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Anti-mask wearers are smarter than mask wearers, concludes MIT study.
page: 22share:
a reply to: EvilAxis
From your link:
You are claiming asymptomatic spread, not symptomatic spread.
Aerosols are trapped not through simple filtration, but through adherence of moisture droplets to the mask by way of surface tension. Viruses do not exhibit surface tension like water does.
Mask efficiency in restricting free air flow does improve greatly with moisture, due to this same surface tension. In other words, the more efficient a mask is at removing a virus, the less air flow occurs through the mask. And the last part of the quote above is exactly what I have been claiming for some time now: a mask may reduce the chances of transmitting the virus, but for one who already has the virus it will increase their viral load and lead to more severe symptoms.
I do accept that some small attenuation of viral loading in the environment might be realized if everyone with an infection were to wear a mask properly. I simply do not believe the same is true if masks are used improperly, and I recognize the fact that they are frequently not used properly. In addition, any viral particles are not "killed" by the mask; they are simply not released into the environment until the mask is removed. At that time, all of the viral contamination accumulated during the mask's use is released at once. Since masks are not discarded according to medical protocols, that means the contamination of the environment is simply postponed, not reduced.
And this postponement comes at the cost of increasing the mask wearer's chances of higher symptomatic complications.
Are you a surgeon? If not, how do you know when they remove their masks?
I am basing my statement on the words of my heart surgeon, cardiologist, and primary care physician (none of which I have ever seen in a face mask... I assume my heart surgeon wore one during the operation, though). I guess they don't know medical techniques or surgery as well as you do, though.
I implied nothing.
So, let me ask for clarification... are you stating that you believe masks should be worn by people based on medical ability to do so, or based on infection? I'm a bit confused here, because it sounds like you are purposely leaving loopholes for the virus to propagate through. Sort of like trying to stop a waterfall with a tennis net.
That is the crux of my overall argument: since it is not possible for everyone to wear a mask, why is it needed for people without symptoms to wear one and place themselves at greater risk of a symptomatic illness that might require hospitalization? My admission of potential attenuation of viral spread above was predicated specifically on proper and universal mask usage and disposal. Yet, such a requirement is simply not possible, because some people will have medical conditions that prevent face mask wearing (like me), and others will wear and/or dispose of them improperly.
Let me ask you: when you take off a mask, do you place it in a medically approved container that prevents environmental contamination for future incineration, or do you place it in an autoclave immediately? If not, if you throw it in the trash, on the ground, or stuff it in your pocket to use later, you are not properly disposing of the mask.
So you believe that face masks are needed without regard to stopping potential viral spread? After all, someone who is not infected cannot infect others.
More like "racket science."
Please name one time when people were required to wear face masks because of a cold going around. Please name one time the same happened over an influenza virus? Both are known to be contagious, and some influenza viruses can be just as deadly as the Chinese virus. But no one has ever suggested that people all wear face masks because of any other disease than this one.
Why?
Because, as is indicated by the continual spread of the Chinese virus over a year later, masks do nto stop the spread... at best, they slow it a little. That was the reasoning behind the lockdowns as well... "slow the spread," remember? "For two weeks"... to "prevent overloading the medical facilities"? That was over a year ago; the spread hasn't appeared to have slowed in any correlation to mask use; medical facilities have laid off people due to lack of demand because people were denied medical care for anything else.
At the same time, manufacturers of face masks have made a fortune... anyone treating the Chinese virus has made a fortune (the government pays for all such treatments)... hand sanitzer companies are seeing sales through the roof. Of course, everyone developing a vaccine had a built-in government promise to buy in huge quantities. And of course, governments around the globe have now been endowed with new powers over their constituency.
Maybe you should be looking at who is profiting off all this hysteria.
TheRedneck
You ignored the epidemiological studies which specifically show masks reducing viral infections. And the clinical studies.
From your link:
Bolding mine.
Our results indicate that surgical face masks could prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from symptomatic individuals.
You are claiming asymptomatic spread, not symptomatic spread.
If they trap any aerosols, they must trap viral particles within the aerosols. Nobody claims masks prevent all viral emissions. Exposure to a reduced viral load is associated with reduced chance of contracting Covid and reduced severity of symptoms.
Aerosols are trapped not through simple filtration, but through adherence of moisture droplets to the mask by way of surface tension. Viruses do not exhibit surface tension like water does.
Mask efficiency in restricting free air flow does improve greatly with moisture, due to this same surface tension. In other words, the more efficient a mask is at removing a virus, the less air flow occurs through the mask. And the last part of the quote above is exactly what I have been claiming for some time now: a mask may reduce the chances of transmitting the virus, but for one who already has the virus it will increase their viral load and lead to more severe symptoms.
I do accept that some small attenuation of viral loading in the environment might be realized if everyone with an infection were to wear a mask properly. I simply do not believe the same is true if masks are used improperly, and I recognize the fact that they are frequently not used properly. In addition, any viral particles are not "killed" by the mask; they are simply not released into the environment until the mask is removed. At that time, all of the viral contamination accumulated during the mask's use is released at once. Since masks are not discarded according to medical protocols, that means the contamination of the environment is simply postponed, not reduced.
And this postponement comes at the cost of increasing the mask wearer's chances of higher symptomatic complications.
Yet you conspicuously fail to cite any surgeons attributing extended mask wearing to lack of concentration. As I said, many (including dentists) routinely wear them for much longer without harm to themselves or their patients.
Are you a surgeon? If not, how do you know when they remove their masks?
I am basing my statement on the words of my heart surgeon, cardiologist, and primary care physician (none of which I have ever seen in a face mask... I assume my heart surgeon wore one during the operation, though). I guess they don't know medical techniques or surgery as well as you do, though.
Implying you're a scientist
I implied nothing.
You were unable to quote me saying that because, as I showed you (with quotation), that has never been my stance.
So, let me ask for clarification... are you stating that you believe masks should be worn by people based on medical ability to do so, or based on infection? I'm a bit confused here, because it sounds like you are purposely leaving loopholes for the virus to propagate through. Sort of like trying to stop a waterfall with a tennis net.
That is the crux of my overall argument: since it is not possible for everyone to wear a mask, why is it needed for people without symptoms to wear one and place themselves at greater risk of a symptomatic illness that might require hospitalization? My admission of potential attenuation of viral spread above was predicated specifically on proper and universal mask usage and disposal. Yet, such a requirement is simply not possible, because some people will have medical conditions that prevent face mask wearing (like me), and others will wear and/or dispose of them improperly.
Let me ask you: when you take off a mask, do you place it in a medically approved container that prevents environmental contamination for future incineration, or do you place it in an autoclave immediately? If not, if you throw it in the trash, on the ground, or stuff it in your pocket to use later, you are not properly disposing of the mask.
If somebody believed everyone was infected - sure, they would see no point in anyone wearing masks. But nobody believes that.
So you believe that face masks are needed without regard to stopping potential viral spread? After all, someone who is not infected cannot infect others.
Many infectious diseases (including Covid-19) can be spread before symptoms are apparent, and also by asymptomatic carriers. So it's safest for everyone to take what sensible precautions they can if they don't wish to inadvertently spread it. Rocket science?
More like "racket science."
Please name one time when people were required to wear face masks because of a cold going around. Please name one time the same happened over an influenza virus? Both are known to be contagious, and some influenza viruses can be just as deadly as the Chinese virus. But no one has ever suggested that people all wear face masks because of any other disease than this one.
Why?
Because, as is indicated by the continual spread of the Chinese virus over a year later, masks do nto stop the spread... at best, they slow it a little. That was the reasoning behind the lockdowns as well... "slow the spread," remember? "For two weeks"... to "prevent overloading the medical facilities"? That was over a year ago; the spread hasn't appeared to have slowed in any correlation to mask use; medical facilities have laid off people due to lack of demand because people were denied medical care for anything else.
At the same time, manufacturers of face masks have made a fortune... anyone treating the Chinese virus has made a fortune (the government pays for all such treatments)... hand sanitzer companies are seeing sales through the roof. Of course, everyone developing a vaccine had a built-in government promise to buy in huge quantities. And of course, governments around the globe have now been endowed with new powers over their constituency.
Maybe you should be looking at who is profiting off all this hysteria.
TheRedneck
This is just a typical academic study looking at a narrow topic and timespan.
It is true most people who wear masks wear them because they trust after 100 years of use, and their inclusion in many fields involving aerosol born risks , will transfer to a positive result. Which is perfectly logical.
You add that to the many people motivated to do anything to help not spread the virus. Again it is only logical to attempt to help.
Wearing a mask at the sign of any kind of outbreak is part of 'Best Practice" ..Aka.... In the exact same vain as what to do in a fire, or an earthquake, or how to do CPR etc... It is meant to be an automatic response, in this case to the possibility of infection. Long before any other details are known.
It is a combination of things people do faced with the scenario we were all faced with. A threat with very little information. It is why the excuse " we did not know if it was airborne yet" is a BS cop out.
