?

I have seen my Share of Documentaries about Palestine, from BBC, French or German, and they showed me a different Face of Isreal that you are Defending.

First the Homes that are Destroyed are NOT just by Suicide Bomber Families.

BUT

Destroyed Homes MAKE Suicide Bomers.

Why don't you UNDERSTAND that?

All the rest of your post is merely trying to demonize Israel by looking at numbers, not looking at the situation itself.

And the Isreal is NOT demonizing the Palestinian People as "Terrorists"?

Who was LIVING here in the First Place before 1948?

Using such a technique you can easily demonise America in iraq, or racial divisions in any other countries.

And it's also EASY to DEMONISE the entire Muslim World - which is EXACTLY what the Bush Administration is doing right now as we speak.

But that's another Story....

I think you are drawing larger emotive issues into this one. The demonizing of the muslim world is generalization and not really applicable. For every generalization you need to show the specific acts that lead to it, otherwise you can say anything without having to substantiate your position.

Instead of the palestinain people being demonized by israel I see the reverse happening, Israel always gets the bad press.

So you see the removal of the gaza settlements without muich comment, and nothing about the continued attacks on the soldiers by Hamas etc when they were doing it.

You yourself are unaware of the killing of an Israeli hostage last week, yet totally aware of Israel attacking the launching areas in Gaza of the rockets the palastinains fired.

Its rare for the truth to be seen in the situation. For example I remember Isreal getting bad press for shooting at amulances during last years fights, yet later when it emerged that the Palastinians were using them to move weapons, as Israel said initially, there was nothing / little in the press about it.

Or the Palastinian media staging their own battles, and deaths purely for the propaganda it gives. Remember the boy and his father sheltering from the israeli bullets and the heart breaking story of how the boy later died.

It was all a fabrication, it never happened. Israel was attacked for that as well, then the truth emerged some months later, there was nothing, no press coverage on it being faked.

And now with your poor family unable to go to Jerusalem to visit releatives totaly ignores the entire sitation there with the suicide bombers and tries to ues emotive catches to prove a point. It doesn't move me at all. If the Palastianians hadn't started the Infada, then they would still have open travel, if they stopped it now they would have it again.

I think I saw that same special Souljah...

was it the one, where the embedded reporter and her entourage of Palestinian youths were being shot at, merely for being close to an area that was being "reclaimed" from the palestinians.
the area, was one where israel went in an knocked down a bunch of the houses of the palestinians that the reporter was following the lives of.
the shots were totally pot shots... probably just to scare them away, but it shows the lack of thinking on the israelis part... they didn't know it was a reporter...

in all fairness, the children, whom the reporter was following did pledge to be terrorists... but only after several friends were killed by isrealis... the friends were in an area, that was shelled indiscriminatly... even though the israeli statement was it was going after terrorist leaders...
but innocent kids got killed, and the cycle of revenge goes on...

the special had a very good angle... one that is rarely shown...
the Palestinian women, wanted peace...the men wanted revenge... the palestinian government was largely disrespected by the men.
the children wanted peace, until there frequent play friend was killed...

one point that was made, that i would be interested in hearing an israeli veiwpoint of:
the israelis said that the people living close to the terrorists were responsible becasue they lived in a "hot spot" area...
the reporter asked the family why they didn't move... they said "to where
and how"?
... there is no safe place for palestinians, that want peace, to live... they have very little area, and no vacant houses... mainly die to all the demolishing of palestinian "hot spot" areas...

it is indeed a dire situation, with no easy answer...

Originally posted by LazarusTheLongAt this point, I think the whole area is doomed to be perpetual war...
they need to throw down the gloves and get down to some serious mass slaughter and genocide...
a big blood arena where no one leaves alive until one religion kills the other one off... it is what they have wanted for decades, they are just not honest enough to admit it...

IMO the UN needs to spray 100 tons of pig grease over the entire land and make it fit for neither muslim, or jew... the salted earth project becomes the salted pork project.

I think you hit it right on the head.

IMO Israel shouldn't exist, the land belongs to the Palestinian refugees. But I also think the Palestinians haven't bettered their position by carrying out suicide bombings in retaliation to all the BS they've taken from Israel.

Someone should just nuke Jerusalem and all of the surrounding land so we dont have all this stupid fuss over the "holy land". I'd like to see people try and fight over "their" holy land once it's irradiated and unfit to live in.

Originally posted by intrepid

@ Muaddib, killing's killing man.

i see.... Are you saying that targeting innocent civilians on purpose is the same as targetting terrorists?

You were saying both HAMAS and MOSSAD are doing the same thing....so where is your proof that they are doing the same thing?....

Where is your proof that MOSSAD is using children as suicide bombers?

