What's the origin of the physical universe?

You often here atheist and materialist ask for evidence of God's existence. They never provide any evidence that supports the notion that an independent physical universe exists.

Before we even get to a natural interpretation evolution, which is a fantasy, you have to first explain and provide evidence that the universe has an independent physical existence.

The Bible tells us how the universe should look. It says all things were Created through the Word and He(Jesus) holds all things together.

Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

The Bible tells us that the Word Created the visible(physical) and invisible(non-physical). It tells us the visible comes from the invisible:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This also means that you know God exists even when you deny that He exists so you have no excuse. In other words, you can't lie to God. He knows all of the times the Spirit has revealed Him to you but you used your carnal mind to suppress the spiritual.

So what does science tell us? Does it support materialism or does the universe look like it was Created from the invisible and is held together by the Word?

First, look at these quotes for Nobel Prize winning Physicist Max Planck who gave us Planck's constant.

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

He also said:

“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clearheaded science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about the atoms this much: There is no matter as such! All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. . . . We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.”

He's saying there is no matter. How can you have a physical independent universe if there's no matter? In other words, matter is derivative but derivative of what? I will give you a clue, THE INVISIBLE!

Just as the Bible says:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

TheBible says we would clearly see the invisible things of Him from Creation and our most accurate scientific theory studies the invisible. God Created the visible and the invisible.

Let's first look at subatomic "particles." subatomic paricles should be called subatomic states. They're not particles in the physical sense like particles of sand or particles of salt. They're particle like states that don't exist independent of the wavefunction or the quantum field. Quantum Field theory tells us that particles are just excitations of quantum fields. Here's some quotes from Werner Heisenberg.

“I think that modern physics has definitely decided in favor of Plato. In fact the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense; they are forms, ideas which can be expressed unambiguously only in mathematical language.”

He also said:

“[T]he atoms or elementary particles themselves are not real; they form a world of potentialities or possibilities rather than one of things or facts.”

Where's the evidence of an independent physical universe? If the building blocks of what we call matter isn't real then what's real? The Bible tells us what's real. The invisible, the spiritual which gives birth to the temporary that we call physical.

The problem is, atheist and materialist can't see past the 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time we're trapped in because of sin. So you're stuck in Plato's cave.

Where do these "particles" come from?

These INVISIBLE FIELDS sometimes act like particles, sometimes like waves. They can interact with one another. They can even, some of them, flow right through us. The theory of quantum fields is arguably the most successful scientific theory of all time. In some cases, it makes predictions that agree with experiments to an astonishing 12 decimal places.
www.quantamagazine.org...

Also, check out these papers:

No Evidence for Particles
arxiv.org...

There are no particles, there are only fields
aapt.scitation.org...

So where's the evidence of an independent physical universe that's not a derivative of the invisible?

a reply to: neoholographic

I am not sure the creation of the Universe and the time of the Bible being written work for me, only my belief

The Universe is 13+Billion years old, how did the information from the begining of time survive to make it into the bible, although the wording is vague enough to encompass what you suggest.

It is certainly an arduous brain frack trying to even contemplate what was before anything existed in its current state, and where did those ingredients come from Big Bang 'soup recipe' confirmed

Not here to detract from your opinion, any opinion is ultimatley valid until it can be proved wrong.

Either way enjoy the fact you are here now, as it is truly all we have.

originally posted by: neoholographic

So where's the evidence of an independent physical universe that's not a derivative of the invisible?

Exactly. All matter exists according to mathematically predictable laws. These laws are so elaborate that we have yet to fully understand them.

To suppose then that random chance somehow made the physical algorithms for the existence of all matter is the most speculative faith of all time.

Rather, it is apparent that these invisible laws were implemented by an invisible Intelligent Designer far beyond our own.

Judging by the findings of archaeologists, evolution is a fact, no mystery there.
We accept that all animals have evolved over millions of years, and have to accept that we are also part of that evolution.

a reply to: cooperton

I agree 100%.

You have to have blind faith with no evidence to accept that the universe that we see just appeared with such mathematical precision. Also, the universe is a derivative of the invisible and looks like the Thoughts or Word of God rather than an independent physical universe.

a reply to: neoholographic

I think the origin of the Universe stems from the will to survive....

a reply to: neoholographic

Colossians 1:16

Romans 1:20

Mate I've read so many post like this over the years by so many different members and when you immediately start quoting the Bible to build a foundation for your claims you lose any serious Philosophical thinkers.

That Jewish text is not the end all wisdom of the Universe and the sooner people realize that the sooner we can move on to some serious conversation.

God , The Creator , The Grand Architect or what ever you call GOD is not a fan of the Bible or the Religion it feeds , The Bible is simply a collection of text of what people think they know about Creation .

and they are wrong .

a reply to: neoholographic

We will never get a better explanation than the one given to us by the six blind men and the elephant.

originally posted by: neoholographic

First, look at these quotes for Nobel Prize winning Physicist Max Planck who gave us Planck's constant.

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

Consciousness---the weightless, massless wonder responsible for, at the very least, civilization and all of it's achievements. Weightless. Massless. It's enough to drive any scientific materialist mad...or point them in the right direction if they're willing.

Even putting religious notions aside, the above intellectually & philosophically suggests it's own answer.

