This may change your mind about the Iraq war

A friend of mine sent me this regarding war and Iraq. It has quite a number of interesting points, and what really sticks out is that we as Americans, regarding the war in Iraq, maybe don't base our decisions on a real world.
After reading this. I have to admit. I was wrong. Bush was right. And Iraq is....a better place.


WHAT SENATOR JOHN GLENN SAID
Things that make you think a little:

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January.
In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the
month of January.That's just one American city,
about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq.

When some claim that President Bush shouldn't
have started this war, state the following:

a.FDR led us into World War II.

b. Germany never attacked us; Japan did.
>From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost ...
an average of 112,500 per year.

c.Trumanfinished that war and started one in Korea.
North Korea never attacked us.
>From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ...
an average of 18,334 per year.

d John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
Vietnam never attacked us.

e. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
>From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost ...
an average of 5,800 per year.

f. Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.
He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on
multiple occasions.

g. In the years since terrorists attacked us , President Bush
has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled
al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran, and North
Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who
slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

The Democrats are complaining
about how long the war is taking.
But ..
It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno
to take the Branch Davidian compound.
That was a 51-day operation.

We've been looking for evidence for chemical weapons
in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find
the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the
Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard
than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his
Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick

It took less time to take Iraq than it took
to count the votes in Florida!!!!

Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB!
The Military morale is high!

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant
to realize the facts

But Wait there's more!

JOHN GLENN (ON THE SENATE FLOOR)
Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13

Some people still don't understand why military personnel
do what they do for a living. This exchange between
Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum
is worth reading. Not only is it a pretty impressive
impromptu speech, but it's also a good example of one
man's explanation of why men and women in the armed
services do what they do for a living.

ThisIS a typical, though sad, example of what
some who have never served think of the military.

Senator Metzenbaum (speaking to Senator Glenn):
"How can you run for Senate
when you've never held a real job?"

Senator Glenn (D-Ohio):
"I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps.
I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions.
My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different
occasions. I was in the space program. It wasn't my
checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was
not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the
daily cash receipts to the bank."

"I ask you to go with me ... as I went the other day...
to a veteran's hospital and look those men ..
with their mangled bodies .. in the eye, and tell THEM
they didn't hold a job!

You go with me to the Space Program at NASA
and go, as I have gone, to the widows and Orphans
of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee...
and you look those kids in the eye and tell them
that their DADS didn't hold a job.

You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in
Arlington National Cemetery, where I have more friends
buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch
those waving flags

You stand there, and you think about this nation,
and you tell ME that those people didn't have a job?

What about you?"


For those who don't remember ..
During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney
representing the Communist Party in the USA.

Now he's a Senator!

If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.

Peace



[edit on 27-7-2005 by HIFIGUY]

I enjoyed that...Some great points there.
Very eye opening.

and captured a terrorist who
slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

I assume you mean Saddam? I point out the note that 'terrorist' in todays connotation means an islamic extremist, usually associated with Al-Qaeda. I also point out that its use to describe Saddam is an intentional attempt to link him to Al-Qaeda, as well as the 9/11 attacks.

In the years since terrorists attacked us , President Bush
has liberated two countries

Afghanistan arguably, Iraq not yet.

crushed the Taliban

There are still Taliban fighters as well as reminants of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, interrupting several elections, etc. While they're not in power, they're still around.

And the most hillaroius lie..

crippled al-Qaida

.... hah.

He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on
multiple occasions.

And we sat back while Saddam gassed his own people with weapons that WE gave him. Whats your point? Not to mention when we should have been going after Bin Laden in Afghanistan, Bush takes us to war in Iraq. Now Bin Laden is still running free, and Iraq is the new live-fire training ground for terrorists. Oops.