This Best Practice is tested time and time again ( about 4 times a year ) in areas of the world where outbreaks of pathogens happen and Pandemics are halted due to the local populations knowing what to to. Best Practice is the only thing that has stopped Ebola from getting into Europe. So playing it down only makes people look hugely ignorant and arrogant.
So as far as that is concerned, mask wearers did exactly what they were meant to do. The fact some people, including academics, thought it was a personal decision to debate after 100 years of practical successful use is quite disturbing. I mean sure, debate it, but only after you follow best practice first.
Or it is kind if like saying you are not going to crawl out of a burning building until you can debate it with the fire-brigade when they turn up. Because you can only see smoke but no actual fire.
As for those who refused to wear masks. I have yet to find one who understands the place masks fit into best practice, and what kind of mask is worn by who / where. And forget finding any who can explain why after 100 years of use all of a sudden they stopped working in 2020 just for this virus.
It sounds insane when you say it out loud, because it is insane.
A bit of intellectual honesty would go a long way to understand their behavior.
Because what I do know, is they all seemed to start with a comment about no-one telling them what to do, right at the beginning of all of this. And when questioned on their morals / ethics , they spent considerable time looking for any information that would back up their decision.
Their decision was NOT based on science. They had already made up their mind and publicly stated it. Quite important to get that in the right order.
And what about all the religious nutters who refused to wear a mask because they did not believe in germ theory. I would not call them more scientifically minded. Quite the opposite.
As for relying on good motives. Remember most of these people spread the lie that masks would harm or kill you. That is now just a fact, they scare mongered and turned to pure dishonesty to justify their position. Hard to live that down. I know I would rather be accused of being a follower than being a proven liar.
At the end of the day, if anyone wants to trust academics and researchers who seem to change their mind like their underpants. Then good on you. As I work in a field that exposes me to dangerous Pathogens often. And have been in situations where they have a long history of saving lungs and life. I would rather just follow a century of success and at least attempt to save other a horrible death, disability or grief.
It is true most people who wear masks wear them because they trust after 100 years of use, and their inclusion in many fields involving aerosol born risks , will transfer to a positive result. Which is perfectly logical.
You add that to the many people motivated to do anything to help not spread the virus. Again it is only logical to attempt to help.
Wearing a mask at the sign of any kind of outbreak is part of 'Best Practice" ..Aka.... In the exact same vain as what to do in a fire, or an earthquake, or how to do CPR etc... It is meant to be an automatic response, in this case to the possibility of infection. Long before any other details are known.
It is a combination of things people do faced with the scenario we were all faced with. A threat with very little information. It is why the excuse " we did not know if it was airborne yet" is a BS cop out.
This Best Practice is tested time and time again ( about 4 times a year ) in areas of the world where outbreaks of pathogens happen and Pandemics are halted due to the local populations knowing what to to. Best Practice is the only thing that has stopped Ebola from getting into Europe. So playing it down only makes people look hugely ignorant and arrogant.
So as far as that is concerned, mask wearers did exactly what they were meant to do. The fact some people, including academics, thought it was a personal decision to debate after 100 years of practical successful use is quite disturbing. I mean sure, debate it, but only after you follow best practice first.
Or it is kind if like saying you are not going to crawl out of a burning building until you can debate it with the fire-brigade when they turn up. Because you can only see smoke but no actual fire.
As for those who refused to wear masks. I have yet to find one who understands the place masks fit into best practice, and what kind of mask is worn by who / where. And forget finding any who can explain why after 100 years of use all of a sudden they stopped working in 2020 just for this virus.
It sounds insane when you say it out loud, because it is insane.
A bit of intellectual honesty would go a long way to understand their behavior.
Because what I do know, is they all seemed to start with a comment about no-one telling them what to do, right at the beginning of all of this. And when questioned on their morals / ethics , they spent considerable time looking for any information that would back up their decision.
Their decision was NOT based on science. They had already made up their mind and publicly stated it. Quite important to get that in the right order.
And what about all the religious nutters who refused to wear a mask because they did not believe in germ theory. I would not call them more scientifically minded. Quite the opposite.
As for relying on good motives. Remember most of these people spread the lie that masks would harm or kill you. That is now just a fact, they scare mongered and turned to pure dishonesty to justify their position. Hard to live that down. I know I would rather be accused of being a follower than being a proven liar.
At the end of the day, if anyone wants to trust academics and researchers who seem to change their mind like their underpants. Then good on you. As I work in a field that exposes me to dangerous Pathogens often. And have been in situations where they have a long history of saving lungs and life. I would rather just follow a century of success and at least attempt to save other a horrible death, disability or grief.
4 decades of mortuary work. Dealing with infectious cases and wearing masks while I do full PM cases. So easily 6 hours with no break and certainly
not touching or replacing our masks. ( because the mortuary is considered saturated ) and I have never heard so much double dutch from someone.
Are you trying to convince yourself or someone else you know what you are talking about ?
Are you trying to convince yourself or someone else you know what you are talking about ?
This is what full disclosure about mask wearing looks like.
Should I wear a mask........?
For a start the conversation or debate should not just be had " should we wear a mask " without discussing the different reasons you do. And I always find those who do not discuss the topic in full, seem to have ideology driving their debates. Not full disclosure facts / science / history.
And all masks should be either changed or washed / sterilized often. So the argument you hear about them health causing issues is from improper use. Not use. Again anyone not disclosing that upfront, is being dodgy.
(1) In a clinical setting, close contact with known cases, environment saturation positive, in which case a N95 etc... is advised..
Important point: This is the only areas that has conflicting results we read about.. And the debate is not if they work, it is how well do they work. What % over time etc....Not a single test has been a failure. But if you have someone looking for 100% protection, anything less becomes "debatable "
So be careful of academic debates about how useful masks are. You are entering geeksville. For the layperson out in the public, it is just a distraction.
(2) Just to stop you spitting or coughing on someone else. Almost any mask will do this.( yes even just a homemade cloth mask ) .....But by itself people tend to take about a week to adjust to wearing them and stop touching them all the time. Which reduces their effectiveness. But after the adjustment period, they become more effective.
(3) Cloth mask and working rubber gloves...
To stop you from spitting on surfaces and people, And to get you out of the habit of touching you mouth and nose with your hands etc...... which is the primary way to infect yourself and others.
If anyone wants to discuss the topic about masks in general, they should at least clarify the intended goal for wearing a mask. If anyone says they are "useless" because they read.... blah blah..." that is the kind of thing someone say who had already decided to not wear a mask from the beginning, and are scouring the internet for any piece if info that backs up that decision. .
The fact is they just do not care if they spread it around and cause suffering or death of others. They just lack the conviction to say that out loud.
Very Important Point for the debate.......
In the 30s when masks started being used in hospitals ( the old green cloth ones. Not considered that good for much nowadays . But the Nurses Union had been advising this since 1915) infection rates dropped 90%. This pattern continued in every single place that implemented them, every setting, clinical or public, in every country, be it the U.S. or Russia or Africa. Not a single case of them being useless .... making some "experts" "who did not believe in them", shut up real fast........( they never apologized though. Funny that )
Also none of the "dangers" of wearing them have been recorded before. And none being recorded as "useless". Even though worn by millions of people every day for decades. So just remember that next time you see a comment suggesting otherwise.
So 90 years of global use and real world results should trump anyone's "opinion" now.
P.S. As a mortician, after 40 years of not getting a single infection from the tens of thousands of cases I have done. Some with extremely dangerous infections, I would also hope that counts for something of evidence. Good luck only lasts so long, after that it is good management.
At the end of all of this, when the full extent of the damage is known. Deaths, disabilities etc..... there will be a lot of people you will know who will be guilty of spreading scaremongering misinformation. Unfortunately for them it will be undeniable and no longer a debate. Most will go into denial mode and still want to debate it, but peoples tolerance for BS is
In fact the only good thing about this disaster, is certain types of people will be left exposed and no-one will believe another thing they say again. Because most published their lies for all to see.
We will now know how far they will go to push an agenda. Which will obviously be far enough to kill another person, or leave them disabled for life. Sounds dramatic, but that is the reality of misinformation during a deadly Pandemic. It was not a game like some treated it.
As part of a group of 33,000 + morticians globally who have been communicating about this topic since day one. And seen the damage up close and personal. For us it was never a game, but like a lot of people actually involved in the crisis, we had to watch and read what can only be described as sociopathic ramblings, with zero regard to the suffering they might cause.
I can honestly say it is the first time in my life I prayed Karma is a real thing.
Should I wear a mask........?
For a start the conversation or debate should not just be had " should we wear a mask " without discussing the different reasons you do. And I always find those who do not discuss the topic in full, seem to have ideology driving their debates. Not full disclosure facts / science / history.
And all masks should be either changed or washed / sterilized often. So the argument you hear about them health causing issues is from improper use. Not use. Again anyone not disclosing that upfront, is being dodgy.
(1) In a clinical setting, close contact with known cases, environment saturation positive, in which case a N95 etc... is advised..
