why are women so neurotic?

you got your glow stix
rage on

Estragon



dont forget the other-half of Freud's theory:

"Freud felt that when girls discovered that they lacked a penis, they would fear and envy those that possessed one (men), accepting their inferior status because of this deficiency."

But!

"An alternative interpretation might propose that men envy women their ability to create and nurture life within their bodies, therefore men both fear and envy women, and see themselves as inferior to women because of this".



blackwidow

you are obviously eyeing up every woman that walks past you to have made your judgement that all women are neurotic.

Originally posted by blackwidow666
"An alternative interpretation might propose that men envy women their ability to create and nurture life within their bodies, therefore men both fear and envy women, and see themselves as inferior to women because of this".

...I like that...though I don't see either gender as inferior or superior to the other. We all have different roles to play, be it as a gender or as an individual. All roles are important.

I like my own cultures viewpoint of females. There is much respect in that viewpoint, though many who do not understand the culture can misinterpret it and see male-domination in some parts...but that is not the case. Take for instance the most powerful figures in my culture...they are female:

- The Earth, which sustains us all is female, Papatuanuku.
- When we die we return again to another female...Hine Nui Te Po. Hine Nui Te Po also defeated the mythological male hero, Maui, thereby securing her dominance over all Mankind and ensuring our mortality (what Maui was trying to do was to achieve Immortality)
- The first and last sound we hear in life is a woman weeping for us. Very powerful.
- No major meeting/hui can start without a woman first opening it with a call/karanga...even the mens speeches/whaikorero (which men think are VERY important) cannot start until the women open the proceedings...the women are also the ones who will likely back the men up afterwards with a song/waiata.
- The woman possesses 'Te Whare Tangata' (the house of man), the womb, the ability to hold life within her...as such she is to be honoured, revered and (if needs be) protected and sacrificed for.
- There is an one saying we have that shows this "Ma te whenua, ma te waahine, ka mate te tane" : "For land, and for women, men die"




Peace,
ALIEN

Originally posted by alien

...I like that...though I don't see either gender as inferior or superior to the other. We all have different roles to play, be it as a gender or as an individual. All roles are important.

I like my own cultures viewpoint of females. There is much respect in that viewpoint, though many who do not understand the culture can misinterpret it and see male-domination in some parts...but that is not the case. Take for instance the most powerful figures in my culture...they are female:

- The Earth, which sustains us all is female, Papatuanuku.
- When we die we return again to another female...Hine Nui Te Po. Hine Nui Te Po also defeated the mythological male hero, Maui, thereby securing her dominance over all Mankind and ensuring our mortality (what Maui was trying to do was to achieve Immortality)
- The first and last sound we hear in life is a woman weeping for us. Very powerful.
- No major meeting/hui can start without a woman first opening it with a call/karanga...even the mens speeches/whaikorero (which men think are VERY important) cannot start until the women open the proceedings...the women are also the ones who will likely back the men up afterwards with a song/waiata.
- The woman possesses 'Te Whare Tangata' (the house of man), the womb, the ability to hold life within her...as such she is to be honoured, revered and (if needs be) protected and sacrificed for.
- There is an one saying we have that shows this "Ma te whenua, ma te waahine, ka mate te tane" : "For land, and for women, men die"




Peace,
ALIEN

*attempts to import alien*

You ought to hold seminars. Seriously.
That was awesome.

-B.

A very good point, b-widow: indeed this recalls old threads about the androgyne and "missing halves".
I'd always thought penis-envy was what chaps felt in the shower after a match, but -more seriously -I can see why men might resent the progenive capacity of the ladies.
I'm still with the cricket theory, of course, but it is rather good to see again, a well-natured thread that brings posters in both armies together.
I think -if we take "neurotic" a some sort of common-sense level, the original posting is essentially culturally-sensitive: our culture puts women under a lot of pressure in externals: be thin, be sexy, be a good mother, be a good cook, be a home-builder, be wild and free, get a career, change your hair, nose, thighs, clothes etc. blah yawn. - it happens more and more to men too nowadays; but women get the brunt of media-image-madness.
Other posters may have different perspectives and I'd welcome reading them; but I still feel that there's a sense in whcih Western men can take it easy in terms of externals and role-models in ways that women can't. True, we have to be tough and sensitive, manly but well-shampooed, and we are starting to worry about weight, wrinkles, bodily odours, clothing, age, grey hair and the like:but we are relatively free still and one can still just put on a shirt and jeans, neglect to shave, and cause no very great surprise.

