What Makes Us Human? The Answer May Be Found in Overlooked “Junk” DNA

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: neoholographic

I've posted dozens of papers over the years. It's up to you to look them up. Your interpretation is wrong.

P.S. Real scientists don't use Google to research topics.

You haven't posted one paper that has refuted anything I have said. When you do blindly post an abstract, it can easily be shown that it has nothing to do with the thread. I will ask again:

When Malaria spreads throughout a population a specific mutation occurs at a specific point that changes Glutamic Acid to Valine. This change gives a survival advantage to those with Malaria. You don't get Leucine mutating into Histidine or Histidine mutating into Valine. You get a specific mutation at a specific point that gives a population where Malaria is spreading a protective advantage against Malaria. There's no evolution needed just a change in the code at the exact point needed to respond to the change in the environment.



Show me evidence of all of the INTERMEDIATE VARIETIES that lost out to this point mutation.

Tell me, how did self assembly encode information on the sequence of a storage medium? How did self assembly originate this information? How did self assembly decide CAC would code for histidine? When a strand of messenenger RNA has the code for histidine in it's sequence, how did self assembly create the information that built the machinery that knows what CAC stands for in the sequence? How did self assembly correlate digital and analog information? How did self assembly create parts that just happen to be the right size, shape and that come together at the right angles? How did self assembly encode information in the sequences of a storage medium that regulate the expression of coded regions?

Of course you use Google, it's your only hope. You have dodged these simple questions the entire thread.

a reply to: neoholographic

I answered you before. Atoms, small molecules, macromolecular structures all contain information. There's nothing unusual or strange about that. Information is contained in a Higg's boson. I don't see why your argument about information is so special. Information storage and extraction is everywhere. Natural self assembly enables small molecules to rearrange into more complex systems. It's not magic.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: neoholographic

I answered you before. Atoms, small molecules, macromolecular structures all contain information. There's nothing unusual or strange about that. Information is contained in a Higg's boson. I don't see why your argument about information is so special. Information storage and extraction is everywhere. Natural self assembly enables small molecules to rearrange into more complex systems. It's not magic.

You didn't answer anything. You keep saying it's not magic well answer these simple questions.

Tell me, how did self assembly encode information on the sequence of a storage medium? How did self assembly originate this information? How did self assembly decide CAC would code for histidine? When a strand of messenenger RNA has the code for histidine in it's sequence, how did self assembly create the information that built the machinery that knows what CAC stands for in the sequence? How did self assembly correlate digital and analog information? How did self assembly create parts that just happen to be the right size, shape and that come together at the right angles? How did self assembly encode information in the sequences of a storage medium that regulate the expression of coded regions?

How did self assembly decide CAC would code for histidine? When did self assembly decide which parts would be the right size, the right shape and come together at the right angles to form molecular machines? How did self assembly correlate analog and digital information?

You haven't provided evidence of anything. You just say self assembly and blindly post abstracts that have nothing to do with the thread. Oh yeah.

When Malaria spreads throughout a population a specific mutation occurs at a specific point that changes Glutamic Acid to Valine. This change gives a survival advantage to those with Malaria. You don't get Leucine mutating into Histidine or Histidine mutating into Valine. You get a specific mutation at a specific point that gives a population where Malaria is spreading a protective advantage against Malaria. There's no evolution needed just a change in the code at the exact point needed to respond to the change in the environment.

Show me evidence of all of the INTERMEDIATE VARIETIES that lost out to this point mutation.

a reply to: neoholographic

I answered you a number of times. You simply don't understand the chemistry of self assembly. Doesn't matter what your subject is - malaria, enzymes, any molecule. It all works the same way. The specificity of the glutamic acid to valine reaction is part of the self assembly chemistry. It's the best fit for the molecule. Aspartate, histidine, d-glutamic acid, d-valine don't fit. They don't work. The only amino acids that fit are the L structures. There's no magic. That's what the functional molecule needs and that's what it got.
You need to study basic chemistry.

originally posted by: neoholographic

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: neoholographic

I answered you before. Atoms, small molecules, macromolecular structures all contain information. There's nothing unusual or strange about that. Information is contained in a Higg's boson. I don't see why your argument about information is so special. Information storage and extraction is everywhere. Natural self assembly enables small molecules to rearrange into more complex systems. It's not magic.