Important point: This is the only areas that has conflicting results we read about.. And the debate is not if they work, it is how well do they work. What % over time etc....Not a single test has been a failure. But if you have someone looking for 100% protection, anything less becomes "debatable "
So be careful of academic debates about how useful masks are. You are entering geeksville. For the layperson out in the public, it is just a distraction.
(2) Just to stop you spitting or coughing on someone else. Almost any mask will do this.( yes even just a homemade cloth mask ) .....But by itself people tend to take about a week to adjust to wearing them and stop touching them all the time. Which reduces their effectiveness. But after the adjustment period, they become more effective.
(3) Cloth mask and working rubber gloves...
To stop you from spitting on surfaces and people, And to get you out of the habit of touching you mouth and nose with your hands etc...... which is the primary way to infect yourself and others.
If anyone wants to discuss the topic about masks in general, they should at least clarify the intended goal for wearing a mask. If anyone says they are "useless" because they read.... blah blah..." that is the kind of thing someone say who had already decided to not wear a mask from the beginning, and are scouring the internet for any piece if info that backs up that decision. .
The fact is they just do not care if they spread it around and cause suffering or death of others. They just lack the conviction to say that out loud.
Very Important Point for the debate.......
In the 30s when masks started being used in hospitals ( the old green cloth ones. Not considered that good for much nowadays . But the Nurses Union had been advising this since 1915) infection rates dropped 90%. This pattern continued in every single place that implemented them, every setting, clinical or public, in every country, be it the U.S. or Russia or Africa. Not a single case of them being useless .... making some "experts" "who did not believe in them", shut up real fast........( they never apologized though. Funny that )
Also none of the "dangers" of wearing them have been recorded before. And none being recorded as "useless". Even though worn by millions of people every day for decades. So just remember that next time you see a comment suggesting otherwise.
So 90 years of global use and real world results should trump anyone's "opinion" now.
P.S. As a mortician, after 40 years of not getting a single infection from the tens of thousands of cases I have done. Some with extremely dangerous infections, I would also hope that counts for something of evidence. Good luck only lasts so long, after that it is good management.
At the end of all of this, when the full extent of the damage is known. Deaths, disabilities etc..... there will be a lot of people you will know who will be guilty of spreading scaremongering misinformation. Unfortunately for them it will be undeniable and no longer a debate. Most will go into denial mode and still want to debate it, but peoples tolerance for BS is
In fact the only good thing about this disaster, is certain types of people will be left exposed and no-one will believe another thing they say again. Because most published their lies for all to see.
We will now know how far they will go to push an agenda. Which will obviously be far enough to kill another person, or leave them disabled for life. Sounds dramatic, but that is the reality of misinformation during a deadly Pandemic. It was not a game like some treated it.
As part of a group of 33,000 + morticians globally who have been communicating about this topic since day one. And seen the damage up close and personal. For us it was never a game, but like a lot of people actually involved in the crisis, we had to watch and read what can only be described as sociopathic ramblings, with zero regard to the suffering they might cause.
I can honestly say it is the first time in my life I prayed Karma is a real thing.
I'm happy knowing that I have certain rights, freedoms and privacies, and some of those are to breath freely and unrestricted, make my own health
decisions, and to have privacy doing so.
I'm especially happy that I never restriced my breathing unnecessarily, or otherwise fell for the psychological operation of mask wearing in public. Some people are going to be dealing with the psychological effects of this for years to come.
Some people prefer natural immunity and healthy lifestyles to experimental gene therapy "vaccines".
Some of us think that the development of genetically engineered deadly viruses should be outlawed, otherwise we are doomed to be attacked by future man-made deadly viruses, of which big pharma will continue to poison people for profit.
I'm greatful to have not gotten very sick or had anyone around me get very sick these last 18 months or so.
I'm sad that my grandmother passed away after becoming depressed from the visitations and smiles going away. She didn't die of covid, she died because she was so sad that she stopped eating.
Covid19 is multi-faceted softwarfare.
Biological due to the virus
Psychological due to safety measures like mask wearing, social distancing, and lockdowns.
Economical due to lockdowns and government restrictions.
US states most sympathetic to socialist and communist seem to have the toughest restrictions.
Both the US government and the mainstream media seem to be complacent to these attacks often using the extra authoritarianism and control of popular opinion and perception to their advantage and our disadvantage.
I'm especially happy that I never restriced my breathing unnecessarily, or otherwise fell for the psychological operation of mask wearing in public. Some people are going to be dealing with the psychological effects of this for years to come.
Some people prefer natural immunity and healthy lifestyles to experimental gene therapy "vaccines".
Some of us think that the development of genetically engineered deadly viruses should be outlawed, otherwise we are doomed to be attacked by future man-made deadly viruses, of which big pharma will continue to poison people for profit.
I'm greatful to have not gotten very sick or had anyone around me get very sick these last 18 months or so.
I'm sad that my grandmother passed away after becoming depressed from the visitations and smiles going away. She didn't die of covid, she died because she was so sad that she stopped eating.
Covid19 is multi-faceted softwarfare.
Biological due to the virus
Psychological due to safety measures like mask wearing, social distancing, and lockdowns.
Economical due to lockdowns and government restrictions.
US states most sympathetic to socialist and communist seem to have the toughest restrictions.
Both the US government and the mainstream media seem to be complacent to these attacks often using the extra authoritarianism and control of popular opinion and perception to their advantage and our disadvantage.
originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
Question - If a State Lifts it's Illegal Mask Mandate , then Why would anyone in that State STILL Wear a Mask in Public ?
Answer - Because the State and MSM have Conditioned them to Continue to FEAR being Exposed to Covid-19 .
Maybe, maybe not, they may be using it as a precaution not to infect other people, as the masks are supposed to work better at protecting the others than the mask wearer.
Or they have noticed during this time that a mask protects them from pollen or dust or whatever they are allergic to, and they keep on using because they feel better that way.
a reply to: thedeadtruth
You sound more like a PR agent or propagandist, than you do a mortician.
What was it you said years ago about wanting to control other people for their own good? That you thought most people were so stupid they would get themselves killed in a matter of years. You may want to revisit your core view of reality and start respecting other people's sovereignty.
If you would wish death on those that don't follow your wishes, I could also careless for you.
You sound more like a PR agent or propagandist, than you do a mortician.
What was it you said years ago about wanting to control other people for their own good? That you thought most people were so stupid they would get themselves killed in a matter of years. You may want to revisit your core view of reality and start respecting other people's sovereignty.
If you would wish death on those that don't follow your wishes, I could also careless for you.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: IndieA
US states most sympathetic to socialist and communist seem to have the toughest restrictions.
...and the most problem with controlling the virus...
TheRedneck
Probably because everyone is so unhealthy from mask wearing and lockdowns, and also because those states are more likely to scare people, lie, or exaggerate facts and results, while over testing people with a test that has a high rate of false positives.
edit on 10-6-2021 by IndieA
because: reworded
originally posted by: TheRedneck
You are claiming asymptomatic spread, not symptomatic spread.
The evolutionary advantage of spreading from individuals before they're laid low, and before they know they have it, is obvious. Spreaders who remain asymptomatic are Covid's best friend.
Huge epidemiological study: SARS-CoV-2 transmission risk from asymptomatic carriers: Results from a mass screening programme in Luxembourg The Lancet, Feb 2021
Our data show that asymptomatic carriers infect on average the same number of people as symptomatic individuals.
Meta analysis of 8 Chinese studies:
Sa4s-Cov-2 Transmission from People Without Covid-19 Symptoms JAMA, Jan 2021
In this base case, 59% of all transmission came from asymptomatic transmission, comprising 35% from presymptomatic individuals and 24% from individuals who never develop symptoms. Under a broad range of values for each of these assumptions, at least 59% of SARS-CoV-2 infections was estimated to have originated from individuals with infection but without symptoms.
Could asymptomatic carriers spread the SARS-CoV-2 infection? Experience from the Italian second wave Journal of Translational Medicine, March, 2021
This small CDC cluster study found little to no infection from asymptomatic case-patients, but greater presymptomatic transmission than symptomatic transmission (75%).
originally posted by: TheRedneck
Are you a surgeon? If not, how do you know when they remove their masks?
As I said, medical family: an orthopaedic and two dental surgeons, a professor of Diagnostic Radiology, two GPs, and my brother a consultant anaesthetist whose working life is in the operating theatre.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
I am basing my statement on the words of my heart surgeon, cardiologist, and primary care physician (none of which I have ever seen in a face mask... I assume my heart surgeon wore one during the operation, though).
So your statement, "surgeons rarely wear a mask more than two hours at a time, as longer use can and has led to reports of a difficulty in concentration" was based upon the words of your heart surgeon who you assume wore a mask when operating on you? Can you see the problem there?
originally posted by: TheRedneck
I implied nothing.
You said, "I'm not going to argue terminology with a layman" when I baulked at your statement "correlation must be causal in nature ". So you are a layman but you're not going to argue with another layman?
originally posted by: TheRedneck
So, let me ask for clarification... are you stating that you believe masks should be worn by people based on medical ability to do so...
Exactly!
originally posted by: TheRedneck
...or based on infection?