Where is your proof that MOSSAD is blowing up innocent civilians on purpose?

If you are going to make such a statement, yo need to presen some proof to back it up.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by intrepid

@ Muaddib, killing's killing man.

i see.... Are you saying that targeting innocent civilians on purpose is the same as targetting terrorists?

You were saying both HAMAS and MOSSAD are doing the same thing....so where is your proof that they are doing the same thing?....

Where is your proof that MOSSAD is using children as suicide bombers?

Where is your proof that MOSSAD is blowing up innocent civilians on purpose?

If you are going to make such a statement, yo need to presen some proof to back it up.

OK, no problem man. Firstly I would like to recant what I said about the Mossad, I should have said Israeli forces

www.haaretz.com...

Blast strikes school
A few hours earlier, an Israeli aircraft attacked a school in a crowded Gaza City neighborhood, wounding at least 17 people, Palestinian medical officials said.

The blast struck the Arkam school, which was established by the late founder of the militant Hamas group, Sheik Ahmed Yassin. The army said the building was used by a Hamas-linked foundation to raise money for terrorist attacks.

The blast collapsed part of the school, and caused damage to at least five nearby homes. Hospital officials said women and children were among the wounded, and one person was in serious condition. Electricity in the neighborhood was knocked out, and dozens of people ran in the streets following the attack.

I also recall soldiers firing into a school earlier this year. That's what I was looking for when I stumbled across this.

Refering what I bolded in your post, I see no difference. Innocents are getting killed on both sides. Both are culpable.

Originally posted by Riwka

Originally posted by intrepid

But Hammas isn’t a government. It claims to be a militia. They don’t tax people, just take donations for killing.

So, where is the Palisinian gov't? Why aren't they dealing with these people? Like I said both sides

What happened?

Now both sides is Pal gov't versus palestinian terror organisation?

And yes, this happened:

The Hamas has come under heavy palestinian criticism following last Friday's explosion that killed 21 people and injured more than 120. Palestinians have rejected Hamas's claim that Israel was behind the explosion, which occurred when a truck loaded with rockets overturned during a rally. I provided the source of the official Palestinian Government blaming Hamas for this.

I do not want to be unpolite, but I suggest you'd please read the postings within this topic.

Sorry for the late reply Riwka. By both sides I was refering to the Israeli and Palistinian gov'ts. I see they are blaming Hammas but what are they doing about it? I read the article, the political climate there is tenuous at best but don't you think they can do more than just comdemning the group?

Originally posted by intrepid

I see they are blaming Hammas but what are they doing about it?

The article you qouted suggests what has to be done:

" The U.K. Presidency of the European Union released a statement Saturday evening calling on the Palestinian Authority to reign in militants in the Gaza Strip""

and U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said:

"Hamas is a terror organization and it has to be disbanded, both for the sake of peace and security in the Middle East and for the sake of the proper functioning of the Palestinian Authority. After all, under the road map, the Palestinian Authority has undertaken to disband militias and armed resistance groups."


This is the responsibility of the Palestinian Authority.

Israel insists that Abbas dismantles militant groups such as Hamas - a process that the Palestinians are meant to begin under the road map - before there can be new talks on Palestinian statehood.

This (Sunday) morning, Israel has scaled back an offensive against Gaza Strip militants to give PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas a chance to stop rocket fire from the territory.


....and BTW:


The 'school' which was attacked between "late Saturday night and early Sunday morning" (see your source) is no 'regular education institut for children' - this institution has been used by Hamas terrorists as a training area.

The institution was used by Ahmed Yassin to hold gatherings of Hamas terrorists, in which armed terrorists often took part. In these gatherings, Yassin stated the necessity to educate the future generation of Hamas to participate in carrying out terrorist attacks against Israeli targets. Yassin also headed the board of directors of the institution.

Following Yassin's death, the institution continued its activity in close relation to Hamas, including management of the organization's "Dawa" establishment, and fundraising in order to provide financial support for imprisoned Hamas terrorists, and for family members of terrorists who were killed while carrying out Hamas attacks.

The funds raised by the "Dawa" establishment have often been used to fund terrorist attacks dispatched by Hamas.


...Did you read The charter of the HAMAS?

[edit on 2-10-2005 by Riwka]

I wonder if HAMAS would actually exsist if state of Isreal was never formed.

Hmmmmm...

It's so Hard for you all to understand the Laws of Physics and the Newton Laws. They were funded to oppose the Isreali Oppresive Rule in the Gaza strip and the West Bank. For every invasion and occupation there is resistance and rebellion. That is not so hard to understand right?

With every house demolished there are ten new HAMAS members.

For every Palestinian Child Killed there are 50 new HAMAS members.

For every HAMAS Leader killed, there are 100 new HAMAS members.

