NEWS: France: Compulsory Biometric ID Cards in 2006

French citizens may soon be required to keep biometric identity cards on their person, and pay for them out-of-pocket. The Minister of the Interior's plan, to be enacted in 2006, in response to increasing terrorist threats from the AZF, identity theft, and other crimes. French citizens have not been required to carry identity cards since 1955. In addition to the currently modest information that is proposed to be stored on the card, the law would leave loopholes for additional required information to be added later.



There has been a lot of planning leading up to this. The objectives were set out in 2002, and development for the remote reader to be used with the e-card started in September 2004. I honestly cannot decide this is a great idea or a terrifying idea, so I'll simply outline the good, the bad, and the ugly.

THE GOOD - One word: convenience. Having all that information in one card, with the ability to "slot" additional info like bank account, credit cards, etc, would really cut down on the number of cards one has to keep in their wallet. The other obvious benefit is tighter security for sensitive areas with the remote readers.

THE BAD - Not only are the cards compulsory, but the additional 25 million the cards will cost the system will be passed on to the people. The card does not appear to have a function limiting the user to the true owner, it merely contains everything someone would need to become that person, thus theft of such a card would be the ultimate identity theft to date. With a stolen police remote scaner, such a crime would be as easy as walking past someone.

THE UGLY - I for one am not thrilled about yet another way to be tracked at leisure. The concerns about NWO and "Mark of the Beast" will raise all sorts of alarm bells to the public. Whether or not they are valid is up for debate, but nevertheless, the people will not be happy about it. Another, more realistic concern I personally have is the sale of biometric unique IDs to corporations to further innundate us with advertisements.

CONCLUSION - I can take comfort that, if the bill passes, we'll be able to view the effects from the outside. If it works fine, and people's rights are not violated, I may be less inclined to resist, as the security and convenience is a good point. However, I'm not getting my hopes up.

Related News Links:
europa.eu.int
www.diplomatie.gouv.fr
www.cryingvoice.com
www.atsnn.com

Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
Microsoft Biometric products - biometric identity theft risk?
politics.abovetopsecret.com...
Mystery Group Tries To Blackmail France (from ATSNN)

I so dont want the world to turn down this road, I think alot of people world-wide will go underground.

[edit on 13-4-2005 by SpittinCobra]

Well, it all comes down to whether or not it is abused, and whether or not the user stays within the law. I mean, technically, all primal instincts aside, so long as we're always on the legal side of life, then we shouldn't care if we're being scanned and tracked constantly, so long as it doesn't interfere with our life...

...right?

But there's that basic human instinct that really doesn't want to be tagged. Perhaps it's our predatory nature, at a deep biological, instinctual level. Perhaps it's religious fears, or fears of the New World Order. Perhaps it's simply an overdose of sci-fi and religious parable.

Or maybe ol' Thomas Jefferson got it right when he said "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

You are right on both parts.

I think us UK citizens will be getting them before our French neighbours. The wheels are already in motion and have been for over a year for these cards.

I dont want them, they are a complete waste of money and a further tool to impinge on our personal freedom.

"papers please" what the hell is this? Soviet Union?

The card does not appear to have a function limiting the user to the true owner, it merely contains everything someone would need to become that person, thus theft of such a card would be the ultimate identity theft to date. With a stolen police remote scaner, such a crime would be as easy as walking past someone.

Since it's a biometric card, there must be some 'biological' identification incorporated in the card to identify the owner.

If they can scan your card remotely, it has to have an RFID chip and the French will be forced to carry it. This means total control of the population - every traffic offence, theft, non payment of debt, or civil disobedience can be flagged in a computer and your location pinpointed whenever you pass a scanner.

Sound good to anyone?

If they can scan your card remotely, it has to have an RFID chip and the French will be forced to carry it. This means total control of the population - every traffic offence, theft, non payment of debt, or civil disobedience can be flagged in a computer and your location pinpointed whenever you pass a scanner.

I do not think they are doing it to control people that sounds ridiculous to me when used.

This is a whole new era since 911 and it is extremely important that everyone is exactly who they claim to be. With the current systems in use no one has anyway of telling, but with the new ID cards they can.

Also as others have noted the US, UK and now France are going for virtually the same types of cards to protect their security. The way many make this sound as if each government is out to control everyone and that is not the case, all they want to know is you are who you say you are.

This is a whole new era since 911 and it is extremely important that everyone is exactly who they claim to be. With the current systems in use no one has anyway of telling, but with the new ID cards they can.

Yeah, but in many ways I don't WANT that much security. I don't want everyone's name in a database, and their locations tracked, and their actions flagged automatically by remote sensors. I don't care how many terrorist bombings it prevents or how many criminals it captures. With that much security, mankind learns nothing more than new, more sophisticated ways to break the law and frame someone else for it.

I enjoy a certain amount of ambiguity and anonymnity in my life. I hate the bastards that did 9/11, whoever the hell they were, and I honor the victims of that terrible day. And while I would never be arrogant enough to make a statement like "the victims gave their lives for our freedom," I would say that their lives are part of the cost of freedom.

