Could Earth Have Once Harbored a Pre-Human Industrial Civilization?

originally posted by: [post=26664916]All Seeing Eye

All Seeing Eye may I recommend you take a moment to read your comments and then think? Who is acting like a nut? Me or you?

The topic of this thread, 'Could Earth Have Once Harbored a Pre-Human Industrial Civilization?" Not a forum for your whacky paranoid delusions.

originally posted by: DragonsDemesne
As cool as it would be for there to be some ancient civilization, I'm not aware of any evidence of such. I think it's quite possible that civilization could have arisen somewhat earlier than conventional history thinks, but certainly not by orders of magnitude like millions of years.

Yes it would VERY cool if such civilizations could be found. I have been looking for such evidence for many decades. That search brought me into Archaeology. So far not a thing points to any lost civilization BUT we are pushing back the beginning of human 'cultured life' beginning with Catalhuyuck, Gobekli Tepe and now Karahan Tepe. I suspect we''ll go back even father. I have and am still looking for evidence of a 'flowering' of human culture in the Eemian the previous warming period after the previous ice age (circa 130,000 years ago). No luck so far.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: [post=26664916]All Seeing Eye

All Seeing Eye may I recommend you take a moment to read your comments and then think? Who is acting like a nut? Me or you?

The topic of this thread, 'Could Earth Have Once Harbored a Pre-Human Industrial Civilization?" Not a forum for your whacky paranoid delusions.

Then why don't you reply to the response you received, about your "Science" being proven wrong.

Atlantis has been discovered?!

Not a forum for your whacky paranoid delusions.

You calling me "Crazy"? LOL LOL

a reply to: Hanslune

Just for you!

originally posted by: All Seeing Eye

All Seeing Eye may I recommend you take a moment to read your comments and then think? Who is acting like a nut? Me or you?

You are with a heavy dash of paranoia

Then why don't you reply to the response you received, about your "Science" being proven wrong.

Your unscientific opinions are not evidence or even a coherent theory.

I have and you ignore anything said to you except for one point (good for you by the way). It did seem to finally sink in that finding ruins in areas where people have lived for many tens of thousands of years is not evidence of a specific ruin from a specific era and a specific name. You have learned that ground excavation will be needed to determine if any of your speculation has any credence. Give your evidence is a story by a guy and loaded with 'claims' that have no evidence to support them. One is credulous

Yep you have delusions that evil forces are working against you. That sir is wackiness level II

a reply to: Hanslune

Your unscientific opinions are not evidence or even a coherent theory.

I do not claim to be a "Scientist", at least not in the traditional mainstream manner. All I have done is the first step in science. OBSERVATION!

I have observed many things in the region of the Richat structure, things that just don't add up to the "Main Stream" opinions. No where in the Scientific method does it state "Peer Review" comes first. Observation comes first.

www.thoughtco.com...

Now, how will people be able to identify this site for what it may have been? There is scant hints, very discript, given by Plato as to what to look for. He gives us the layout and dimensions of the city. And hist hints are quite unique, even in today's world. If you are waiting for someone to dig up a road sign saying "Ringed City 20 miles that way, or "Ringed City Limits", you are the one who might be "Dilutional".

If anyone interested in reviewing the "Observations"!
www.abovetopsecret.com...

evil forces

? More like ignorant forces, wishing to remain, ignorant.

originally posted by: All Seeing Eye
a reply to: Hanslune


I do not claim to be a "Scientist", at least not in the traditional mainstream manner

Yep you got one thing straight.

Now wait until the situation changes on the ground and fund a scientific expedition to those sites and see if they date back to the time of Atlantis and whether you can associate them with all the evidence we have of Atlantis....oh wait we don't have a single piece of evidence for Atlantis. Well you'll have to wait until then and hope the dates are right and excavations finds the city you think exists there in accordance with Plato.

Until then its just speculation on your part.

a reply to: Hanslune

Well you'll have to wait until then and hope the dates are right and excavations finds the city you think exists there in accordance with Plato.

The latter contain well-preserved freshwater fossils. Numerous concordant radiocarbon dates indicate that the bulk of these sediments accumulated between 15,000 and 8,000 BP during the African humid period. These deposits lie directly upon deeply eroded and weathered bedrock.[16]

en.wikipedia.org...

How long do you think that "wait" is going to be?

originally posted by: All Seeing Eye
a reply to: Hanslune

Well you'll have to wait until then and hope the dates are right and excavations finds the city you think exists there in accordance with Plato.

The latter contain well-preserved freshwater fossils. Numerous concordant radiocarbon dates indicate that the bulk of these sediments accumulated between 15,000 and 8,000 BP during the African humid period. These deposits lie directly upon deeply eroded and weathered bedrock.[16]

en.wikipedia.org...

How long do you think that "wait" is going to be?

www.cia.gov...

Quite some time. They don't have the armed forces to defeat Al-Qaeda.

crsreports.congress.gov...

2-4 generations perhaps.

Bipedal dinosaurs were incredibly common. I mean: considering that their last surviving descendants: birds, are also bipedal.