You want to stop them with guns, bullets and missiles?

The fifth year of the fighting that began on September 29, 2000, was the least violent yet, with fewer incidents and fewer casualties on both sides

Originally posted by Souljah
I wonder if HAMAS would actually exsist if state of Isreal was never formed.

Of course they would. HAMAS goal is to establish a Great Islamic State

Hamas: Our Main Goal Is to Establish a Great Islamic State
- Yaniv Berman (Media Line)


Mahmoud A-Zahhar, the leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, said last week in an interview:
[...]

• Q: If Israel withdraws from all the areas occupied after 1967, will this be the end of the resistance?
  
  A-Z: First of all we already agreed with the Palestinian factions on this plan. On the basis of this plan we can establish a state, after which we would engage in a long hudna (calm agreement), which would last for years.
  
  
• Q: What is the final goal of Hamas?
  
  A-Z: If you ask any Palestinian or Muslim, wherever he lives - in America or in Britain or in Indonesia - he would tell you that according to the religious point of view, this land is part of the Arab and Muslim nations. This means that there is no other option but to reunify this land once again.
  
  
• Q: What is 'this land' that you are talking about? Are you talking about the whole of Israel?
  
  A-Z: First of all this Palestinian land, and all the Arabic nation, is all part of the same area. In the past, there was no independent Palestinian state; there was no independent Jordanian state; and so on. There were regions called Iraq or Egypt, but they were all part of one country...Our main goal is to establish a great Islamic state, be it pan-Arabic or pan-Islamic [....]
  
  

Arab Empire of c. 750:




and Ottoman Empire of around 1580:

Do you remember TA-911: Flight to 911 - Al-Qaeda's Goal of al Khalifa ?





[edit on 2-10-2005 by Riwka]

Riwka,

you are overreacting.

By HAMAS Covenant, the organization's goal is to "eliminate the State of Israel (and any secular Palestinian state which may be established), and to replace it with an Islamic republic." - meaning to establish a Palestinian Republic - not an Islamic Empire. But you kind of Right. As the Mahmoud A-Zahhar said in the Interview:

...this Palestinian land, and all the Arabic nation, is all part of the same area. In the past, there was no independent Palestinian state; there was no independent Jordanian state; and so on. There were regions called Iraq or Egypt, but they were all part of one country. That is why it is not permitted to [agree to] establish separate countries, which was the case after the Sykes-Picot Agreement [1916]. Our main goal is to establish a great Islamic state, be it pan-Arabic or pan-Islamic. Therefore, it is not allowed to establish an Arabic state over the land of Palestine alone. Also, remember this land is still occupied. To sum up, the Islamic and traditional views reject the notion of establishing an independent Palestinian state.

So - what's wrong with that? Whats wrong with all the Arab-Muslim States to be United? Well that would represent a REAL problem to the West, that tries so hard to Control and to keep it Fragmented and under their Command - and with several smaller states that is a very easy job. Divide and Conquer - oldest trick in the Book. Isreal is nothing but a Fortress of Western Colonialism in the Heart of Islam. Isrealis are nothing but Pawns on the giant board of Chess between East and the West.

And why can the Europe countrires merge in a European Union and Muslim countries Can not?

The European example is clear. Europe's history is filled with wars and blood. Its races are varied, its languages are varied, and nevertheless it established the European Union.

Whats the REAL problem here?

If there was no Oil Reserves in this part of the World, there would be no Western Presence here either.

But since the end of WWII this area just HAD to be controlled by the Supreme Power on this Planet in order to remain Supreme and keep its grip in the Middle East.

Originally posted by Souljah
I wonder if HAMAS would actually exsist if state of Isreal was never formed.

Hmmmmm...

It's so Hard for you all to understand the Laws of Physics and the Newton Laws. They were funded to oppose the Isreali Oppresive Rule in the Gaza strip and the West Bank. For every invasion and occupation there is resistance and rebellion. That is not so hard to understand right?

Israeli oppressive rule?....

You are the one who doesn't seem to understand that Israelis have lived in there for a long time, as long or even longer than Palestinians have. Both people have been migrating there throughout the years.

You also don't seem to understand that there were resolutions which would have made Palestine a legal state, which is not because it has never approved any resolutions to accept a split of the land for Israel to exist.

Both countries, and people, should be able to exist, but the Palestinian officials keep rejecting treaties and agreements and in fact demand the total anihilation of Israel and it's people. The Palestinian educational system is set up to instill in Palestinians hatred towards Israelis since childhood to the point of total anihilation and denial that the State of Israel does exist.

In fact if we get technical Palestine as a whole should not exist, as the Palestinian authorities have never recognized the legal partition of land to make legal States both Israel and Palestine.