Ukraine official: forces may pull out of key eastern city

originally posted by: IAMTAT
WTF!...I thought Ukraine was winning this thing.
Everyone says so.

a reply to: Freeborn

Never thought I'd see the day when so many US Libertarian Defenders of Freedom were so vocal and excited in their support of a de facto Dictator's forces in an invasion of another sovereign nation.

At least previous times the US went to some effort to make something like weapons of mass destruction and stuff. When corruption is all there is to keep this one together, meh...

I know it is more complicated than that, but I ain't seeing it looking at the history of the place.

originally posted by: Freeborn
Seems undeniable that Bakhmut is about to fall to Russian forces.

Never thought I'd see the day when so many US Libertarian Defenders of Freedom were so vocal and excited in their support of a de facto Dictator's forces in an invasion of another sovereign nation.

Weird.

Not sure if this is directed at me, but It's my thread I'll chime in regardless.

All Im against Freeborn is the huge amounts of money, munitions, and weapons being sent without any oversight and auditing. Especially when there is no end in sight and the US really does need to keep an eye on China.

but perhaps more importantly and Bakhmut is an indicator, strategically we can't throw finite resources at an area and then abandon it later. If they couldn't hold Bakhmut perhaps it should have been abandoned long ago.

Forget looking at it politically even though Im against how much thats been sent, now that it's committed and in country, it had better be used to its maximum efficiency militarily. I damn sure want Ukraine to win and for them to find lasting peace and security.

Im not blind to the fact that that region in that region of Ukraine these people have been fighting the Russian separatists for years. Who knows maybe it was all part of the plan, to hold the advance in the east till the rest of the country could receive aid.

a reply to: putnam6

Just a general observation of some opinions expressed in this thread and others by various members.

I have no desire to derail your thread so probably best not to go into it in too much depth here.

I understand the concerns about the amount of money and weaponry going into Ukraine and the lack of oversight.
But what were the alternatives?

The fact remains Putin ordered Russian forces to invade a non-threatening sovereign nation, a nation his country whose borders and independence Russia had pledged to respect and to never invade.
If that invasion had been completely successful Putin would be in control of the whole of Ukraine and eyeing up his next adventure.

No matter what happens next in Ukraine I very much doubt Putin will be contemplating invading anywhere else in Western Europe.
And that is because of the resistance shown by Ukraine.....and that resistance wouldn't have been possible without NATO aligned countries aid.

originally posted by: Freeborn
Seems undeniable that Bakhmut is about to fall to Russian forces.

Never thought I'd see the day when so many US Libertarian Defenders of Freedom were so vocal and excited in their support of a de facto Dictator's forces in an invasion of another sovereign nation.

Weird.

Or maybe, and I am just putting it out there, maybe some can see through the smoke and mirrors.

It´s not an hour ago that they interviewed a high ranking, retired Bundeswehr General or whatever. His role is normally: Ukraine good, everything the Ukraine does good, everything Russia does, bad. Even he had to admit that he absolutely can´t understand why the Ukrainians send more and more troops there, set up in three defensive lines. Bachmut is a little provincial capital with exactly for roads going in and out, three of them controlled by the Russians for ages meanwhile.

Even that pro-NATO warhawk said that it absolutely makes no sense anymore trying to hold Bachmut and sacrificing countless troops there, day by day, hour by hour. He also said it is a tragedy and not right to send soldiers there just to die for maybe only one cheap reason: symbolism. It is the western MSM that writes about Bachmut as if it were Kiev. And that Zelinskyi is doing what he is doing, sending young people into the "meat-grinder", only because of the symbolism and nothing else.

Has that pro-Ukraine NATO warhawk turned into a "Putin-Lover" suddenly or do we see the first admitted failure symptoms of the Ukraines "glorious Endsieg" against Russia? Can´t they hide anymore what is clear like spring water, that the Ukraine never stood a realistic chance against Russia, a huge nuclear power with a non-stop working military industry?

For me it looks like this excuse for the negative effects of Great Reset and Green New Deal is getting too expensive for "somebody" outside Europe who has his eye on the next election. Somebody overseas fears the bill the people will present him soon for his Ukraine money moves. That´s it. RAND Corp made the first moves two or three weeks ago and now slowly this thing will be brought to an end. Simply observe the MSM and the reports about the "glorious Ukraine army" who only is winning and winning and takes Moscow soon. Now they start to tell us a bit more of the reality there. The Ukrainian troops consume more ammo on one day than all the NATO members together are able to produce and deliver in one month.

This charade is coming to an end slowly because the people in the involved western nations are fed up with spending money for a wag the dog war show that corrupt fascist sh!thole can´t win anyway. It really feels like what i said here many months ago, the two WEF Young Global Leader Vlads on each side will extend that show as long as it is possible so the " great transformers" are able to use it as an excuse, to cover the negative effects of the great transformation. Seems that Ukraine excuse doesn´t work anymore, will be brought to an end with territory losses for the Ukraine (read that Rand Corp paper) because it´s unusable now.