But most of the dinosaurs we see in the record had smaller fore limbs that were used for something other than flying. Usually with claws on them. It's not too big a stretch to imagine a short lived species emerging that has fingers and an opposable thumb on the end of those appendages. And then using tools.

www.nhm.ac.uk...



We have a hard time even finding early humans from a million years back. Nevermind trying to find remnants of a human-ish dinosaur from 55 million years ago. Just isn't going to happen.

The only reason we find dinosaur bones at all is because they existed for many millions of years before they died out, giving them many millions of opportunities to leave fossils for us. Probably the odds of any dinosaur's skeleton surviving to the present were similar to the odds of winning the Power Ball Jackpot, but many, many, many dinosaurs lived and died.

If the human-like dinos were industrial for just a couple thousand years............. that's just plain too small a time period for there to be enough lottery winners.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Bipedal dinosaurs were incredibly common. I mean: considering that their last surviving descendants: birds, are also bipedal.

But most of the dinosaurs we see in the record had smaller fore limbs that were used for something other than flying. Usually with claws on them. It's not too big a stretch to imagine a short lived species emerging that has fingers and an opposable thumb on the end of those appendages. And then using tools.

www.nhm.ac.uk...



We have a hard time even finding early humans from a million years back. Nevermind trying to find remnants of a human-ish dinosaur from 55 million years ago. Just isn't going to happen.

The only reason we find dinosaur bones at all is because they existed for many millions of years before they died out, giving them many millions of opportunities to leave fossils for us. Probably the odds of any dinosaur's skeleton surviving to the present were similar to the odds of winning the Power Ball Jackpot, but many, many, many dinosaurs lived and died.

If the human-like dinos were industrial for just a couple thousand years............. that's just plain too small a time period for there to be enough lottery winners.

In 1984 the theory came up that comparatively big-brained maniraptorans like the dromaeosaurs might perhaps have evolved their very own sentient tool-maker: ladies and gentleman, I give you McLoughlin's smart tool-making maniraptoran, yet another hypothetical big-brained sentient theropod....

secureservercdn.net...

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: DragonsDemesne
As cool as it would be for there to be some ancient civilization, I'm not aware of any evidence of such. I think it's quite possible that civilization could have arisen somewhat earlier than conventional history thinks, but certainly not by orders of magnitude like millions of years.

Yes it would VERY cool if such civilizations could be found. I have been looking for such evidence for many decades. That search brought me into Archaeology. So far not a thing points to any lost civilization BUT we are pushing back the beginning of human 'cultured life' beginning with Catalhuyuck, Gobekli Tepe and now Karahan Tepe. I suspect we''ll go back even father. I have and am still looking for evidence of a 'flowering' of human culture in the Eemian the previous warming period after the previous ice age (circa 130,000 years ago). No luck so far.

Clearly evidence of a short lived advanced civilization from millions of years ago would be unlikely to survive ON EARTH.

But what if they made it to space? Do you think we might find something on Mars? (Like maybe a reptilian looking face on a mound somewhere?)

On the Moon, the upper surface actually erodes quite a bit over time. There are these tiny little fast moving grains of sand called "micro meteors" flying around the solar system, which randomly smash into the surface of unprotected rocky objects like the Moon, and wear down the rock.

Mars might have just enough atmosphere to be safe from that, although it is still pretty thin.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Bipedal dinosaurs were incredibly common. I mean: considering that their last surviving descendants: birds, are also bipedal.

But most of the dinosaurs we see in the record had smaller fore limbs that were used for something other than flying. Usually with claws on them. It's not too big a stretch to imagine a short lived species emerging that has fingers and an opposable thumb on the end of those appendages. And then using tools.

www.nhm.ac.uk...



We have a hard time even finding early humans from a million years back. Nevermind trying to find remnants of a human-ish dinosaur from 55 million years ago. Just isn't going to happen.

The only reason we find dinosaur bones at all is because they existed for many millions of years before they died out, giving them many millions of opportunities to leave fossils for us. Probably the odds of any dinosaur's skeleton surviving to the present were similar to the odds of winning the Power Ball Jackpot, but many, many, many dinosaurs lived and died.

If the human-like dinos were industrial for just a couple thousand years............. that's just plain too small a time period for there to be enough lottery winners.

how about octopi?

they'd live in the oceans.

they could have had the smarts .

the dino killer would have screwed up the oceans too.

a reply to: tamusan

I would think the best evidence of an earlier industrial civilization on Earth, and maybe the only evidence that would 'survive' for the eons, would be cut diamonds.

Our civilization has studded the surface with hundreds of millions of the things, both industrial, and aesthetic in purpose.

If we could find cut diamonds in strata of the Earth from an earlier age, that would be good evidence of a prior industrial civilization.

I believe our cut diamonds will survive, for whatever future civilization that may look back eons from now, and wonder about the 'holocene hypothesis' haha, or whatever they might call our age in the future.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

Clearly evidence of a short lived advanced civilization from millions of years ago would be unlikely to survive ON EARTH.