My parents raised me with the concept that I should always have just enough rope to hang myself with. I had strict rules, but lax enough observation of them that I could have broken them, if I wanted to, and maybe even get away with it a few times, but eventually, I would be caught, and the rope would be yanked back until I built up enough trust to earn more slack. I live my life by this principle, and Liberty should work the same way.

What Freedom is there, when the choice to disappear, the choice to break the law, the choice to go underground, is removed? Already we are tracked relentlessly by creditors and advertisers, with no recourse but to either cut off our internet and phone connections, or find and fill out "Do not contact" lists. Add the government to that, and add the fact it is no longer limited to your home, your computer, or your phone, but now wherever you go, you can be scanned, without your knowledge or consent.

It's not worth the cost. I'm comfortable living in a world where occasionally a terrorist will set off a bomb, somewhere on Earth. I'm comfortable knowing that one day, I might get murdered, and no one would ever know the killer's ID.

I can live with this, because I like the idea that if I wanted to, I could live in a house with no computer, no phone, and the only people who would ever know I existed would be the stores I chose to go to, and the people whom I chose to work with. Liberty and Privacy are the benefits, sometimes blood is the cost.

We need the right to be anonymous. Maybe we never choose it, maybe we get hurt by it, but by god, we knew in founding this country that liberty is double-edged sword, and sometimes it sheds the blood of the innocent as well as the guilty.

as posted by mythatsabigprobe
If they can scan your card remotely, it has to have an RFID chip and the French will be forced to carry it. This means total control of the population - every traffic offence, theft, non payment of debt, or civil disobedience can be flagged in a computer and your location pinpointed whenever you pass a scanner.

One simple question: You have a bank account, use a debit card, or credit card, mythatsabigprobe?




seekerof

It's not worth the cost. I'm comfortable living in a world where occasionally a terrorist will set off a bomb, somewhere on Earth. I'm comfortable knowing that one day, I might get murdered, and no one would ever know the killer's ID.

Now that is a very bold statement and I doubt you would sing the same song if heaven forbid some terrorists killed your loved ones. It is very easy to say, yet also very hard to stand by and do nothing.

Now that is a very bold statement and I doubt you would sing the same song if heaven forbid some terrorists killed your loved ones. It is very easy to say, yet also very hard to stand by and do nothing.

I stand by my bold statement.

People who can't accept the cost for something do not deserve to have it. We didn't walk up to Britain and politely say "We'd like to be free now, do you mind, terribly?" It was a bloody, horrible war that killed soldiers and innocents alike on both sides, and even countries besides Britain and America... like France, oddly enough.

Throughout our country's history, we have paid the price in blood a thousandfold, and will continue to do so, for as long as there is Freedom worth fighting for. The day you take that freedom away, is the day there is nothing worth dying for.

That's the cost of Liberty: You give people the freedom to become animals. If they do so, you kill them or lock them up for life, but the majority are kept in check merely by the knowledge they could become one if neccesary. Most are kept in check by the fact that they can break a few minor laws, every now and then, with no one knowing, such as a California roll through a stop sign, or speeding down a highway.

Once you put someone's life under a microscope, so that they cannot get away with anything at all, the strain becomes too much.

And as for my loved ones...

My family has long been aware of the price, and has always paid it, in one way or another. My friends have been aware of the price, and have paid it. I've had more friends and relatives die, either to protect Freedom, or because of Freedom, than most people on this forum have years in their life.

That's why I've always been a Patriotic person, even when it was uncool to be a patriot. But the reason we fought wasn't for the red, white, and blue, but the liberty it afforded us. If this happens in America, I'm leaving. Flat out leaving. In a plane, train, car, or box, I'm leaving.

So really these cards are just like regular id cards, they just have fingerprints and some fancy 'puter' stuff to sign documents and the like, to verify you id electronically.


Seems good enough. Especially considering that france is socialist and doesn't have the same protections that US citizens would have.

Couldnt agree with TheLibra more. What point is there trying to protect our way of life from terrorists when all we have left is our life.

Life without liberty is worse than death.

Nygdan, don't forget, the French cards also have the ability to be read remotely. It's not a "volunteer your papers" it's an easily made tracking device.

Also, if France does it, it's only a matter of time before it gets to the US.

Someone mentioned Germany already does it, but their ID cards are paper, and can't be read remotely.

subz, would carrying an ID card really make you feel that there is no freedom left worth living for?

I think people are overreacting just a wee bit.

You all do drive don't you? Got a license? Or as seekerof said, how about an ATM card or credit card?

Did you blow a fit when you were told that if you got behind the wheel of a car you were required by law to have that license on your person? Or that you can not access money without having that ATM card on you?

Just wondering.

EDIT: I'm just talking about the existence of the card, not the ability of whomever to read it. It's a bit early to be going crazy about that, since what we have is hardly the official statement regarding them. The RFID thing might not even happen.

[edit on 4-13-2005 by Djarums]

Is it really a big leap from having to carry your biometric information around with you to it being used to limit or restrict who can go where in your own country? Other wise why have it?