You didn't answer anything. You keep saying it's not magic well answer these simple questions.

Tell me, how did self assembly encode information on the sequence of a storage medium? How did self assembly originate this information? How did self assembly decide CAC would code for histidine? When a strand of messenenger RNA has the code for histidine in it's sequence, how did self assembly create the information that built the machinery that knows what CAC stands for in the sequence? How did self assembly correlate digital and analog information? How did self assembly create parts that just happen to be the right size, shape and that come together at the right angles? How did self assembly encode information in the sequences of a storage medium that regulate the expression of coded regions?

How did self assembly decide CAC would code for histidine? When did self assembly decide which parts would be the right size, the right shape and come together at the right angles to form molecular machines? How did self assembly correlate analog and digital information?

You haven't provided evidence of anything. You just say self assembly and blindly post abstracts that have nothing to do with the thread. Oh yeah.

When Malaria spreads throughout a population a specific mutation occurs at a specific point that changes Glutamic Acid to Valine. This change gives a survival advantage to those with Malaria. You don't get Leucine mutating into Histidine or Histidine mutating into Valine. You get a specific mutation at a specific point that gives a population where Malaria is spreading a protective advantage against Malaria. There's no evolution needed just a change in the code at the exact point needed to respond to the change in the environment.

Show me evidence of all of the INTERMEDIATE VARIETIES that lost out to this point mutation.

I agree. I haven't seen any answers to these basic questions. I looked up self assembly and I haven't seen one paper or article that self assembly can encode information and build machines to decode it.

I'm looking up information on adaption and I don't see evidence of random mutations driving adaption.

a reply to: Romeopsi

So what do you think - that molecules are blank sheets of paper with no information? Every living organism, every atom, every particle contains information. Nothing exists without information.
I don't know what you looked up, but it wasn't the science of self assembly.

I assume you're not a scientist and only use Google for your search. That's a problem.

a reply to: Phantom423

Again, where's the evidence? Where's the published papers that support your argument.

a reply to: Romeopsi

Self-organization phenomena occur throughout Nature across all length scales3b from the creation
of galaxies to the formation of hydrogen atoms. Mammalian cells can be considered highly complex self-organized structures composed of multiple biomolecules brought together by noncovalent self-assembly.

Research like this is all over the scientific literature. Look it up. I'm not going to do it for you as I've posted dozens of papers previously.

a reply to: Phantom423

That says nothing about encoded information to regulate expression.

a reply to: Romeopsi

Man, you're thick. Every atom, every particle, every molecule, every structure contains information. You can call it a code, you can call it whatever you want. A molecule of water, H2O, contains information. Put a bunch together and they flow. Why do you think that is? It's because the INFORMATION in the water molecule describes what the molecule IS and what it DOES.
You're another one who needs some education in basic chemistry and physics.

originally posted by: Romeopsi
a reply to: Phantom423

That says nothing about encoded information to regulate expression.

The reason you're being attacked by Phantom is because he's lying. If self assembly answered these questions there wouldn't be any debate about the origin of life or the origin of encoded information.

There's not one published paper that says self assembly is the origin of encoded information and that self assembly can regulate coded information or that self assembly can correlate analog and digital information.

Phantom is a blind believer that thinks he can keep repeating self assembly when it means nothing as it pertains to this debate.

He claims everything can store information but it can't and it's not a code.

If everything was a code we could store DVD's and PDF files on anything.

The reason we might be able to store all of the worlds information in a thumbnail of DNA is because it's an efficiently designed code.

originally posted by: neoholographic
Phantom is a blind believer...

HAHA!
Man, I spat my tea out laughing at that one. Thanks buddy, you made an average day a corker!
HAHA!

a reply to: TerraLiga

Why?

Phantom nor you haven't provided any evidence to refute what I'm saying.

If self assembly answered any of these questions, Phantom wouldn't have dodged my questions throughout the thread.