How can a civilization be short-lived and yet become advanced?
That is, you gotta start somewhere and there's all these rocks laying around...

Harte

originally posted by: Fowlerstoad
a reply to: tamusan

I would think the best evidence of an earlier industrial civilization on Earth, and maybe the only evidence that would 'survive' for the eons, would be cut diamonds.

Our civilization has studded the surface with hundreds of millions of the things, both industrial, and aesthetic in purpose.

If we could find cut diamonds in strata of the Earth from an earlier age, that would be good evidence of a prior industrial civilization.

I believe our cut diamonds will survive, for whatever future civilization that may look back eons from now, and wonder about the 'holocene hypothesis' haha, or whatever they might call our age in the future.

I wonder what kinds of explanations would be attempted, to try to explain it away?

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

Clearly evidence of a short lived advanced civilization from millions of years ago would be unlikely to survive ON EARTH.

How can a civilization be short-lived and yet become advanced?
That is, you gotta start somewhere and there's all these rocks laying around...

Harte

On the scale of the age of Dinosaurs, 20,000 years would be "short lived" .

Even if they had, like we do, about 2 or 3 million years of history, but it mirrored ours, then most of the three million years you'd be seeing artifacts that you can barely call "tool using". Stuff like a sharpened rock that may, or may not, have been used to hit stuff with?

The really advanced tools would only run about 10,000 years, if that. Even if they reached the space age.

someone define industrial for me that paleontologists would be looking for at 50 mil years past?

a fermilab?

steel mills?

nuke plants?

a stonehenge?
answer to the op.

probably not on the land.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Fowlerstoad
a reply to: tamusan

I would think the best evidence of an earlier industrial civilization on Earth, and maybe the only evidence that would 'survive' for the eons, would be cut diamonds.

Our civilization has studded the surface with hundreds of millions of the things, both industrial, and aesthetic in purpose.

If we could find cut diamonds in strata of the Earth from an earlier age, that would be good evidence of a prior industrial civilization.

I believe our cut diamonds will survive, for whatever future civilization that may look back eons from now, and wonder about the 'holocene hypothesis' haha, or whatever they might call our age in the future.

I wonder what kinds of explanations would be attempted, to try to explain it away?

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

Clearly evidence of a short lived advanced civilization from millions of years ago would be unlikely to survive ON EARTH.

How can a civilization be short-lived and yet become advanced?
That is, you gotta start somewhere and there's all these rocks laying around...

Harte

On the scale of the age of Dinosaurs, 20,000 years would be "short lived" .

Even if they had, like we do, about 2 or 3 million years of history, but it mirrored ours, then most of the three million years you'd be seeing artifacts that you can barely call "tool using". Stuff like a sharpened rock that may, or may not, have been used to hit stuff with?

The really advanced tools would only run about 10,000 years, if that. Even if they reached the space age.

My point was there's no sign of such a culture, much less an advanced one. Like I said, you have to start somewhere, and advanced doesn't happen for a VERY long time.
There would be evidence in stone if anyone had been around to use stone.
If this ancient culture existed too long ago for us to be able to detect it, then the entire point is moot, isn't it.

The Silurian Hypothesis does not assert that there may have been an advanced civilization 300 million (or whatever) years ago. It's more about the question of, IF such a civilization existed, what means could we use to detect it?
It's really an exercise in detecting ancient extinct civilizations, with an eye toward extraterrestrial cultures (eventually.)

Harte

originally posted by: Fowlerstoad
a reply to: tamusanI believe our cut diamonds will survive, for whatever future civilization that may look back eons from now, and wonder about the 'holocene hypothesis' haha, or whatever they might call our age in the future.

Yes the diamonds themselves (and other gems) plus the diamond MINES. What would also show up is the use of resources, mines, quarries, slag, drill holes, foundations, wells, all manner of things. These disturbances of the soil would remain as long as that part of the crust was not sub-ducted or eroded away. Pollution from this would flow into sediments that would become sedimentary rock - which would hold the pollution.

Gold items would survive also, ceramics, glass, certain radio-actives too.

originally posted by: Harte

My point was there's no sign of such a culture, much less an advanced one. Like I said, you have to start somewhere, and advanced doesn't happen for a VERY long time.
There would be evidence in stone if anyone had been around to use stone.
If this ancient culture existed too long ago for us to be able to detect it, then the entire point is moot, isn't it.

How would we know the difference between a stone site created 65 million years ago by reptilians, and a similar site created 1 or 2 million years ago by sapiens, or another proto human?

I think the best place to look, if we ever have the means to do serious paleantology there, would be Antarctica. Since Antarctica was frozen over throughout all likely sapiens history, we could be certain that anything we found there, especially if it were far inland, was not sapiens.

The Silurian Hypothesis does not assert that there may have been an advanced civilization 300 million (or whatever) years ago. It's more about the question of, IF such a civilization existed, what means could we use to detect it?
It's really an exercise in detecting ancient extinct civilizations, with an eye toward extraterrestrial cultures (eventually.)

Harte

That's why we *should* look here on Earth for one.