A centrist perspective on abortion

Most people can agree that one of the worst possible crimes a person could commit is to kill a defenseless new born baby, yet recently I see many women speaking about abortion as if it's the most casual thing in the world. To be clear I'm not totally against abortion, I think women should have some control over the process, because I can imagine how traumatizing it would be to get pregnant due to being raped or something like that.

The left constantly claim they care about human welfare, all they really want is to end poverty, to end all suffering and create a socialist utopia. The entire point of the lockdowns was to prevent death and suffering wasn't it? At the same time, I've heard leftists refer to an unborn fetus as a "parasite". I've heard leftist activists and politicians say that it should be possible to perform an abortion moments before birth.

If it's such a massive crime to kill the baby after it is born, what makes it so different moments before the baby is born, or even weeks before the baby is born? It seems to me there is a very obvious problem here: no one can agree when a fetus transforms into a human being with human rights. Because if we could agree on that, then we could logically dictate when an abortion becomes a murder of a legal person.

I think there is a time frame after conception where abortion is acceptable because the baby hasn't developed into a conscious human being. There is a period of time where the fetus is really just an extension of the mothers body, so the mother should have a choice over what happens to her body. But there is also a point in time where the baby becomes its own individual being, and that's well before an umbilical cord gets cut.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder on Jun, 17 2021

Every day now we have countless people reporting on the threat of global warming, the polluting of our oceans, destruction of our forests, etc. As a result of these threats we are forced to give up more and more of our liberty and standard of living. Even if some of these threats are exaggerated, and I believe they certainly are, they are all real threats which can pose a problem if our population grows too large and we do irreversible damage to the planet.

This is why abortion is one of the most critical issues that people need to come to an understanding on, instead of viewing it as a black or white issue. I've never been against the idea of abortion so long as the baby hasn't developed a working brain because I don't think a fetus like that would really be conscious. But when we're talking about a baby with a beating heart and brain activity it seems rather cold to say "my body my choice".

The pro-life crowd needs to understand that if every child was born, the population would explode and the amount of problems we have would grow exponentially. These social issues and the resulting social justice efforts will continue to get worse as overpopulation gets worse and that's one of the main reasons I think life in the future will actually be much harder than today despite the increased technology. The scarcity of resources will be a huge issue.

The intrinsic necessity of death

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

There is never going to be a universal agreement of when the baby is " Life " .

But I do know this , Most woman on Earth have had abortions and don't even realize it . You can have sex and conceive but your body may decide to terminate the conception for what ever reason and you will have a particularly heavy period that month , or it can carry a little longer and become a full fledged miscarriage which is essentially your body telling you its not the proper time to carry a child . Further more you have the " morning after pill " which is effectively an over the counter abortion , and Birth-control which is again just your body having micro abortions over and over again .

If an argument must be made for when its morally inappropriate to have an abortion then that would be around 8 weeks when the fetus has a heart beat. The Truth is in the first few months of the pregnancy the fetus is just that a fetus and that is when the abortion should be carried out .

Now these Psychos who have abortions 6 months + into the pregnancy just because they decided they don't want the baby , I have no words for them .

I'm a libertarian conservative , and do believe a women should have some choice . Abortion within the first 2 months max is oke, after that it starts to become more and more awful ,imo, for the baby being aborted

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

That's All Well and Good , but what Exactly is a "Centrist" in a Political Sense IYO > ?

All I will say on this topic anymore is...

Trust mankind to invent something so insidious that the vast, vast, vast, VAST percentage of its adherents have absolutely ZERO idea of what it entails or implies. Abortion is so brutal that, when shown what actually takes place, the vast majority of pro-abortionists all of a sudden become much, much less pro-abortion....

The one thing left on this Earth that remains innocent, the unborn, has been turned into an industry for spare parts, and the backers, as well as the funders of this practice sit pretty.

Here's a small list of things they lie about to justify their sacrificing - which is what this is truly about.

1. The baby does feel pain.
2. The baby did, up until that point, know nothing but safety.
3. Its NOT the babies fault its father was a rapist.
4. The babies body parts are taken out one by one and then given to the highest bidders in medical research - yes those lovely folks....
5. The pro-abortionists absolutely have to rely on outliers as their main argument because they know their position is morally disgusting and indefensible.

What is wrong with people!? Why, why can people support this - it leaves one hopeless! These little rays of light, snuffed out before they've even had a chance to recieve a hug. The Abortion lobby can take a long dive into a shallow lake... They're evil, just like their supporters.

It's known scientifically that a fetus feels pain at 20 weeks; it's unknown if they can feel pain earlier. Sucking and swallowing begins at 16 weeks. I wonder if knowing these facts would make any difference to ones' views? Would knowing that at a certain stage dismemberment to facilitate removal of the fetus occurs? Are people fully informed of all the facts in their decision for or against? I wonder....