How did self assembly encode information on the sequence of a storage medium? How did self assembly originate this information? How did self assembly decide CAC would code for histidine? When a strand of messenger RNA has the code for histidine in it's sequence, how did self assembly create the information that built the machinery that knows what CAC stands for in the sequence? How did self assembly correlate digital and analog information? How did self assembly create parts that just happen to be the right size, shape and that come together at the right angles? How did self assembly encode information in the sequences of a storage medium that regulate the expression of coded regions?

a reply to: neoholographic

Oh yes I have. You just refuse to read it and absorb what the science is saying. Your position hasn't changed - you still think a magic wand was required to initiate biological reactions. You have provided ZERO evidence that a "designer" or whatever is necessary to get everything off the ground.
On the other hand, a multitude of hard evidence has been presented ad infinitum that life on this planet can self organize and metabolize all by itself - no magic wand required.
As far as information contained in molecular structures is concerned, even simple water can be used to store information:

Professor Boris Koch of the Institute for Polar Research (Germany) together with a team of other scientists discovered that the water at the molecular level might keep a “memory” of all organic life forms that have existed in it.
This discovery was made with the help of a powerful mass spectrometer which can accurately decipher the structure of each molecule.

www.learning-mind.com...

How do you think that "memory" occurred? Magic wand or a natural process? We don't understand everything about it, but there it is in black and white.

All your questions have been answered. Move on already.

P.S. The terms digital and analog are human constructs - molecules do not know the difference. The only reason it's important is because of the way we extract the information. Otherwise, doesn't mean anything.

a reply to: neoholographic

And just out of curiosity, why do you think salt knows how to dissolve in water at a certain temperature and pressure? How does carbon know to crystallize into diamond at 6.5 GPa (gigapascals) and 1700 degrees C?

No one knows how life began on this planet, but there's a wealth of experimental data which suggests that small molecules can build into macromolecular structures:

An ongoing challenge for researchers who are studying the origins of life is figuring out how biopolymers such as DNA and RNA might have formed in the first place. In the case of RNA, a candidate for the first genetic material, researchers have observed the formation of its constituent bases and sugars under model early Earth conditions. But demonstrating how those bases and sugars might have combined to form nucleotides under prebiotic conditions has been challenging.

Now, a team led by Nicholas V. Hud of Georgia Institute of Technology has identified nitrogen-containing heterocycles that spontaneously react with the sugar ribose-5-phosphatein waterto form nucleotides (Nat. Commun. 2016, DOI: 10.1038/ncomms11328).

These nucleotides are capable of forming hydrogen-bonded base pairs similar to the Watson-Crick base pairs formed by modern nucleic acids. Furthermore, the newly created building blocks can self-assemble into large, stacked, noncovalent complexes, which could eventually facilitate the formation of RNA-like molecules.

Hud’s team made the nucleotides with the heterocycles barbituric acid and melamine,both of which have been observed in model prebiotic reactions in the past. Both of them reacted spontaneously with ribose with yields greater than 50%. The bases in modern nucleic acids don’t combine with ribose under the same conditions.

“We think we can consider these bases to be very plausibly prebiotic,” Hud says. “They’re doing things that look like they could get us on the road to making an RNA-like molecule.” Such a molecule could have later evolved to incorporate the bases now found in RNA, he contends.

cen.acs.org...

And before Cooperton has a heart attack, I outlined in bold that the experiment was done in water.
And before you have a stroke, I outlined in bold that barbituric acid and melamine have been observed in prebiotic experiments in the past.

It's really curious that you seem to like science, but insist on working ass-ways backwards - you start with a conclusion and then fill in the "evidence". Turn that around and you might make a good scientist.

a reply to: Phantom423

More nonsense.

I challenge anyone reading this thread to post the article from Phantom that answered these questions:

Tell me, how did self assembly encode information on the sequence of a storage medium? How did self assembly originate this information? How did self assembly decide CAC would code for histidine? When a strand of messenenger RNA has the code for histidine in it's sequence, how did self assembly create the information that built the machinery that knows what CAC stands for in the sequence? How did self assembly correlate digital and analog information? How did self assembly create parts that just happen to be the right size, shape and that come together at the right angles? How did self assembly encode information in the sequences of a storage medium that regulate the expression of coded regions?

Phantom hasn't posted one paper relevant to this thread.

Next he posts an article about mmory in water. THE ARTICLE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT WATER BEING A CODE LIKE DNA!

Here's more from the article:

With the use of the latest technology, the water was cleared from all impurities. When its molecular structure was studied, it turned out that only 3% was presented by separate molecules H2O, not related to anything, while 80% was super-giant molecules similar to clear geometric shapes.