What now, Moldova, Transnistria or maybe Taiwan next? Because they need excuses to hide what they are doing to us people.

Cheers

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: putnam6

Just a general observation of some opinions expressed in this thread and others by various members.

I have no desire to derail your thread so probably best not to go into it in too much depth here.

I understand the concerns about the amount of money and weaponry going into Ukraine and the lack of oversight.
But what were the alternatives?

The fact remains Putin ordered Russian forces to invade a non-threatening sovereign nation, a nation his country whose borders and independence Russia had pledged to respect and to never invade.
If that invasion had been completely successful Putin would be in control of the whole of Ukraine and eyeing up his next adventure.

No matter what happens next in Ukraine I very much doubt Putin will be contemplating invading anywhere else in Western Europe.
And that is because of the resistance shown by Ukraine.....and that resistance wouldn't have been possible without NATO aligned countries aid.

No worries FB, Im not a thread policeman at all

Im all about discussing the whole situation, hell I don't know anything for sure, just a dumb-ass, self-centered, public school-educated 58-year-old caucasian American male. Pretty much the sole reason for all the problems the planet has ever had.

All the think tanks and experts Ive seen, seem to believe we are in for a long bloody war of attrition. In that scenario, Ukraine dies a slow bloody painful death just based on the numbers alone.

Unless Ukraine gets an influx of capable soldiers or Putin tires of his Special Military operation it's just the reality.



Ive mentioned it before sarcastically perhaps but, if there is a way to evict Putin from Ukraine and have it not escalate or go nuclear in Ukraine or elsewhere, even double the current price tag, go for it. If there is a coherent and cohesive plan for making this happen Ive yet to see it.

I'm leaning towards Ukraine letting the east absorb all the punishment, hoping the Russians exhaust themselves and then they will go on the offensive either there or elsewhere.

Bakhmut's prewar population is like Chester, Hereford, and Inverness getting obliterated, and yea Id fight to the death to defend my home territory under those circumstances, but it doesn't make it necessarily the right course of action militarily for Ukraine as a whole

It just looks like on the map Russia has pretty much sliced off that eastern portion as was their original intention.

If it cost this much to lose Bakhmut what's the cost to regain it?

if Russia gets munitions and weapons from China it's going to likely get worse, a lot worse before it gets better.

originally posted by: Antisocialist

originally posted by: Spacespider
Fake gif and fake sources.. can you link directly to that gif please

Not the same GIF but this shows Bakhmut virtually surrounded.

storymaps.arcgis.com...

This is a horrible thing to say, but if the carnage is as bad as is being reported, then it's in Russia's interests to draw this out as long as possible. Because the more Ukrainian troops that killed defending this one insignificant city, the fewer that are available to defend other places.

a reply to: putnam6

It's a tactical retreat from Bakhmut so their troops don't get cut off and man and machine sacrificed when they can live to fight another day.

Even if Russia managed to subdue the entire Ukraine or have their armed forces capitulate.

All they will have won is a nation 9 times the size of Ireland where guerrilla warfare becomes the colour of the day.

Plus the fact of the matter is the Ukrainian forces are not going to give up anytime soon no matter if retreat is on the cards or otherwise.

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: MykeNukem
a reply to: putnam6

Russia is getting their ass handed to them.

I don't care what information you post, it can't be true.

Thanks...feeling much better now.
Zelenskyy is THE MAN!

Treasury secretary Yellen personally delivered 1.5 billion dollars to zelensky earlier this week.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: MykeNukem
a reply to: putnam6

Russia is getting their ass handed to them.

I don't care what information you post, it can't be true.

Thanks...feeling much better now.
Zelenskyy is THE MAN!

Treasury secretary Yellen personally delivered 1.5 billion dollars to zelensky earlier this week.

The woman is a Saint, I tells ya....A SAINT!

a reply to: carewemust

Courtesy of the Babylon Bee:

To Save Time, Treasury Secretary Yellen Gives Zelensky Key To U.S. Treasury

"It's simpler this way. Now Mr. Zelensky can let himself in whenever he wants, and help himself to whatever he needs!" said Yellen. "As a government official, I want to help the government be as efficient as possible. This removes all those unnecessary steps that come between Ukraine wanting money and then getting it! I'm a genius!"

"Zelensky, dear, you just take whatever you need, sweetie!"

Sources say Zelensky has already let himself in the massive, highly secure vault 3 times today, helping himself to wheelbarrows full of coins, gold bullion, and Ashley Biden's diary. "We thank the American government for the lovely gift of their citizens' money," he said. "We promise to put this to good use by killing many Russians and buying lots of coc aine. God bless America!"