[edit on 27-7-2005 by Epocha]

Originally posted by Epocha
And we sat back while Saddam gassed his own people with weapons that WE gave him. Whats your point? Not to mention when we should have been going after Bin Laden in Afghanistan, Bush takes us to war in Iraq. Now Bin Laden is still running free, and Iraq is the new live-fire training ground for terrorists. Oops.
[edit on 27-7-2005 by Epocha]

Bush doesn't want Bin Laden caught, he's his buddy from the 80s.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
It took less time to take Iraq than it took
to count the votes in Florida!!!!

Sorry Einstein, Iraq hasn't been taken yet and the votes in Florida still haven't been counted !!!!!

Originally posted by glastonaut
Bush doesn't want Bin Laden caught, he's his buddy from the 80s.

Yes, apparently they used to play a lot of golf together. Bin Laden plays off a 9 handicap, but has a very annoying habit of shouting "Death to the infidels!" just as you are taking your swing.

Several good points to ponder. Some members of Congress would start crying like a little baby if they got a paper cut. We as Americans should be very proud of our men and women in uniform who are putting their a$$'s on the line just so we can all enjoy the life our forfathers envisioned long ago. For those in Congress who feel the need to put the blame on someone else, they should stroll down a medical ward at any Vet. Admin. Hospital and see for themselves the men and women who are missing limbs and suffering horrible dreams that resulted in their effort to help protect our country. I have and it's not a pretty sight. I thought I was disabled untill I say a guy with no arms and legs who was trying to feed himself. People in Congress who have this mentalityreally get me pissed off. Also if anyone wants to do something on their part to show the men and women who were injured in the wars that are now in progress, they should go to any V.A. Hospital and help the folks. It is at the very least a humbling experience.

You must be right, you have mangled bodies to prove it ?

The opposition also have mangled bodies. . . .I suppose they prove something else ?

It is very sad to see people thinking that flag waving and weeping over lost limbs is some kind of argument.

May I just say that we could give Peace a chance instead?

Over 20,000 innocent civilians - men, women and children - have been killed in Iraq in the two years since the war officially ended.




rate of violent crime has risen, and continues to rise steadly.

There is limited infrastructure - water, electricity, food - and a crippeled economy.

There is no leadership for the people other than a cabinet of appointed officals that are bein murdered one by one.

There are more insurgent/training camps than two years ago.

We have had multiple attacks across europe as a direct consequence of the war in Iraq.

Attention is being distracted away from important issues like climate change, and the removal of the debt burden from African nations.

This is despite the basis of the invasion of Iraq being illegal according to international law, no Weapons of any kind Strategic of tactical being found, or evidence that the Iraqi leaders were supporting terrorism.

To say that Iraq is a better place with out Saddam Hussein very subjective.

To say that the world is better of without Saddam Hussein in power is wrong.

If you average the deaths due to US military action out over the 24 months since the invasion it works out out at approx 500 deaths per month, add the insurgents into this and the total is nearer 800.

Now imagine in the USA every month over 800 people were killed due to insurgent actions and the law enforcement agencies trying to stop them.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
f. Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.

so you are saying that he shouldn't of gone to war because the serbs were massacaring the albanians but it is ok to go to war with Iraq even though he was doing the exact same thing with the kurds?? make your mind up either it is ok or not, the only difference I can see is that the president was a democrat for the kosovo war and republican for Iraq ??

He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on
multiple occasions.

most of those attacks were while bush was president not clinton!

g. In the years since terrorists attacked us , President Bush
has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled
al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran, and North
Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who
slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

barely...he's killed 20000 innocent people with indiscrimate bombing of civilian areas not to mention the 500,000 children who died as a direct result of flawed sanctions. The taliban still rome relatively freely in afganistan and there are signs of impending civil war there. Err dont remember any nuclear inspector in Iran and North Korea ?? please enlighten me.

who's the biggest terrorist saddam or the american governemt?

Nice job HIFIGUY!!! Sadly enough though, your points were lost when the venom spewing partisans showed up, and you HAD to know that they would... I mean you (GASP!!!) insulted the Clintons! Man, that takes SOME nerve!

You have voted HIFIGUY for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

Nice post, HIFIGUY. I enjoyed Glenn's response to Metzenbaum.