Estragon:

Thank you for that, I studied psychology (all area's for 7 yrs in totally) so I do like to add my bit about it anywere that it may fit in, and not just Freud either:

Not all psychologist's agreed with his theorie's, including Erikson, E H 1902-1994, an American psychoanalyst. "Erikson accepted the basics of Freud's psychoanalytic theory, he believed that we should place a stronger emphasis on the lifelong relationship between the individual and the social system in which we develop. Erikson believed that there are eight distant stages to a persons life. Each stage presents particular challenges that are characteristic of that time of the person's life. For example; in midlife, a person must face the challenge of "generativity versus stagnation". In this stage, individuals may express themselves as caring and productive members of the next generation or perhaps in terms of their ability to help members of the next generation unlock their potential and achieve success. Those without children and without jobs or lifestyles that have significant meaning to them may experience a feeling of stagnation.

Psychologically heathly individuals meet challenges of each stage and are thus prepared for the challenges of the next stage. Psychologically unheathly individuals may fail to meet the challenges of a particular stage and therefore must deal with the conflicts that emerge from this failure in the stage that follows."

well, now I've probably lost you and most of the people in here, will leave it at that!

"Neurotic: is someone suffering from a neurosis, pyschology term; an emotiomal disorder marked by extreme anxiety, obession or hysteria" I wouldn't say that all women are neurotic, but quiet a few are sadly, mainly the ones that follow fashion, always got to have the new thing thats in, if you know what I mean? But alot of it can be put down to the magazines, books, films models etc etc etc (as you mentioned) what ever they have you just want as well, and thats when the trouble can start, your not thinking for yourself and just follow what others are doing and wearing (just to stay with the "in crowd"). You end up becoming another number, a stastistic of a world that doesnt care? (who sang that?)

The thing is, do you want to lose your individualision, and go with the crowd?


blackwidow

A welcome response, black-w, and one is always glad of input at a verifiable level here.
It's probably true to say that -at the academic level -Freud is utterly discredited in UK circles (although at the commercial level practitioners flourish).
The "generative" aspect you mentioned intrigues me (even though it's a bit of a buzz word, in Erikson's context, cribbed from linguistic circles) and I've often wondered how it is that men will often say that all women think about is children and yet I have known so many men quite desperate to be fathers.
As for "neurosis": it is "relative" in a way that psychosis isn't - what's neurotic in one culture may be normal in another (a strict Brahmin Hindu will go bananas if anyone of a lower caste has touched his crockery). I tend to think of aspects of female behaviour/conduct as merely different (conceding that there are about 3 billion females and they ain't all the same). I think that much in the West is due to media/cultural pressure (the inadequacies -if such they are - of men are dealt with less severely at present)
I also suspect that a girl's puberty, woman's cycle and the subsequent menopause can create patterns of behaviour about which men know nothing and with which they can at best sympathise.
There may also be fear (hence the myriad taboos re menstruation) and accusations of neurosis seem a not unlikely way of dealing with ignorant fear.

Your original post is a stereotypical statement made against the other half of the human race based on you observing a small number of women who obviously already knew they were attractive enough to get you to watch them instead of the order of magnitude more women that were in the same vicinity getting on with their lives without a single need to have a looksie from you.

Take it back and get on with your life.

[Edited on 3-8-2003 by Valhall]

Valhall!

Was that for me or Estragon?



blackwidow

Well, now silly girl, why would it be for either one of you. It was for the thread originator...animalomega.

Ladies, I value all of you inputs on this topic, well thought out and you did it without resorting to flames (which would have been easy to do)

My personal take is that the originator of the post is intimidated by strong women and instead of using the word confident, he picked neurotic, not a wise choice indeed.

I also believe that you get out of life what you put into it, sometimes more, but never less. Meaning that for every confident, professional, and talented female who is finally beginning to reap the rewards of the hard work they put into life, there is one whom is being promoted through other channels, whether it be quota's, sex appeal, or fear of public scrutiny, I'm sorry, but it happens. This does not help the situation in this country at the present time. Most man will see the professional get promoted and assume that the reasons are the one's I listed above, making it just that more difficult for the women to achieve success and maintain it without looking over her shoulder or feeling pressured to look pretty (see botox) and starve herself to maintain her current level of success (which is utter bull s-h-i-t, we have to change this). sorry about the rambling, I could go on forever.....