What technology? Let's look at the paper:

With the help of this mass spectrometer at the Helmholtz Zentrum München, the German Research Centre for Environmental Health, the team of scientists working with Boris Koch has for the first time succeeded in identifying thousands of individual components in the dissolved organic matter (DOM) in the course of a single measurement. "The device gives us the chemical formula of each molecule and specifies how much carbon, oxygen, hydrogen or nitrogen it contains. We need this information to find out where the individual molecule might have originated from," Boris Koch explains.

At the end of the analysis in the mass spectrometer a kind of chemical fingerprint is produced which, in the course of statistical calculation, permits concrete conclusions to be made about the water in which the dissolved organic matter once swam in. "We are just beginning our studies. However, it would appear that, using this method, we have discovered a new way of exploiting the water's chemical memory," says Boris Koch. For example, scientists can say how old the dissolved matter is, whether it was exposed to strong sunlight along its path through the oceans or which bacteria and types of plankton probably once swam in the same body of water.

www.sciencedaily.com...

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING I HAVE SAID!

Here's a video on mass spectronomy:



Like I said, Phantom posts things that have nothing to do with the thread. This is solid research but it's talking about how scientists used present technology to look at DOM or Dissolved Organic Matter and figure out what swam in the water. Very interesting research that's still early but HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.

If he would have posted an article that said water has a code that tells sea shells what sequence they she be in and when these sea shells are in the sequence specified it creates higher order structures of sea shells, that would have been relevant. You said:

P.S. The terms digital and analog are human constructs - molecules do not know the difference. The only reason it's important is because of the way we extract the information. Otherwise, doesn't mean anything.

They're human constructs that describe real information that's digital or analog. Molecules don't need to know the difference but the Designer of the code knows the difference and so do we. This is why we can encode books and DVD's using this digital code.

Half a Million DVDs of Data Stored in Gram of DNA Paleontologists routinely resurrect and sequence DNA from woolly mammoths and other long-extinct species.

Future paleontologists, or librarians, may do much the same to pull up Shakespeare's sonnets, listen to Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I have a dream" speech, or view photos. Researchers in the United Kingdom report today that they've encoded these works and others in DNA and later sequenced the genetic material to reconstruct the written, audio, and visual information.

www.wired.com...

a reply to: neoholographic

You're the one who posted all the off-topic questions. I just answered them. What does L glutimine and L valine have to do with the topic? Nothing. You would like to divert the conversation so that YOU don't have to answer the questions and acknowledge the experimental data.
Okay with me. I just answer the questions.

a reply to: Phantom423

Another pseudoskeptic posted this:

I've read your two post, but I don't see one iota of evidence to support what you are suggesting. Please post evidence and not ignorance.

I posted how adaption supports what I'm saying along with information encoded in the sequence of a storage medium.

Not off-topic.

You posted an article about memory in water LOL! This has nothing with the code in DNA that regulates expression of coding regions and that's encoded in the sequence of a storage medium.

I'm still waiting for anyone to post me the article from Phantom that answers any of these questions.

Tell me, how did self assembly encode information on the sequence of a storage medium? How did self assembly originate this information? How did self assembly decide CAC would code for histidine? When a strand of messenenger RNA has the code for histidine in it's sequence, how did self assembly create the information that built the machinery that knows what CAC stands for in the sequence? How did self assembly correlate digital and analog information? How did self assembly create parts that just happen to be the right size, shape and that come together at the right angles? How did self assembly encode information in the sequences of a storage medium that regulate the expression of coded regions?

I'll wait..........

originally posted by: neoholographic
Another pseudoskeptic posted this:
I've read your two post, but I don't see one iota of evidence to support what you are suggesting. Please post evidence and not ignorance.

I'm not blind to evidence, it's just you don't have any. Show me evidence of creation and I'm all yours. You just post incredulity because that's all you have.

originally posted by: TerraLiga

originally posted by: neoholographic
Another pseudoskeptic posted this:
I've read your two post, but I don't see one iota of evidence to support what you are suggesting. Please post evidence and not ignorance.

I'm not blind to evidence, it's just you don't have any. Show me evidence of creation and I'm all yours. You just post incredulity because that's all you have.

I've shown you the evidence and you haven't refuted anything. We're 10 pages into the thread and you said show me the evidence LOL. What do you think we have been debating for 10 pages? People are responding to the evidence that myself and others have presented. So it's a little sill to say show me the evidence 10 pages in. You just can't respond to the evidence presented so you blindly say show me the evidence.