No... If you know you're infected, it would be irresponsible to be in public, with or without a mask. You would self isolate.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
That is the crux of my overall argument: since it is not possible for everyone to wear a mask, why is it needed for people without symptoms to wear one and place themselves at greater risk of a symptomatic illness that might require hospitalization?
Because if they are presymptomatic or asymptomatic they will spread the disease.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
My admission of potential attenuation of viral spread above was predicated specifically on proper and universal mask usage and disposal. Yet, such a requirement is simply not possible, because some people will have medical conditions that prevent face mask wearing (like me), and others will wear and/or dispose of them improperly.
Because a few people are unable to take a measure to reduce infections it does not follow that all people should abandon that measure.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
Let me ask you: when you take off a mask, do you place it in a medically approved container that prevents environmental contamination for future incineration, or do you place it in an autoclave immediately? If not, if you throw it in the trash, on the ground, or stuff it in your pocket to use later, you are not properly disposing of the mask.
It goes in a pocket until I get home, when it goes in the washing machine. Given what we know about how fragile the virus is ex vivo, I suspect leaving the mask in sunlight for a few hours might disinfect it.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
Please name one time when people were required to wear face masks because of a cold going around. Please name one time the same happened over an influenza virus? Both are known to be contagious, and some influenza viruses can be just as deadly as the Chinese virus.
I don't personally know anyone who died of flu or the common cold. I know several who have died of COVID-19 and several others suffering serious and long term illness from it. Many hospitals have been, and many still are, overwhelmed with sick and dying Covid-19 patients.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
But no one has ever suggested that people all wear face masks because of any other disease than this one.
Are you saying therefore nobody should, even though it saves lives? The use of surgical masks was made mandatory at Bangkok Airport during the SARS-CoV-1 outbreak.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
At the same time, manufacturers of face masks have made a fortune....
So has Jeff Bezos. It's galling but irrelevant.
edit on 10-6-2021 by EvilAxis because: (no reason given)
a reply to: EvilAxis
Spoken like a true hypochondriac.
Severity of symptoms generally mirrors amount of infection. Amount of infection has a direct connection to amount of virus expelled. Therefore, it can be safely presumed that the lower the amount of symptoms, the lower the amount of spread infection. Indeed, there are studies that show those who are asymptomatic do not spread the virus as much as those who have severe symptoms.
Normally I would post a link and excerpt... but in this case I see that you have already made up your mind so I won't waste that time. If you actually do have any curiosity about the veracity of your statements, it shouldn't be hard to find. I believe it came from the CDC.
As for your links... come on. You don't get to just toss out link after link after link hoping one will say what you want it to. If you want to support your position with links, fine, but make the first one your anchor. Your first shot failed... not gonna waste my time going through each one to show you where you're wrong.
No, actually I can't. I consider the fact that I have to assume he wore a mask during surgery a blessing.
During one of my cath surgeries, I still have a memory of that damn thing moving through my right arm. Apparently someone went a little light on the Fentanyl that day. In any case, it is certainly NOT a pleasant memory... as a matter of fact, if I could figure out where it were stored, I would likely agree to a partial lobotomy to remove it.
During my open heart surgery, I don't remember a damn thing, a situation I consider a blessing. I do believe standard procedure is to ensure the patient is out like a busted lightbulb before stopping their heart, slicing through the front of their chest with a circle saw, opening the rib cage up enough so that I woke up with three broken ribs, removing my heart, sewing on 5 new sections of blood vessel, then putting everything back, tying my chestbone back with zip-ties, and sewing me up like a worn-out quilt (please let me know if your relatives disagree with that procedure so I can thank my surgeon again). I didn't want to be awake for that, and I certainly wasn't in any condition to struggle back from literal death just to check to see if the guy putting me back together wore a face mask.
Heck, as it was, waking up to all those Borg implants still in me after the operation was enough of an experience in "what the FREAK?".
Whether I know he had a mask on or not takes a back seat to the fact that he managed to put back together an arterial system that was clogged up from years of trying to pump something close to the consistency of Jello. I am still alive... a good bit worse in some areas, better in others, but alive enough to come on here and point out your paranoia over a bad cold. That's what's important to me.
I think my meaning was quite clear. The horse is dead; you can quit beating it now.
I will actually agree with that. Social distancing seems to be the key to preventing transmission, at least in the amounts needed for this disease to become serious. It is the one thing that has worked.
However, I have known several people who found out they tested positive and their immediate response was to go shopping! Why? Because the mandated lockdowns meant they could not leave their house for two weeks, so they had to get enough supplies to last that long and wanted to do so before symptoms appeared. Their alternative was to starve until their two weeks were up.
That's the problem with mandates... if one allows people to act in the best interests of everyone, and simply provides them with the needed information to do so, most will follow recommendations. Introduce a mandate, and people are more concerned with making sure they can survive in the face of it.
Incidentally, this debate started with my statement that mask use for the general public is a relatively new concept... but social distancing has been practiced since long before I was born. It really is common sense... if you're bad sick, stay home (or at least get to medical attention). If you're not sick but know you have or have recently had a sickness, minimize going out to necessities and maintain a healthy distance from others. You know, someone starts to get close and you simply say "Please be careful... I just got over a flu."
The human race, speaking of evolution, has survived and thrived to the point of conquering every area on the damn planet by doing that... not by wearing masks.
Which assumes they are infected but asymptomatic. My point.
That's not what we are talking about. I have never made the statement "no one should wear a mask in public." That was Dr. Anthony Fauci who said that, not me.
My argument is against the attempts to force mask use on others, whether by legal means or by social pressure.
That's some face mask you got there!
So if you have viral particles on your mask, you can wash it in a washing machine or put it in the sun for a little while and the virus will be no more. But if not on your super-duper face mask, the virus can survive in bright sunlight?
Do you not see how contradictory that is? If it is so fragile that it is no problem on a face mask, it is also so fragile that it will be neutralized almost instantly under sunlight. Therefore the masks are doing nothing except keeping it alive longer in your pocket.
My condolences. I never claimed it could not be deadly; there are now a variety of effective treatments for the Chinese virus, though.
I know of no hospitals in the US which have been overwhelmed. In this case, I will entertain a link... if said link is germane to your argument.
>> continued >>
The evolutionary advantage of spreading from individuals before they're laid low, and before they know they have it, is obvious. Spreaders who remain asymptomatic are Covid's best friend.
Spoken like a true hypochondriac.
Severity of symptoms generally mirrors amount of infection. Amount of infection has a direct connection to amount of virus expelled. Therefore, it can be safely presumed that the lower the amount of symptoms, the lower the amount of spread infection. Indeed, there are studies that show those who are asymptomatic do not spread the virus as much as those who have severe symptoms.
Normally I would post a link and excerpt... but in this case I see that you have already made up your mind so I won't waste that time. If you actually do have any curiosity about the veracity of your statements, it shouldn't be hard to find. I believe it came from the CDC.
As for your links... come on. You don't get to just toss out link after link after link hoping one will say what you want it to. If you want to support your position with links, fine, but make the first one your anchor. Your first shot failed... not gonna waste my time going through each one to show you where you're wrong.
So your statement, "surgeons rarely wear a mask more than two hours at a time, as longer use can and has led to reports of a difficulty in concentration" was based upon the words of your heart surgeon who you assume wore a mask when operating on you? Can you see the problem there?
No, actually I can't. I consider the fact that I have to assume he wore a mask during surgery a blessing.
During one of my cath surgeries, I still have a memory of that damn thing moving through my right arm. Apparently someone went a little light on the Fentanyl that day. In any case, it is certainly NOT a pleasant memory... as a matter of fact, if I could figure out where it were stored, I would likely agree to a partial lobotomy to remove it.
During my open heart surgery, I don't remember a damn thing, a situation I consider a blessing. I do believe standard procedure is to ensure the patient is out like a busted lightbulb before stopping their heart, slicing through the front of their chest with a circle saw, opening the rib cage up enough so that I woke up with three broken ribs, removing my heart, sewing on 5 new sections of blood vessel, then putting everything back, tying my chestbone back with zip-ties, and sewing me up like a worn-out quilt (please let me know if your relatives disagree with that procedure so I can thank my surgeon again). I didn't want to be awake for that, and I certainly wasn't in any condition to struggle back from literal death just to check to see if the guy putting me back together wore a face mask.
Heck, as it was, waking up to all those Borg implants still in me after the operation was enough of an experience in "what the FREAK?".
Whether I know he had a mask on or not takes a back seat to the fact that he managed to put back together an arterial system that was clogged up from years of trying to pump something close to the consistency of Jello. I am still alive... a good bit worse in some areas, better in others, but alive enough to come on here and point out your paranoia over a bad cold. That's what's important to me.
You said, "I'm not going to argue terminology with a layman" when I baulked at your statement "correlation must be causal in nature ". So you are a layman but you're not going to argue with another layman?
I think my meaning was quite clear. The horse is dead; you can quit beating it now.
If you know you're infected, it would be irresponsible to be in public, with or without a mask. You would self isolate.