At publishing time, Zelensky had already made a return trip after blowing all the cash from his first three trips.

It's funny, but in a sad way.

a reply to: Freeborn

Non threatening and sovereign?


See, this is why the shame tactics dont work. You cant start from an honest place.

Yall fell for the MSM tropes and narratives. Its called manufacured consent......

a reply to: JinMI

How was Ukraine a threat to Russia's security?
Russia agreed to Ukrainian independence and guaranteed to respect its borders and independence and not to invade it.
Isn't that a sovereign nation?

So, you assume to accuse me of dishonesty?
Please explain?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: putnam6

It's a tactical retreat from Bakhmut so their troops don't get cut off and man and machine sacrificed when they can live to fight another day.

Even if Russia managed to subdue the entire Ukraine or have their armed forces capitulate.

All they will have won is a nation 9 times the size of Ireland where guerrilla warfare becomes the colour of the day.

Plus the fact of the matter is the Ukrainian forces are not going to give up anytime soon no matter if retreat is on the cards or otherwise.

Yet using tactical retreat sounds like some of Japan's WWII explanations of defeats as incomplete successes. LOL Iraq ran a tactful retreat from Kuwait too.

In a war of attrition, not sure how successful a tactical retreat is after you have spent a year of your troops dying expending munitions and weapons better used elsewhere or defending another more critical area.

a reply to: DerBeobachter

Now that Ukraine is successfully broken down, and all traces of illegal activity blown up or killed, we can have the glorious Building Up, brought to you by Monsanto, Bayer, Pfizer, et al, as they turn the glorious farmland into GMO hell along with forced medical experimentation on the once mostly pure Ukraine population. Oh, and probably some new US military bases too! And the US tax payer only had to pay thousands of dollars per person, to get nothing back.

a reply to: putnam6

Winning a battle and taking a town don't win you the war through putnam6.

I'm not exactly seeing the comparison between Japan's war in the Pacific and Russia's war in Europe against Ukraine, apples and oranges really.

If anything the situation is somewhat reminiscent of Operation Barbarossa in reverse, as opposed to Operation Watchtower or any of the subsequent US island hops on the way to victory.

I think Ukraine's performance thus far against what was supposed to be one of the top armed forces on Earth aka the Russian Federation is rather admirable to be honest.

And it's not like they are about to give up anytime soon.

Even if Russia were to take the Ukraine all they would have served to achieve is to double their borders with the rest of the NATO nations by way of driving Finland and Sweden into the arms of NATO.

Russia is now the European pariah for the foreseeable future no matter which way the conflict goes.

Whats the point in keeping a destroyed town on the edge of the Russian line anyways? I think everyone knows that Russia would eventually take it, just at what cost. The strategy is to kill as many of them and destroy as much of their equipment as possible, then withdraw.

Russia has to take the rest of the Donetsk region if it ever wants to be in a position to negotiate for peace while still having something to show for their several thousands of dead soldiers, thousands of blown out tanks.

The entire special military operation objective is to take that region (and Luhansk) because the poor ethnic Russians there are being genocided by nazis. This is what Putin and the Kremlin have fed the Russian people and the reason that they invaded to begin with. They have to at least get that territory before they will be open to ending their aggression and I'm sure Zelensky knows this, he has to.

Zelensky also knows that the Donetsk province would be impossible to govern as it's been Russian since 2014 and likely longer than that, we just started hearing about it then. The only way to govern that province would be to exterminate all signs of pro-Russian life there, justifying the invasion to begin with. If Zelensky simply ceded Donetsk and Luhansk, the war would be over but he's keeping it going with unrealistic goals of taking back every inch of Ukrainian territory that wasn't very "Ukrainian" to begin with.

As for Crimea, that's different and the gem or star on the crown of the ruler, whoever it is. I really don't see Ukraine being able to retake it, even with all of these western tanks that they're about to get for the sake of going on the offensive.

I've also wondered where they are getting new soldiers from to replace losses. Russia has an endless supply of poor saps to sacrifice from regions way over in Sibera that are of certain ethnic groups. There's been videos spread of soldiers from those regions complaining that they're literally being used as cannon fodder.

originally posted by: chris_stibrany
a reply to: DerBeobachter

Now that Ukraine is successfully broken down, and all traces of illegal activity blown up or killed, we can have the glorious Building Up, brought to you by Monsanto, Bayer, Pfizer, et al, as they turn the glorious farmland into GMO hell along with forced medical experimentation on the once mostly pure Ukraine population. Oh, and probably some new US military bases too!

And the US tax payer only had to pay thousands of dollars per person, to get nothing back.

Blackrock and Vanguard as well.

Brought to bear by Raytheon, Lockheed and Boeing.

originally posted by: Spacespider
Fake gif and fake sources.. can you link directly to that gif please

heres a link to the timelapse map..

from ISW:


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storymaps.arcgis.com...