We have a lot of work to do in this Country (THE US), as a business owner I hire the best person for the job regardless of race or gender, and I find that I generally meet or exceed my recommended employment figures yearly. I have many talented women, and men, who work together to solve our issues daily, and if one doesn't fit into the mix, they must leave.

I applaud confidence, I support women's lib, I fire abusers and the ignorant, regardless of what organ they utilize to use the bathroom.

More women are treated for psychoneuroses than men.
Women might tend to inflict damage inwardly, but men will act out more. Fortunately for women, such inward damge is ameliorated by effective communication of emotional states better than it often is for men.(Sweeping, but based-in-fact, generalizations).

I never extended Freud's concept of pleasurestick envy to envy of the owner of the pleasurestick and willing subjugation to pleasurestick owners as a result of it, more just envy of the pleasurestick itself.

I would not pass up my male hangle dangle for a female hangle dangle. I have talked about this kind of stuff with ThePrankMonkey, who taught me some of the cruder points of hangle dangle physiology, but I'm not sure if he's learned to tell yet between a spider monkey male hangle dangle and female hangle dangle; I just remember him saying a spider monkey female hangle dangle puts his own hangle dangle to shame.

I hope he isn't as neurotic as a woman because of this hangle dangle handicap.

Originally posted by AlnilamOmega
i know it's not just me. females, in the US most specifically, are generally self-restraining and overly critical of both themselves and the surroundings. it's almost like they are on 24/7 rapist-prevention alert or something.

and to make things tougher, it seems that there is a preconception in their minds that every male around them will immediately become attracted to them. you know what i mean. that look of arrogance.

not all are so bad. im not trying to be chauvinistic here; as a matter of fact, as a male, I recognize and freely admit to the superiority of the female gender.

but seriously; anyone else catch this kinda thing going on, too? and no, I didnt just come from a bar all sexually frustrated or something.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh Man What Am I Do"in Here,

I have been avoiding this thread. I must be tired and just walked in the wrong door. Might as well jump in it now though!
Your first paragraph is

On second thought I am tired and I always make my only mistakes when I am tired. I'll be BACH!

And I am thorughly surprised how civil this has been, congratulations and goodnight

tut tut sleeep

seedy simplification on the topic,

women = neurotic
men = a$$holes
Children = pains in the butt
womens mags = 90% ads on improving yourself, 10% telling you your perfect the way you are.
Mens Mags = 90% tits A$$ storys on mutilations and cars, 10% sex facts and tips on bars with with tits a$$ and Mutilations.

welllll, hey, i dunno if I tipped my hat off at the wrong time, but... what? huh?

neurotic was the word of choice because it is mostly neutral on an emotional sense and the least derogatory adjective I could choose at the time.

i forgot to acknowledge the fact that most men are indeed assholes, bent on their hormones and the testoterone that they allow to manipulate their course of life. I was hoping for more analyses on influences that could instigate such a reaction, and only a few have satisfied that idea. most people here chose to concentrate on the absurdity of the question, and rightly so, but I had hoped that it would transcend the initial shock.

I want to assure everyone here that, though it seemed chauvinistic, that is a trait I definitely DO NOT incorporate in my personality.

seedy put it well just now with those equations. very well, as a matter of fact. the take on magazines was most wise, IMHO.

I did not mean to generalize so much to include all the women in the world, just the majority that reside in the US. There is a general form of arrogance that I suppose functions like a form of self-defence in almost every woman worldwide, but the neurotic tendencies seem to be most pungent in our corner of the world.

To avoid what I call "the arrogance", I never look at women I don't know for more than 1-3 seconds. It is a complete hindrance in terms of procuring a relationship, I know, but it is the only way to counteract that female prowess.

I am highly embarrassed of the male tendency to be completely lame when romantically interested. Examples of this lameness include pick up lines, honking at attractive women, and throwing them cheesy compliments with the sole aim of boning them at the end of the night. It is unfair for the rest of us men to deal with the mindset of a woman who has experienced these kinds of lude situations, and it is unfair to the woman to be exposed to such derogatory actions.

But this is probably why "the arrogance" exists, as I said earlier, as a defence mechanism against the constant male bombardment based on the demand for sex.

and I am A L N I L A M omega not animalomega. though the latter isn't a bad name either, valhalla

[Edited on 8/5/2003 by AlnilamOmega]