I will actually agree with that. Social distancing seems to be the key to preventing transmission, at least in the amounts needed for this disease to become serious. It is the one thing that has worked.
However, I have known several people who found out they tested positive and their immediate response was to go shopping! Why? Because the mandated lockdowns meant they could not leave their house for two weeks, so they had to get enough supplies to last that long and wanted to do so before symptoms appeared. Their alternative was to starve until their two weeks were up.
That's the problem with mandates... if one allows people to act in the best interests of everyone, and simply provides them with the needed information to do so, most will follow recommendations. Introduce a mandate, and people are more concerned with making sure they can survive in the face of it.
Incidentally, this debate started with my statement that mask use for the general public is a relatively new concept... but social distancing has been practiced since long before I was born. It really is common sense... if you're bad sick, stay home (or at least get to medical attention). If you're not sick but know you have or have recently had a sickness, minimize going out to necessities and maintain a healthy distance from others. You know, someone starts to get close and you simply say "Please be careful... I just got over a flu."
The human race, speaking of evolution, has survived and thrived to the point of conquering every area on the damn planet by doing that... not by wearing masks.
Because if they are presymptomatic or asymptomatic they will spread the disease.
Which assumes they are infected but asymptomatic. My point.
Because a few people are unable to take a measure to reduce infections it does not follow that all people should abandon that measure.
That's not what we are talking about. I have never made the statement "no one should wear a mask in public." That was Dr. Anthony Fauci who said that, not me.
My argument is against the attempts to force mask use on others, whether by legal means or by social pressure.
It goes in a pocket until I get home, when it goes in the washing machine. Given what we know about how fragile the virus is ex vivo, I suspect leaving the mask in sunlight for a few hours might disinfect it.
That's some face mask you got there!
So if you have viral particles on your mask, you can wash it in a washing machine or put it in the sun for a little while and the virus will be no more. But if not on your super-duper face mask, the virus can survive in bright sunlight?
Do you not see how contradictory that is? If it is so fragile that it is no problem on a face mask, it is also so fragile that it will be neutralized almost instantly under sunlight. Therefore the masks are doing nothing except keeping it alive longer in your pocket.
I don't personally know anyone who died of flu or the common cold. I know several who have died of COVID-19 and several others suffering serious and long term illness from it. Many hospitals have been, and many still are, overwhelmed with sick and dying Covid-19 patients.
My condolences. I never claimed it could not be deadly; there are now a variety of effective treatments for the Chinese virus, though.
I know of no hospitals in the US which have been overwhelmed. In this case, I will entertain a link... if said link is germane to your argument.
>> continued >>
>> continued >>
As I stated above, proper public education on how to recognize the virus and stop its transmission in public are a good thing. Mandates and laws and social pressuring through misinformation are not good things.
If we were talking about something like Ebola, which is near 100% fatal, I could perhaps agree with your position. However, we are not talking about Ebola. We're talking about a disease which has killed only somewhat more this past year than the traditional flu season normally kills. The survival rate, even before death numbers from the Chinese virus are adjusted down as they are being now, is over 99%. I do not consider that sufficient cause to destroy an economy and put others at health risk, much less discriminate against those with a medical condition. Yet, that is what is being done.
There is a difference between common-sense precautions and heavy-handed authoritarianism. I support common sense precautions. I will never support heavy-handed authoritarianism. This virus should have been isolated and tracked with common-sense precautions against infection from the beginning. As more was known, the public should have been informed. That's not what happened. It was advertised as a potential ELE at first, but no common sense precautions were taken... we were all told not to panic, that all was well. Then panic started setting in and our government, with compliance from the MSM, decided it was time for everyone to panic. Death numbers were skewed so badly we will likely never know the actual death toll, because the government made it profitable for hospitals to declare the Chinese virus as the cause of death. States locked down tight, even where there were almost no cases, while a few states were busy murdering seniors in assisted living by intentionally introducing the virus to them. Even in Alabama, the mandatory lockdown had to be amended when the first spring storm appeared; it literally forbad people to abandon their home to escape a tornado and made community tornado shelters illegal!
Many treatments were developed, some which likely worked, and some which likely didn't. All were dismissed out of hand; those which actually had support from doctors treating the disease were subjected to skewed "verification" which was then used to show them as potentially deadly, some in the face of decades of use for other diseases. Some were simply hidden and ignored into obscurity. A few were so persistent that some doctors were completely discredited for nothing more than attempting to find an effective treatment.
Yes, there is a virus which some refer to as "COVID-19" (and which I refer to as the Chinese virus). Yes, it can be serious. Yes, it is highly contagious. But no, it is not a death sentence like Ebola, nor will it wipe out the population if left to its malicious ways. It is a virus, like other viruses before, less deadly than most, but still enough to take seriously. No, it does not/did not require that we destroy our economy. No, it is not sufficiently dangerous to require face masks in public. No, it is not lying in wait for you.
But worse of all, we will probably never know, at least in our lifetime, how to handle this virus. After a year and a half, we are only now starting to approach this thing using science instead of politics. That tells me that everything done up until now is likely politically motivated, not medically motivated.
Since when has following the money been irrelevant? Did I change universes?
If you want to know if something is true, look at what people who make money off it are saying, then look at what people who have been harmed by it say.
TheRedneck
Are you saying therefore nobody should, even though it saves lives? The use of surgical masks was made mandatory at Bangkok Airport during the SARS-CoV-1 outbreak.
As I stated above, proper public education on how to recognize the virus and stop its transmission in public are a good thing. Mandates and laws and social pressuring through misinformation are not good things.
If we were talking about something like Ebola, which is near 100% fatal, I could perhaps agree with your position. However, we are not talking about Ebola. We're talking about a disease which has killed only somewhat more this past year than the traditional flu season normally kills. The survival rate, even before death numbers from the Chinese virus are adjusted down as they are being now, is over 99%. I do not consider that sufficient cause to destroy an economy and put others at health risk, much less discriminate against those with a medical condition. Yet, that is what is being done.
There is a difference between common-sense precautions and heavy-handed authoritarianism. I support common sense precautions. I will never support heavy-handed authoritarianism. This virus should have been isolated and tracked with common-sense precautions against infection from the beginning. As more was known, the public should have been informed. That's not what happened. It was advertised as a potential ELE at first, but no common sense precautions were taken... we were all told not to panic, that all was well. Then panic started setting in and our government, with compliance from the MSM, decided it was time for everyone to panic. Death numbers were skewed so badly we will likely never know the actual death toll, because the government made it profitable for hospitals to declare the Chinese virus as the cause of death. States locked down tight, even where there were almost no cases, while a few states were busy murdering seniors in assisted living by intentionally introducing the virus to them. Even in Alabama, the mandatory lockdown had to be amended when the first spring storm appeared; it literally forbad people to abandon their home to escape a tornado and made community tornado shelters illegal!
Many treatments were developed, some which likely worked, and some which likely didn't. All were dismissed out of hand; those which actually had support from doctors treating the disease were subjected to skewed "verification" which was then used to show them as potentially deadly, some in the face of decades of use for other diseases. Some were simply hidden and ignored into obscurity. A few were so persistent that some doctors were completely discredited for nothing more than attempting to find an effective treatment.
Yes, there is a virus which some refer to as "COVID-19" (and which I refer to as the Chinese virus). Yes, it can be serious. Yes, it is highly contagious. But no, it is not a death sentence like Ebola, nor will it wipe out the population if left to its malicious ways. It is a virus, like other viruses before, less deadly than most, but still enough to take seriously. No, it does not/did not require that we destroy our economy. No, it is not sufficiently dangerous to require face masks in public. No, it is not lying in wait for you.
But worse of all, we will probably never know, at least in our lifetime, how to handle this virus. After a year and a half, we are only now starting to approach this thing using science instead of politics. That tells me that everything done up until now is likely politically motivated, not medically motivated.
So has Jeff Bezos. It's galling but irrelevant.
Since when has following the money been irrelevant? Did I change universes?
If you want to know if something is true, look at what people who make money off it are saying, then look at what people who have been harmed by it say.
TheRedneck
originally posted by: TheRedneck
Normally I would post a link and excerpt... but in this case I see that you have already made up your mind so I won't waste that time. If you actually do have any curiosity about the veracity of your statements, it shouldn't be hard to find. I believe it came from the CDC.
A link to that CDC study was in my last post, because I didn't want to cherry-pick the data. As I pointed out, it found greater presymptomatic transmission than symptomatic transmission (75%).
originally posted by: TheRedneck
Whether I know he had a mask on or not takes a back seat...
That wasn't my question. You said, "surgeons rarely wear a mask more than two hours at a time, as longer use can and has led to reports of a difficulty in concentration." You again failed to cite those reports.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
I think my meaning was quite clear.
It was, even though you denied that’s what you meant.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
Incidentally, this debate started with my statement that mask use for the general public is a relatively new concept... but social distancing has been practiced since long before I was born.