Some one trumps up a terrorist threat and enforces a nationwide curfew. Only authourised persons can go out after dark. Or only authourised personel are allowed in the capital. These cards make this kind of draconian action possible.

Also if they are RFID enabled the tracking aspect is even worse. Having the government know your exact whereabouts with no justification is wrong. Just say you find out that the government or the President/Prime Minister has commited a crime. Now how would you possibly get away safely when he would have access to your precise location? It makes fertile ground for abuse and prohibits nothing with regards to terrorism.

The criminal will always out smart the system, deal with it. We will never be safe from criminals and terrorists. Selling our personal freedoms down the Swany does not protect us it just leaves us more open to attack from within.

[edit on 13/4/05 by subz]

I understand the privacy concerns, I mean... who wants a publicized record of everything you do and everywhere you go, right?

But I look at it from the perspective in my hometown.

Monday Morning at 8AM: I put my Credit Card into a machine underground and it spits out a Yellow card that I can use to pay for train rides.

Monday Morning at 8:05AM: I swipe that Yellow card on a turnstyle and board a train.

Monday Morning at 8:45AM: I go to work and my HID card opens the front door for me.

Monday Afternoon at 2:00PM: I get in the car and drive to a meeting in New Jersey. I pay a toll on the highway using my EZ Pass.

Monday Afternoon at 4:30PM: I return from Jersey and pay the Lincoln Tunnel toll with my EZ Pass.

Monday Evening at 7:30 PM: I swipe that Yellow card again and head home.

Monday Night at 11:00PM: I go out for a few beers and pay the tab with my Visa.

Every single thing I did on Monday is fully traceable by the government. The Metrocard I purchased is associated with my credit card, so are the tolls etc. And you're worried about an ID card tracking your movements.

We're already there. I honestly don't see how an ID card would make it worse from that perspective.

I'd be a lot more in favor of the biometric card if

A.) The only possible way to use it would be if only the person it were issued to was bearing it.

B.) There wasn't a remote scanning ability for it.

I'm seeing a lot of replies along the lines of "it's just a card, I use cards all the time"

Did these same people not read the part about remote scanners? Your VISA check card does not have remote scanning, your driver's license doesn't, your credit cards do not have remote scanning. If 20 seconds were spent on a search engine you can find the technology is not only out there, it's being produced and about to be implemented.

Now that I think about it, there's yet another reason it bothers me. Aside from the most ridiculously stupid of terrorists and criminals, the bad guys aren't going to bother with a card, or if they do, it will be someone else's that resembles them (for the photo scan). The only people who will truly be tracked with any accuracy are the average joes who do nothing more than buy a beer and watch "The Daily Show" each night. It's like gun control. If you take the guns away, only the criminals and government will have guns.

Now before we get into a debate about gun control in Japan or Britain, let me just say that's fine for them. It works because it's been in place as long as there's been guns, and it's a smaller place that is surrounded by lots of water. In America, we are bordered by two other countries, for thousands of miles, where criminals who want guns need nothing more than drive a few hours.

Sorry...tangent...

My point is, the tracking thing scares the crap out of me. We've already seen how Bush brazenly refused to allow people who wouldn't sign under oath that they would vote for him to attend any of his rallies. We've seen how the nation has reacted to terrorism with the Patriot Act and Homeland Security. We've now seen how Texas, my home state, is about to implement a tracking tag for cars this year, if the bill passes. We've seen how quickly the government has taken the definition of terrorism to a whole new level to include U.S. citizens who are commiting non-lethal and victimless crimes.

If Biometric ID cards become compulsory in America, it will get abused by the government, they will use it to track anyone and everyone they want, and unlike France, they will have the resources and legal authority already in place to do so.

PS: BTW - The bug was fixed by the staff, this topic can now be voted on.

[edit on 4/13/2005 by thelibra]

and it is one more step down this unchangable path that we take. And yet those who know, choose to deny. Those who believe, embrace.

Well, let me inform you that these cards have already been issued in most unlikely of places, my home country Bosnia. I had to get one too.
It is not as bad as you think. I think we were an experiment to see how it would all work before they implement it in other countries.

When you apply for this card, they take your fingerprint and store it in a secure central computer together with your photo. The print is stored on the card too. So, when you are asked for ID by police, the print on the card has to match your print on the finger AND the print stored in central computer. Now, that makes identity theft quite difficult. There was something about the photos, the way they were embedded on the card, that makes it difficult to forge, but I forgot what it is.
If someone steals your card, puts their fingerprint on it, they still have to change the fingerprint in central computer to match theirs and they would have to change the photo. I've heard that if anyone would try to forge these cards, they would have to make a new card and not simply change the old one. That requires equipment, that means they have to buy it somehwere and that means it can be traced. It is not impossible to forge the cards, but it is much more difficult then to simply replace a photo on old ID cards.

The card contains your name, photo, address, signature and fingerprint, thats it. For a normal everyday person this just makes life easier. Nobody is tracking you, no country in the world has that much resources to track everyone at any given point in time.

You do have to worry if you used identity theft for crimes like human traficking, drug drade and all that, because those activities just became a lot harder with these new cards.