If you take quantum physics into the mix and not rely on Newtonian physics; the fact of creation takes on a whole new perspective.

Is God a quantum being? Yes, the evidence is all around you.

"Matthew 6:23

But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!"

But the quantum isn't the be all to end all. There are more operating systems than the primitive mind of man can even imagine.

a reply to: neoholographic

One might argue that if you're truly at peace with your spirituality, you wouldn't repeatedly initiate holier than thou dialogues on this forum. You'd just sit back and enjoy the fruits of your enlightenment. Something about your hunger for validation tells me you aren't happy.

You also conveniently neglected to mention this relevant passage from The Dilemmas of an Upright Man directly quoting Max Planck as being opposed to your theological model.

originally posted by: lostbook
a reply to: neoholographic

I think the origin of the Universe stems from the will to survive....

I think this could be true when you reach the level of evolution but this is a feature that's paired with adaptation(Intelligent Design).

a reply to: neoholographic

Awesome thread.

Heb_11:3  Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

You lost me at Bible, therefore im out.

I think Norse mythology Yggdrasil was more accurate depiction of the universe with the galactic clusters looking like tree branches. It might be just a big bubble with ad infinitem hasn’t sunk in yet, and eternity could just be a small blip.

Adam…Atom…Up an Atom, or at them, if it flesh?

Spacetime never came into existence as an event. Infinite always exists and existed. Finite minds cannot wrap their heads around infinite and refuse to accept it.

originally posted by: RonnieJersey
Judging by the findings of archaeologists, evolution is a fact, no mystery there.
We accept that all animals have evolved over millions of years, and have to accept that we are also part of that evolution.

NOT What I believe that evidence suggests, NOT archaeologists but Fossil hunting palaeontologists BUT their findings do not prove anything just that similar species appear to have existed at different times.
An example of claims that because something is similar that it must therefore be family or otherwise closely related is wrong can be found in the supposed MULTIPLE times that Rhinos have supposedly EVOLVED then gone extinct again and again and again since the end of the dinosaurs which according to this same argument existed until about sixty-five million years ago.

However, if that is true why are there pictures of stegosaurus, and other dinosaurs on various ancient temples around the world we are told are only a couple of hundred or just a few thousand years old?

The truth is that Evolution is NOT a PROVEN fact it is a THEORY for which the current paradigm in the scientific world accepts as FACT and PROOF evidence that has other alternative interpretations as well.

For example, Log Mats during a great flood can be used to explain the formations of coal deposits as the wood sank and got buried by sedimentary layers lain down by the waters of the great flood.

And it is also worth saying that NOT all Palaeontologists follow the current paradigm with many being every bit as competent and qualified as the supposed mainstream experts yet having a different and many of us here would argue more rational outlook on the find's and what they really imply.

Adaptation DOES occur but the level of Evolution from a single celled organism (never mind the improbable and perhaps even impossible jump from a briny pool of chemicals to a living cell) has no evidence to prove it and just arguments that cells working as a colony eventually became organized and specialized enough to become a complex organism.

One physicist argued that he did not believe it because it was like water FLOWING UP a waterfall and stated that the theory of Evolution goes against the principle of the conservation of Energy.

Rather what we have is a BELIEF in a Godless concept put forward innocently enough by a man who later regretted his own theory (he also did not actually originate it as there were earlier theory's similar to his that could be argued to be the same exact idea) and LAUDED and adopted by an ANTI Church fraternity that was full of the members of several secret society's from the 1700's to the 20th century and indeed even today in the 21st century whom together with their wealth and status used the idea to push religion aside, this was nothing more and nothing less than a power play by their cult (or indeed cults) and the Christian religion at that time since as many of these cult members and indeed there cults were adherents of the works and writings of such men as Voltaire and they used the CATCH PHRASE of their period of war with the church to destroy its hold on society and push their own agenda the so called AGE OF REASON which denies the divine and claims it all appeared out of nothing or when the obvious illogic of this becomes too much they claim that it always was.

But on a side note, to truly answer how it all came to be you would have to answer the greatest mystery of them all, how GOD came into being when we cannot even truly define God though he defines himself to us as far as we Whom believe in Jesus are concerned, that he is God come to us as a Man though as God he is still beyond comprehension, if anything or anyone truly always was then HE is that one, since the universe stem's out of him the argument that IT ALWAYS WAS therefore ceases to be a stupid fall back and actually becomes the truth but one that is NOT as the mainstream paradigm wish to accept it.

originally posted by: MykeNukem
a reply to: neoholographic

Awesome thread.

Heb_11:3  Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Thanks and that's another great verse from the Bible.

a reply to: LABTECH767

I go with the evidence, not what anyone thinks.

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow

Mate I've read so many post like this over the years by so many different members and when you immediately start quoting the Bible to build a foundation for your claims you lose any serious Philosophical thinkers.

You close your mind to objective analysis just because someone mentions a book? This sort of close-minded bigotry (oh the irony) is the most anti-thetical precedent for true philosophical inquiry.

Early Christian philosophers, and Christ Himself, having a corroborating analysis of reality with quantum physicists almost 2,000 years later speaks for itself.

Oh no... I mentioned "Christ"... you must have reflexively shut off your monitor and dumped battery acid on your keyboard by now.