Even that statement was incorrect. Mask-wearing ordinances were around long before you were born, for example, during the 1918 flu pandemic (mostly In western states). Japan has an even longer history of mask wearing, primarily to prevent spreading one’s own germs or sickness in public places.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
The human race, speaking of evolution, has survived and thrived to the point of conquering every area on the damn planet by doing that... by not wearing masks.
The survival of the human race is not threatened. The wellbeing of individuals is.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
Do you not see how contradictory that is? If it is so fragile that it is no problem on a face mask, it is also so fragile that it will be neutralized almost instantly under sunlight.
Like other coronaviruses, it is not 'neutralized almost instantly under sunlight'. Rather, as I said, it doesn't survive long outside the body in bright sunlight.
Exploring the vulnerability of coronavirus to sunlight Journal of Infectious Diseases, March 2021
...experiments demonstrated virus inactivation times of about 10-20 minutes.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
I know of no hospitals in the US which have been overwhelmed.
Only because you're determined not to know.
'Tired to the bone’: Hospitals overwhelmed with virus cases AP, November 19, 2020
Overwhelmed hospitals are converting chapels, cafeterias, waiting rooms, hallways, even a parking garage into patient treatment areas. Staff members are desperately calling around to other medical centers in search of open beds. Fatigue and frustration are setting in among front-line workers.
Conditions inside the nation’s hospitals are deteriorating by the day as the coronavirus rages across the U.S. at an unrelenting pace and the confirmed death toll surpasses 250,000.
“We are depressed, disheartened and tired to the bone,” said Alison Johnson, director of critical care at Johnson City Medical Center in Tennessee, adding that she drives to and from work some days in tears.
COVID-Overwhelmed Hospitals Strain Staff and Hope to Avoid Rationing Care Scientific American, Jan 2021
In Birmingham, Ala., Kierstin Kennedy says, “in some ways, it feels like you’re in a war zone or a Third World country.” Kennedy is chief of hospital medicine at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Hospital, where 98 percent of ICU beds are filled with COVID patients. “Things are stretched so thin,” she adds. At these facilities and many other hospitals across the country right now, patients are not getting the care that doctors and nurses want to provide because the current COVID surge means staffers are stretched among more and sicker patients. As of January 25, California’s ICUs were at an average of 90 percent occupancy for the entire state. In Texas, the average was 92 percent. In Alabama, it was 95 percent.
Many hospitals beyond the US are currently at breaking point.
Mindanao hospital runs out of COVID beds June 12, 2021
Chile's Capital Moves to Full Lockdown with Hospitals Overwhelmed 10th June, 2021
originally posted by: TheRedneck
We're talking about a disease which has killed only somewhat more this past year than the traditional flu season normally kills.
The last flu pandemic was 2009
2009 H1N1 Influenza killed about 284,000 worldwide in the first 12 months of 2009
Covid-19 killed about 2,000,000 in the first 12 months of 2020
H1N1 Influenza vs. COVID-19: Pandemic Comparison Healthline
Far fewer are hospitalized by flu, but of those that are:
The Lancet
We found that the in-hospital mortality for COVID-19 was nearly three-times higher than for seasonal influenza, with an age-standardised mortality ratio of 2·82. In addition, patients with COVID-19 were twice as likely to receive invasive mechanical ventilation, and COVID-19 patients hospitalised in the ICU stayed nearly twice as long as those with influenza. Of note, the 2018–19 period had the highest case-fatality rate for seasonal influenza in France within the past 5 years (12 300 deaths, including 8100 directly attributable to influenza).13 Therefore, the excess mortality observed for COVID-19 was not the result of an influenza season that was less severe than usual.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
The survival rate, even before death numbers from the Chinese virus are adjusted down as they are being now...
They're mostly being adjusted up. Total deaths due to COVID-19 underestimated by 20 percent in U.S. counties, study finds ScienceDaily, May 2021
edit on 11-6-2021 by EvilAxis because: (no reason given)
a reply to: EvilAxis
Those reports are all anecdotal. My information is anecdotal. However, it was relayed to me by an actual surgeon, not someone on the Internet. If you want to call him a liar, go right ahead. I'm sure you know more than he does.
Maybe you could have done a better job on my heart?
Actually, it was in a few cities, and was just as controversial as it is today. In comparison, social distancing by the infected has been used every year I can remember since birth, without a single government requirement.
Japan is also the most crowded country on the planet, and their history is one of a willingness to follow their leaders no matter what. You might recall from history that the Japanese followed their leaders into an alignment with Adolph HItler during WWII (Pearl Harbor? That ring a bell?).
You brought up evolution. It concerns the survival of species, not of individuals.
In what derivation of the English language is "neutralized almost instantly" not roughly equivalent to "doesn't survive long"?
My point still stands: you apparently have a magic face mask that traps the virus somehow and then makes it susceptible to sunlight only when in your mask. Congratulations? Have you considered patenting it?
Well, it appears we have two conflicting stories. I find it interesting that you chose two hospitals in my general area to claim were overrun... when the biggest talk around here were how many people were being laid off from hospitals. The reasoning behind these layoffs was that the hospitals were so locked down that only Chinese virus cases being seen. A few injured/otherwise seriously ill people managed to get not dead during those times, but very few.
Heck, I literally had blood taken in the parking lot of our local hospital because they couldn't let me inside without wearing a mask, and I cannot wear a mask for medical reasons. I have asked if they did any operations in the parking lot, but have received no verification. Thankfully, I had my surgery before the hysteria hit... or I might be room temperature by now.
If there were any shortages they were due to paranoia, not to the virus itself.
Yeah, people tend to panic very easily these days. We also tend to have more emergency assistance for weather events as well... the weather hasn't really changed that much, but people crying for help certainly has.
I didn't even know the 2009 thing existed until I turned on the news.
Hmmm... amazing.
One of the things we have discovered about the Chinese virus is that the normal settings on ventilators were actually responsible for many of the early deaths. At one point, the CDC reported that 75% of the deaths occurred after intubation. We learned of course... by adjusting the settings on the ventilators, the patients were better able to recover.
That's not an indictment of the medical profession nor of the use of ventilators. The Chinese virus was new at the time, and no one knew all the intricacies of treatment. I simply find it strange that your excerpt (like almost every other source) doesn't acknowledge this.
Is that Koolaid grape or cherry? I personally prefer cherry...
TheRedneck
You again failed to cite those reports.
Those reports are all anecdotal. My information is anecdotal. However, it was relayed to me by an actual surgeon, not someone on the Internet. If you want to call him a liar, go right ahead. I'm sure you know more than he does.
Maybe you could have done a better job on my heart?
Even that statement was incorrect. Mask-wearing ordinances were around long before you were born, for example, during the 1918 flu pandemic (mostly In western states).
Actually, it was in a few cities, and was just as controversial as it is today. In comparison, social distancing by the infected has been used every year I can remember since birth, without a single government requirement.
Japan has an even longer history of mask wearing, primarily to prevent spreading one’s own germs or sickness in public places.
Japan is also the most crowded country on the planet, and their history is one of a willingness to follow their leaders no matter what. You might recall from history that the Japanese followed their leaders into an alignment with Adolph HItler during WWII (Pearl Harbor? That ring a bell?).
The survival of the human race is not threatened. The wellbeing of individuals is.
You brought up evolution. It concerns the survival of species, not of individuals.
Like other coronaviruses, it is not 'neutralized almost instantly under sunlight'. Rather, as I said, it doesn't survive long outside the body in bright sunlight.
In what derivation of the English language is "neutralized almost instantly" not roughly equivalent to "doesn't survive long"?
My point still stands: you apparently have a magic face mask that traps the virus somehow and then makes it susceptible to sunlight only when in your mask. Congratulations? Have you considered patenting it?
Only because you're determined not to know.
Well, it appears we have two conflicting stories. I find it interesting that you chose two hospitals in my general area to claim were overrun... when the biggest talk around here were how many people were being laid off from hospitals. The reasoning behind these layoffs was that the hospitals were so locked down that only Chinese virus cases being seen. A few injured/otherwise seriously ill people managed to get not dead during those times, but very few.
Heck, I literally had blood taken in the parking lot of our local hospital because they couldn't let me inside without wearing a mask, and I cannot wear a mask for medical reasons. I have asked if they did any operations in the parking lot, but have received no verification. Thankfully, I had my surgery before the hysteria hit... or I might be room temperature by now.
If there were any shortages they were due to paranoia, not to the virus itself.
The last flu pandemic was 2009
Yeah, people tend to panic very easily these days. We also tend to have more emergency assistance for weather events as well... the weather hasn't really changed that much, but people crying for help certainly has.
I didn't even know the 2009 thing existed until I turned on the news.
Far fewer are hospitalized by flu, but of those that are:
Hmmm... amazing.
One of the things we have discovered about the Chinese virus is that the normal settings on ventilators were actually responsible for many of the early deaths. At one point, the CDC reported that 75% of the deaths occurred after intubation. We learned of course... by adjusting the settings on the ventilators, the patients were better able to recover.
That's not an indictment of the medical profession nor of the use of ventilators. The Chinese virus was new at the time, and no one knew all the intricacies of treatment. I simply find it strange that your excerpt (like almost every other source) doesn't acknowledge this.