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

That's All Well and Good , but what Exactly is a "Centrist" in a Political Sense IYO > ?

What makes my argument centrist is that both those on the left and right will have some issue with it. Some times when I listen to the left and right argue about abortion it's like listening to two stubborn children who refuse to see any other possible perspective. It seems to me there's a pretty obvious solution if we can find some middle ground and agree on a time frame when abortion is acceptable, preferably based on science and common sense. I get some people think abortion is always wrong, but I don't think that position is based in solid science and I don't think it's the moral position either.

If life is so fundamentally sacred, who do many religious people eat meat? Is human life worth so much more just because we are smarter? Many different creatures on Earth kill other creatures and eat them to survive, it doesn't mean those meat eaters are inherently evil. It's simply in their nature to do so. My point is, death plays an important role in existence, it creates a necessary balance. Those nations with the least free populations tend to have the most densely packed populations. That is also why I don't think we should create immortal human beings, at least not until we have colonized other planets.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

conscious human being

So are you OK with killing any human that is not conscious?

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

There is never going to be a universal agreement of when the baby is " Life " .

But I do know this , Most woman on Earth have had abortions and don't even realize it . You can have sex and conceive but your body may decide to terminate the conception for what ever reason and you will have a particularly heavy period that month , or it can carry a little longer and become a full fledged miscarriage which is essentially your body telling you its not the proper time to carry a child . Further more you have the " morning after pill " which is effectively an over the counter abortion , and Birth-control which is again just your body having micro abortions over and over again .

If an argument must be made for when its morally inappropriate to have an abortion then that would be around 8 weeks when the fetus has a heart beat. The Truth is in the first few months of the pregnancy the fetus is just that a fetus and that is when the abortion should be carried out .

Now these Psychos who have abortions 6 months + into the pregnancy just because they decided they don't want the baby , I have no words for them .

A heartbeat is now detected at about 5.5 weeks. It used to be 8weeks but technology has changed. Imagine what it will be in another 10 years.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

" What makes my argument centrist is that both those on the left and right will have some issue with it "



Yes , I see , but what are Your Exact Thoughts and Opinions on this Abortion Thingy as a Centrist ?

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

There is a period of time where the fetus is really just an extension of the mothers body

lol Really?

extension noun

Log In
ex·​ten·​sion | ik-ˈsten(t)-shən
Definition of extension
1a: the action of extending : state of being extended
b: an enlargement in scope or operation
tools are extensions of human hands
2a: the total range over which something extends : COMPASS
b: DENOTATION sense 4
3a: the stretching of a fractured or dislocated limb so as to restore it to its natural position
b: an unbending movement around a joint in a limb (such as the knee or elbow) that increases the angle between the bones of the limb at the joint
— compare FLEXION sense 4a
4: a property whereby something occupies space
5: an increase in length of time
specifically : an increase in time allowed under agreement or concession
6: a program that geographically extends the educational resources of an institution by special arrangements (such as correspondence courses) to persons otherwise unable to take advantage of such resources
7a: a part constituting an addition
b: a section or line segment forming an additional length
c: an extra telephone connected to the principal line
d: a length of natural or synthetic hair that is worn attached to one's natural hair
e: a series of usually three or four characters following a dot at the end of the name of a computer file that specifies the file's format or purpose
8: a mathematical set (such as a field or group) that includes a given and similar set as a subset

So when does this cease? When the umbilical chord is cut?
Does a woman's body have 4 hands, 4 feet, 2 heads, 2 hearts....so on and so forth?
At FOUR WEEKS after conception - the nervous system (+spine and brain) is formed.....so the mother has 2 spines and 2 brains?

Come on....

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

If it's such a massive crime to kill the baby after it is born, what makes it so different moments before the baby is born, or even weeks before the baby is born?

No one is advocating for aborting a nine months gestational, healthy, viable fetus. There are times, however, where the fetus is so deformed, like the brain developed on the outside of skull, if there is a skull.

Anencephaly: Anencephaly is a very serious birth defect in which an infant is born without parts of their brain or skull. The incidence of anencephaly in the US is about 1 in every 4,600 births. As of right now, there's no treatment for anencephaly — and the majority of infants born with it will live for only a few weeks.

A fetal anomaly is considered "incompatible with life," now often referred to as "life limiting," if infant survival rates or quality of life are predicted to be very low. Common examples of these conditions are anencephaly, more severe forms of holoprosencephaly, hydranencephaly, renal agenesis, thanatophoric dysplasia, and triploidy.

In general, if a pregnant person is faced with a fetal anomaly that's considered "life limiting," they may decide between terminating the pregnancy, continuing the pregnancy with palliative comfort care, continuing the pregnancy with intensive care, or waiting until delivery to fully assess the situation.

A woman carrying such a fetus may unexpectedly go to into labor, while she and her family might want the fetus to die in utero rather than have it suffer a slow painful death.