Great post! There is a certain poetic irony about posting a lie, to justify a war based on a lie:

Update: In 2005, someone prefaced the John Glenn/Howard Metzenbaum article with the following item about Iraq. This addendum has nothing to do with John Glenn — it's an anonymous piece that has been floating around the Internet since 2004, but because it has been tacked onto an article about Glenn, readers have been misled into thinking that it is a transcription of something he said:
SNOPES

But hey, keep those lies coming! We'll turn it into a truth some day!

EDIT: I don't know why people post the spam they get in thier inbox, it never turns out to be accurate, but here are some posts on ATS when that piece of spam first started being passed around:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I guess some people base thier opinions on 'bad intelligence'.

[edit on 27-7-2005 by curme]

Originally posted by curme
Great post! There is a certain poetic irony about posting a lie, to justify a war based on a lie:

Update: In 2005, someone prefaced the John Glenn/Howard Metzenbaum article with the following item about Iraq. This addendum has nothing to do with John Glenn — it's an anonymous piece that has been floating around the Internet since 2004, but because it has been tacked onto an article about Glenn, readers have been misled into thinking that it is a transcription of something he said:
SNOPES

But hey, keep those lies coming! We'll turn it into a truth some day!

have you ever been to snopes before ? if not, I'm sure you can deduce the meaning of;

Status: True.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
have you ever been to snopes before ? if not, I'm sure you can deduce the meaning of;

Status: True.

Can you deduce the meaning of, "read the entire page?" Or if your lazy, instead of just reading the first part, try just reading the last part.

EDIT: In all fairness, you're right syrinx high priest, it is 'true'

Claim: Senate candidate John Glenn delivered a stinging rebuke to a challenger who accused him of never having held a job.

Status: True.

But that part that was added on, about Iraq, is of course, a lie.




[edit on 27-7-2005 by curme]

Originally posted by arnold_vosloo

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
f. Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.

so you are saying that he shouldn't of gone to war because the serbs were massacaring the albanians?

The serbs were fighting terrorist in the only way they should be fought. Total extermination................

Clinton took a payoff from someone to stop the serbs. He should be put on trial for treason............

Yes, this changes my mind about the war in Iraq.

It has led me to realize how pathetic the writers and purveyors of pro-war propaganda have become, that they cannot even look at the reality of the situation as it stands in order to influence people with whatever sound reasoning could be possible, but they must look at national jingoism from the past to attempt to bolster "allegiance".

These are classic statements about the current setting:

"Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB!
The Military morale is high!"


We can take new resolve from this. The pro-war lobby lies like the Bush administration, and is the enemy of the United States of America.



[edit on 27-7-2005 by MaskedAvatar]

you could say the same exact thing the anti-war lads. Point out all the most terrible things in the conflict, much of isn't even the truth. Ahem, the war on terrorism board is an great example. From US soldiers use children as shields to 100,000 dead civilians.

The vietnam war lost funding and support when it was publicly denounced. This caused most of the troops to be short on equipment and maked living conditions much harsher. Overall we received more deaths of troops and civilians. US deaths 58,226 and many more wounded (153,303 to be exact.), South Vietnames over 1 million.
After the fall of Saigon, when the communist ran it over. Executions and torture where not uncommon. Many methods of torture had been unheard of since WWII, the brutality was immense.

Basicly anti-war demonstration can actually hurt us more than help.

IF your heading to a port, and you set the anchor down, your just going to drag and eventually tear.

HIFIGUY, great post!

It is funny, that when the right thinking people post something that may or may not be 100% accurate, the lefties are ALLLLLLLL over it, with venom.

But WE are supposed to accept all the lies, conspiricies, and anti-freedom bias they attempt to vent, even when we point out the truth of the reality.

Hooah!

Originally posted by Army
even when we point out the truth of the reality.

Hooah!

You are not supposed to accept any lies, and yet you accept them from the incumbent US government, daily.

So... what is in the "reality" besides the "truth"?

That would be a useful distinction to start with.

Please proceed.