They're mostly being adjusted up.
Is that Koolaid grape or cherry? I personally prefer cherry...
TheRedneck
originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: IndieA
US states most sympathetic to socialist and communist seem to have the toughest restrictions.
...and the most problem with controlling the virus...
TheRedneck
Sources???
a reply to: TheRedneck
You assume that everyone could be infected because your eyeballs ears nose mouth and skin are unable to detect if and when a person is infected specifically with Corona Virus.
This can be detected by testing only after they have been tested which a person will most likely come into contact with many people before that testing takes place.
If you or anyone else became infected if you were to be using a mask properly this would reduce the spread.
Also the idea the removing a mask off your face "releases" all the built up viral particles instantly the moment you take a mask off is absurd, your mask is part of you environment too nothing happens in a vacuum. Of course they will have viral particles but also what kills the virus UV LIGHT, which most of us are surrounded by on the regs that that's one caveat we have going for us. Virus trapped on the mask will certainly be dying almost the second UV rays hit them. Yes you need more powerful sustained UV blasts to destroy all the viral beasties but hey some UV is better than none and it will help.
If you think of a mask as a tool to help you through a pandemic where people are dying you'll use it properly but if you think it's bunk and are just trying to get through your day how you want without thinking about any others you won't respect the mask and it's utility.
Also all y'all's who get like the low oxygen stuff going on are you afraid of your pillow cases or blankets giving you brain damage at night if they so happen to fall upon your face holes, you could be getting dimmer everytime you sleep and you wouldn't even know!!!
I kid I kid, but for real saying mask wearing is bad because of a slight physiological change that the body COMPENSATES for is like saying picking up some weight will put pressure on your joints, increase your heart rate, and break muscle fiber, and they're all gonna act differently for a time while you carry that weight...so no more lifting anyone cuz it's bad, change is bad...bad bad bad.
The human body is resilient and if you have issues with oxygen levels perhaps there's things you can do to help that out, not ask that everyone put themselves at risk by removing mask rules.
"You need to be at least 10% smarter than the machine you're using in order to use it correctly."
-a very wise man [not that long ago]
You assume that everyone could be infected because your eyeballs ears nose mouth and skin are unable to detect if and when a person is infected specifically with Corona Virus.
This can be detected by testing only after they have been tested which a person will most likely come into contact with many people before that testing takes place.
If you or anyone else became infected if you were to be using a mask properly this would reduce the spread.
Also the idea the removing a mask off your face "releases" all the built up viral particles instantly the moment you take a mask off is absurd, your mask is part of you environment too nothing happens in a vacuum. Of course they will have viral particles but also what kills the virus UV LIGHT, which most of us are surrounded by on the regs that that's one caveat we have going for us. Virus trapped on the mask will certainly be dying almost the second UV rays hit them. Yes you need more powerful sustained UV blasts to destroy all the viral beasties but hey some UV is better than none and it will help.
If you think of a mask as a tool to help you through a pandemic where people are dying you'll use it properly but if you think it's bunk and are just trying to get through your day how you want without thinking about any others you won't respect the mask and it's utility.
Also all y'all's who get like the low oxygen stuff going on are you afraid of your pillow cases or blankets giving you brain damage at night if they so happen to fall upon your face holes, you could be getting dimmer everytime you sleep and you wouldn't even know!!!
I kid I kid, but for real saying mask wearing is bad because of a slight physiological change that the body COMPENSATES for is like saying picking up some weight will put pressure on your joints, increase your heart rate, and break muscle fiber, and they're all gonna act differently for a time while you carry that weight...so no more lifting anyone cuz it's bad, change is bad...bad bad bad.
The human body is resilient and if you have issues with oxygen levels perhaps there's things you can do to help that out, not ask that everyone put themselves at risk by removing mask rules.
"You need to be at least 10% smarter than the machine you're using in order to use it correctly."
-a very wise man [not that long ago]
edit on 12-6-2021 by Poofmander because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Poofmander
I assume nothing. That's you.
If I believed I was infected with a virus, I would simply not be around others. That is a guarantee I would not be infecting anyone else.
Did I say they all jump off the moment the mask is removed?
Every viral particle that is exhaled into a mask winds up in one of three possible conditions: It remains in the mask; it escapes the mask into the atmosphere; or it is re-inhaled back into the wearer's body. That's the only thing that can possibly happen to it.
If it remains in the mask, then the mask itself becomes a source of viral particles. As the moisture the mask has caught evaporates from not being on one's face, those viral particles will drift off it.
If it escapes into the atmosphere, the mask has not been effective for that particle.
If it is re-inhaled into the wearer's body, it re-infects the wearer and increases viral load.
Nothing else can happen to a viral particle from wearing a face mask. Nothing. They do not simply disappear when they hit a face mask.
You just got through telling me that was a lie unless they were trapped in your face mask (which is apparently some uber-special viral-killing force of nature). Make up your mind.
Incidentally, know what else kills the virus, almost on contact? Certain mouthwashes. I gargle regularly. Do you?
You caught me there, haus. You're right. I want to live my day out without that inconvenience of dying.
Medical condition, remember? Or does that not matter now? People should just lay down and die so you feel safer from the big bad virus that's still got a 99+% survival rate?
Not. Going. To. Happen. Without. A. Fight. A big, bad, guns-blazing, blood-spurting, gore-soaked FIGHT. Now, how important is my wearing a mask to you? Is it worth that?
Didn't sound like it. Maybe because some people around here aren't kidding.
Under normal circumstances, the heart rate will increase to compensate for a lower SplO2 reading. That moves the blood faster and allows more blood cells to pass the muscles in the same amount of time. So you're right... as long as the heart can pump more blood. I used to wear masks (actually bandanas) a good bit, as I tend to be around some pretty nasty fumes.
But my heart can't do that anymore. My heart rate goes up just walking. One wall of my heart is not moving. It has been damaged; it is now just scar tissue.
Why not require that everyone just wear a hazmat suit? That would give 100% confirmation that no viral particles would ever leak out.
The answer is that you are simply terrified of catching a bad cold because the media has been telling you how bad it is. And the same media is pushing the mask narrative, so you go along with it out of simple fear. How about you try to take some responsibility for your own phobias instead of demanding that others go out of their way, potentially damaging their own health, to placate your fears?
If you're that skeered, maybe you might want to invest in a haz-mat suit. I promise you this will not be the last virus. Sounds like you'll need one eventually. Or, you could accept that yes, the human body is quite resilient and therefore is capable of fighting off viruses without compromising breathing freely.
True. Too bad most mask wearers I have seen, screaming about a virus while wearing their own mask on their chin, aren't smarter than the mask.
TheRedneck
You assume that everyone could be infected because your eyeballs ears nose mouth and skin are unable to detect if and when a person is infected specifically with Corona Virus.
I assume nothing. That's you.
If you or anyone else became infected if you were to be using a mask properly this would reduce the spread.
If I believed I was infected with a virus, I would simply not be around others. That is a guarantee I would not be infecting anyone else.
Also the idea the removing a mask off your face "releases" all the built up viral particles instantly the moment you take a mask off is absurd, your mask is part of you environment too nothing happens in a vacuum.
Did I say they all jump off the moment the mask is removed?
Every viral particle that is exhaled into a mask winds up in one of three possible conditions: It remains in the mask; it escapes the mask into the atmosphere; or it is re-inhaled back into the wearer's body. That's the only thing that can possibly happen to it.
If it remains in the mask, then the mask itself becomes a source of viral particles. As the moisture the mask has caught evaporates from not being on one's face, those viral particles will drift off it.
If it escapes into the atmosphere, the mask has not been effective for that particle.
If it is re-inhaled into the wearer's body, it re-infects the wearer and increases viral load.
Nothing else can happen to a viral particle from wearing a face mask. Nothing. They do not simply disappear when they hit a face mask.
Of course they will have viral particles but also what kills the virus UV LIGHT, which most of us are surrounded by on the regs that that's one caveat we have going for us. Virus trapped on the mask will certainly be dying almost the second UV rays hit them. Yes you need more powerful sustained UV blasts to destroy all the viral beasties but hey some UV is better than none and it will help.
You just got through telling me that was a lie unless they were trapped in your face mask (which is apparently some uber-special viral-killing force of nature). Make up your mind.
Incidentally, know what else kills the virus, almost on contact? Certain mouthwashes. I gargle regularly. Do you?
If you think of a mask as a tool to help you through a pandemic where people are dying you'll use it properly but if you think it's bunk and are just trying to get through your day how you want without thinking about any others you won't respect the mask and it's utility.
You caught me there, haus. You're right. I want to live my day out without that inconvenience of dying.
Medical condition, remember? Or does that not matter now? People should just lay down and die so you feel safer from the big bad virus that's still got a 99+% survival rate?
Not. Going. To. Happen. Without. A. Fight. A big, bad, guns-blazing, blood-spurting, gore-soaked FIGHT. Now, how important is my wearing a mask to you? Is it worth that?