Such situations are very, very rare.

At fertilization: Hair color, eye color, gender, height, blood type and a whole host of other things are determined between the genetic codes of the mother and father. The DNA sequence shares some qualities with the mother but are different enough that the mother’s body could attack it as a foreign body. Especially if a non-compatible blood type…which can be brought to full term with proper prenatal care today because of advances in medicine. It isn’t cheap, but can be done.

Very few abortions are done for Rape/Incest or Threat to Mother’s Health compared to “didn’t want a baby.” Certain activities have certain risks. Smoking cigarettes vastly increases chances of addiction versus not smoking cigarettes. Yet here we are.

a reply to: shaemac

I didn't specify an exact time because I don't feel qualified to give a solid answer to that question, but I did clearly state the baby becomes a separate being before the umbilical cord is cut.

There have been babies born at 24 weeks that have survived and thrived, which means the nervous system is probably formed earlier than that. (IE they feel pain, obviously I am not a doctor)

I dont know anyone upset when the womans body rejects the fetus, its when children that were fully able to survive outside the womb that is killed that enrages people.

The fact some from the left think an abortion at 9 months is fine (idiot mayor from new york), that is what angers people, its part of the reason latinos are turning on the dnc, and moderates are starting to look for a new home politically.

It’s wrong.

The center has spoken.

I draw the line at somewhere in the twelve month range.
If the human is defective, it may not be fully understood until after birth.

I could explain the years of thought that has brought me to this conclusion, but it wouldn't matter- the situation is politicized and has been narrowed down to two extremes, just like everything else.
All or nothing.
Good luck with that.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

If you choose to abstain from sex, is that an abortion of an unconcieved child?

originally posted by: shaemac

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

There is never going to be a universal agreement of when the baby is " Life " .

But I do know this , Most woman on Earth have had abortions and don't even realize it . You can have sex and conceive but your body may decide to terminate the conception for what ever reason and you will have a particularly heavy period that month , or it can carry a little longer and become a full fledged miscarriage which is essentially your body telling you its not the proper time to carry a child . Further more you have the " morning after pill " which is effectively an over the counter abortion , and Birth-control which is again just your body having micro abortions over and over again .

If an argument must be made for when its morally inappropriate to have an abortion then that would be around 8 weeks when the fetus has a heart beat. The Truth is in the first few months of the pregnancy the fetus is just that a fetus and that is when the abortion should be carried out .

Now these Psychos who have abortions 6 months + into the pregnancy just because they decided they don't want the baby , I have no words for them .

A heartbeat is now detected at about 5.5 weeks. It used to be 8weeks but technology has changed. Imagine what it will be in another 10 years.

When I was in the abortion clinic to have an abortion, the technician first tried to see how far along I was.
If it was less than 6 weeks I could abort taking 2 pills. She had the screen turned away from me, and I became curious.
When I took a look I could see a small white flashing 'light'. I asked her what that was and she said the baby's heartbeat

I was less than 6 weeks along.
I did not go through with the abortion. I couldn't. The reason I ever even contemplated was because I was in a very long distance relationship with the father (more than 6000 miles) and it would have complicated things further. I could really never have an abortion, not now not then or ever.

My son will be 11 next month

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

If it's such a massive crime to kill the baby after it is born, what makes it so different moments before the baby is born, or even weeks before the baby is born?

No one is advocating for aborting a nine months gestational, healthy, viable fetus. There are times, however, where the fetus is so deformed, like the brain developed on the outside of skull, if there is a skull.

I think no one is not accurate. There are abortion absolutists that are for this. I think if everybody acknowledges the kooks on their side and starts kicking them out we'll have a much easier time with everything.

The rate of conditions that you're describing decreases steadily after the first trimester and modern tech makes it unnecessary for most of those conditions to be brought to full term. There will always be exceptions and pregnant women that don't get prenatal care, but it's unavoidable.

I'm for abortion being legal, but still recognize that there's a problem with what some on the left are advocating. There's a lot of posturing from both extremes on this and it doesn't reflect the view of most people. The all abortions are fine and all abortions are bad crowds need to accept it isn't going to happen.

Abortions are going to happen, legal or not. Full term babies are not going to be killed without pushback, legal or not. Both sides need to accept it for what it is. 1st trimester, medical exemptions through delivery for unviable fetus and health of mother. Seems like about the best everybody can live with and works in most of the first world, just not here because we allow lunatics to push their agendas of neverending discourse.

Add this to a long list of problems that the vast majority of citizens are close enough on to find a solution that makes everybody a little unhappy, but the people who's job it is to produce laws are incapable of doing the same. Instead they make everybody incredibly unhappy on a revolving door of facilitated outrage. The only reasons I can think of for this to be happening is that the extremes have a much bigger influence on their leadership than is let on or they just don't want to fix it. I think there may be some of both.