I kid I kid
Didn't sound like it. Maybe because some people around here aren't kidding.
but for real saying mask wearing is bad because of a slight physiological change that the body COMPENSATES for is like saying picking up some weight will put pressure on your joints, increase your heart rate, and break muscle fiber, and they're all gonna act differently for a time while you carry that weight...so no more lifting anyone cuz it's bad, change is bad...bad bad bad.
Under normal circumstances, the heart rate will increase to compensate for a lower SplO2 reading. That moves the blood faster and allows more blood cells to pass the muscles in the same amount of time. So you're right... as long as the heart can pump more blood. I used to wear masks (actually bandanas) a good bit, as I tend to be around some pretty nasty fumes.
But my heart can't do that anymore. My heart rate goes up just walking. One wall of my heart is not moving. It has been damaged; it is now just scar tissue.
The human body is resilient and if you have issues with oxygen levels perhaps there's things you can do to help that out, not ask that everyone put themselves at risk by removing mask rules.
Why not require that everyone just wear a hazmat suit? That would give 100% confirmation that no viral particles would ever leak out.
The answer is that you are simply terrified of catching a bad cold because the media has been telling you how bad it is. And the same media is pushing the mask narrative, so you go along with it out of simple fear. How about you try to take some responsibility for your own phobias instead of demanding that others go out of their way, potentially damaging their own health, to placate your fears?
If you're that skeered, maybe you might want to invest in a haz-mat suit. I promise you this will not be the last virus. Sounds like you'll need one eventually. Or, you could accept that yes, the human body is quite resilient and therefore is capable of fighting off viruses without compromising breathing freely.
"You need to be at least 10% smarter than the machine you're using in order to use it correctly."
True. Too bad most mask wearers I have seen, screaming about a virus while wearing their own mask on their chin, aren't smarter than the mask.
TheRedneck
a reply to: TheRedneck
I dont want to get sick as to not infect others, and your argument that if you believed you had the virus you just wouldn't be around people...what in the world makes you think you would know if you were aymptomatic, what makes you think you wouldn't convince yourself it's just a common cold.
The way you act people should assume there's a possibility you havent thought transmission possibilities through so you should be treated as though you could be spreading it, not sick, not dying, spreading the disease. I believe I would live yes but my paraplegic sister-in law she's got trouble breathing, if I passed by you after you came in contact with someone and we hadn't reduced the spread chance with masks and distancing, you being asymptomatic me catching and incubating it for a couple days before I get sick, now she's exposed, now we have to get her to the hospital, she can't just NOT BE AROUND OTHERS so this is why we all must do as much as we can because many other people's health problems which are not their own fault that they can barely afford in this country had to deal with an overworked healthcare system that was bunk to begin with.
I know everyone wants to be a bad@$$ and say they didn't need masks and vaccines to get through this, but you ever think, maybe taking a questionable vaccine in order to see if it works, that's pretty bad@$$ to put yourself on the line like that. To make sure your masked and sanitize when you can you know what if your savin lives guess what yer a bad@$$.
Saying I'm gonna just stay home if I think I'm sick....not bad@$$ so you won't have anything fun to brag about in the future, so you may as well get the jab to be the bad@$$ risk taker I know you are.
I dont want to get sick as to not infect others, and your argument that if you believed you had the virus you just wouldn't be around people...what in the world makes you think you would know if you were aymptomatic, what makes you think you wouldn't convince yourself it's just a common cold.
The way you act people should assume there's a possibility you havent thought transmission possibilities through so you should be treated as though you could be spreading it, not sick, not dying, spreading the disease. I believe I would live yes but my paraplegic sister-in law she's got trouble breathing, if I passed by you after you came in contact with someone and we hadn't reduced the spread chance with masks and distancing, you being asymptomatic me catching and incubating it for a couple days before I get sick, now she's exposed, now we have to get her to the hospital, she can't just NOT BE AROUND OTHERS so this is why we all must do as much as we can because many other people's health problems which are not their own fault that they can barely afford in this country had to deal with an overworked healthcare system that was bunk to begin with.
I know everyone wants to be a bad@$$ and say they didn't need masks and vaccines to get through this, but you ever think, maybe taking a questionable vaccine in order to see if it works, that's pretty bad@$$ to put yourself on the line like that. To make sure your masked and sanitize when you can you know what if your savin lives guess what yer a bad@$$.
Saying I'm gonna just stay home if I think I'm sick....not bad@$$ so you won't have anything fun to brag about in the future, so you may as well get the jab to be the bad@$$ risk taker I know you are.
edit on 13-6-2021 by Poofmander because: For all the bad@$$3$
a reply to: TheRedneck
Also if your heart can't hack a mask on your face how will you fight this intense bloody mask fight with you spec ops balaklava on...you live in many world bro, a mask could give lower O2 but man I'm gonna fight to the last fingernail if they wanna put one on me.
Your health doesn't really help you case for being ready to fight my friend, now if you are a fighting man I don't think you'd be complaining too too much about a piece of cloth cuz most even with respiratory problems can fight through that, and apparently you won't.
Also if your heart can't hack a mask on your face how will you fight this intense bloody mask fight with you spec ops balaklava on...you live in many world bro, a mask could give lower O2 but man I'm gonna fight to the last fingernail if they wanna put one on me.
Your health doesn't really help you case for being ready to fight my friend, now if you are a fighting man I don't think you'd be complaining too too much about a piece of cloth cuz most even with respiratory problems can fight through that, and apparently you won't.
a reply to: Poofmander
Who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself? Because it certainly isn't working on me.
I'm not interested in being a "badass" or anything like that. Hell, I doubt I could be if I wanted to. No, I'm interested in keeping myself healthy so I can still function to some degree. I can't do that in a mask... try to understand, I know it's hard, but try: wearing a mask could be highly dangerous for me in my medical condition. Much more so than some silly virus... I would have a 99+% chance of survival with the virus; restrict my breathing and there is a 100% chance that I will be incapacitated and a decent chance I will not survive.
That's not someone trying to be a "badass." That's someone playing the odds responsibly.
As for the vaccines... go get vaccinated if you want. I don't care either way. Get yourself informed of the risks and take the chances you choose to take. I wouldn't suggest you do so just to prove you're all "badass," but that's not my decision. I made my decision some time back: my immunity is still strong, so I will wait and see of there are any long-term effects. My doctor agrees with that decision.
Your post is exactly why I made the statement about the intelligence of mask proponents. Here I am, fully knowledgeable about my health condition, under a doctor's care (3 of them, actually), making the decisions for me that will give me the best chance of thriving. And then here you come, with your germaphobia showing as clear as the nose on my face, trying to berate me for not risking my damn life to assuage your fears. You have absolutely zero information on me and why I cannot wear a mask, so you make up this little fairy tale in your head about how I'm supposedly putting on some macho airs... and then try to act on that fantasy as though it were reality.
And you've even convinced yourself (or at least are trying to) that you're being all humanitarian by telling others to do something that could endanger their health, or else! No, you're paranoid because some dude on that TV screen who you don't know and who doesn't even know you exist, told you to be paranoid.
Wear your mask all you want. Wear two if you want. Fine. I'll even appreciate that you are advertising your sign. But you will stop short of forcing me to do so. That's not me being "badass"; that's just a promise.
TheRedneck
I dont want to get sick as to not infect others
Who are you trying to convince? Me or yourself? Because it certainly isn't working on me.
I'm not interested in being a "badass" or anything like that. Hell, I doubt I could be if I wanted to. No, I'm interested in keeping myself healthy so I can still function to some degree. I can't do that in a mask... try to understand, I know it's hard, but try: wearing a mask could be highly dangerous for me in my medical condition. Much more so than some silly virus... I would have a 99+% chance of survival with the virus; restrict my breathing and there is a 100% chance that I will be incapacitated and a decent chance I will not survive.
That's not someone trying to be a "badass." That's someone playing the odds responsibly.
As for the vaccines... go get vaccinated if you want. I don't care either way. Get yourself informed of the risks and take the chances you choose to take. I wouldn't suggest you do so just to prove you're all "badass," but that's not my decision. I made my decision some time back: my immunity is still strong, so I will wait and see of there are any long-term effects. My doctor agrees with that decision.
Your post is exactly why I made the statement about the intelligence of mask proponents. Here I am, fully knowledgeable about my health condition, under a doctor's care (3 of them, actually), making the decisions for me that will give me the best chance of thriving. And then here you come, with your germaphobia showing as clear as the nose on my face, trying to berate me for not risking my damn life to assuage your fears. You have absolutely zero information on me and why I cannot wear a mask, so you make up this little fairy tale in your head about how I'm supposedly putting on some macho airs... and then try to act on that fantasy as though it were reality.
And you've even convinced yourself (or at least are trying to) that you're being all humanitarian by telling others to do something that could endanger their health, or else! No, you're paranoid because some dude on that TV screen who you don't know and who doesn't even know you exist, told you to be paranoid.
Wear your mask all you want. Wear two if you want. Fine. I'll even appreciate that you are advertising your sign. But you will stop short of forcing me to do so. That's not me being "badass"; that's just a promise.
TheRedneck
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