Can you really say Evolution has no Meaning ?

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm


As much as I respect his right to an opinion and your right to admire his opinion (read: philosophical assertion that can't be treated as fact) it still has nothing to do with evolution.

If consciousness is fundamental to physical reality, then matter working randomly could not have created consciousness. This makes it abundantly clear to me that consciousness is more fundamental, and that an extra-dimensional Mind is the founder of our universe. At the very least it disproves material-reductionism...

See, this is the part where you keep getting confused. Consciousness is not fundamental to physical reality, it is fundamental to measuring/recording physical reality in abstract terms for communication purposes. It does not "create" reality. Matter preceded consciousness by billions of years and none of your quantum physics pioneers have proven otherwise.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Matter preceded consciousness by billions of years

Proof? Your faith is astounding. How you can denigrate the importance of consciousness, despite you yourself existing as a conscious agent, is quite remarkable.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Matter preceded consciousness by billions of years

Proof? Your faith is astounding. How you can denigrate the importance of consciousness, despite you yourself existing as a conscious agent, is quite remarkable.

I'm simply acknowledging what the data indicates. My consciousness is not a motivating factor in the discussion. If it were, I'd be inclined to call it "ego".

originally posted by: TzarChasm

I'm simply acknowledging what the data indicates.

It indicates that observation, whether by human or an extension of human consciousness, is an effector of physical systems.

"What really matters for me is … the more active role of the observer in quantum physics … According to quantum physics the observer has indeed a new relation to the physical events around him in comparison with the classical observer, who is merely a spectator." -Wolfgang Pauli

You are stuck in classical thinking. Science has since upgraded.

a reply to: TzarChasm

To be fair it is by your own definition impossible to have a recorded or measurable proof that matter predated consciousness or vice versa..

Congratulations it only took 50 pages to brake it down to the chicken/egg question...

Back to the drawing board i guess here is some inspiration ATS primeval code
I'm curious about your facts considering this Ebbner Effect and how it ties into evolution.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm

I'm simply acknowledging what the data indicates.

It indicates that observation, whether by human or an extension of human consciousness, is an effector of physical systems.

"What really matters for me is … the more active role of the observer in quantum physics … According to quantum physics the observer has indeed a new relation to the physical events around him in comparison with the classical observer, who is merely a spectator." -Wolfgang Pauli

You are stuck in classical thinking. Science has since upgraded.

No, but go ahead and keep Googling examples of physicists conflating consciousness with particle behavior and shoehorning it into the theory of evolution. There's still no evidence of consciousness preceding matter and definitely no evidence of cosmic wizardry. Just you and your ego craving validation from ethereal forces. But I respect your right to have an imagination.

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: TzarChasm

To be fair it is by your own definition impossible to have a recorded or measurable proof that matter predated consciousness or vice versa..

Congratulations it only took 50 pages to brake it down to the chicken/egg question...

Back to the drawing board i guess here is some inspiration ATS primeval code

I'm curious about your facts considering this Ebbner Effect and how it ties into evolution.

All known evidence indicates life didn't exist until roughly a billion (1,000,000,000+/-) years ago. Measuring consciousness is a different matter and calls into question our own sanity as a species (for the sake of efficient dialogue, we assume that we can reliably compare other examples of intelligent life with our own abilities)

Perhaps you can briefly describe the "Ebner Effect" for the forum, if you don't mind.

a reply to: TzarChasm


for the sake of the argument did you do the thought exercise that consciousness predates matter? Can you imagine it?

oh you want the readers digest sure...

Apparently some swiss scientist working for novartis former ciba geyge sprouted seeds and hedged trout eggs under a electrostatic field, and the results were long extinct ferns, trouts and super productive corn, he went public on tv only once then it was patented and shelfed away never to be investigated further...

i always wondered how that fits into the current evolutionary model, I`m still looking for some experts taking a stance, but after I link them...crickets...

figure that

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: TzarChasm


for the sake of the argument did you do the thought exercise that consciousness predates matter? Can you imagine it?

oh you want the readers digest sure...

Apparently some swiss scientist working for novartis former ciba geyge sprouted seeds and hedged trout eggs under a electrostatic field, and the results were long extinct ferns, trouts and super productive corn, he went public on tv only once then it was patented and shelfed away never to be investigated further...

i always wondered how that fits into the current evolutionary model, I`m still looking for some experts taking a stance, but after I link them...crickets...

figure that

Have you replicated these experiments in your own controlled environment to confirm the results described in the sources you provided?

a reply to: TzarChasm


no

have you with all the sources you provided?

why is that even important?

originally posted by: TzarChasm


All known evidence indicates life didn't exist until roughly a billion (1,000,000,000+/-) years ago.

In your opinion, what is the best evidence that indicates this is true? Be specific

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: TzarChasm


for the sake of the argument did you do the thought exercise that consciousness predates matter? Can you imagine it?

oh you want the readers digest sure...

Apparently some swiss scientist working for novartis former ciba geyge sprouted seeds and hedged trout eggs under a electrostatic field, and the results were long extinct ferns, trouts and super productive corn, he went public on tv only once then it was patented and shelfed away never to be investigated further...

i always wondered how that fits into the current evolutionary model, I`m still looking for some experts taking a stance, but after I link them...crickets...

figure that

Though they classified the trout as having been extinct, we're talking about molecular biologists, not paleozoologists. The supposed results with the trout was that treated ones had a slight "salmon hook" lower jaw. They were still rainbow trout.

Harte

a reply to: Terpene

It's important because one of the basic principles of scientific discipline is replication. Given materials and opportunity, a specific result should be reproduced as many times as statistically necessary to be considered credible. The sources you provided aren't exactly recent or well documented outside of a patent application.

a reply to: Harte

true yet that particular trait was present once but isn`t anymore...so?

Has this become about reading the link after my readers diggest, just to nitpick what I wrote in order to avoid adressing the actual elephant in the room?

Or is this an objective disscussion where facts can be looked at without bias?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

See, this is the part where you keep getting confused. Consciousness is not fundamental to physical reality, it is fundamental to measuring/recording physical reality in abstract terms for communication purposes. It does not "create" reality. Matter preceded consciousness by billions of years and none of your quantum physics pioneers have proven otherwise.

People keep thinking that their reality is truly reality and that isn't how it works. Our reality is what our brains says it is using very limited resources to gather data, and if someone doesn't believe me just drop some acid some time. Take our eyes, they only transmit slices of reality and our brains fill in the gaps. This is why a magician can do a sleight of hand trick right in front of you, tell you what they are doing and what is going to happen and still not see it. This below 70% of the people will not get it. That 30% that does doesn't mean they are special as they will fail on the next one just as easy, while someone failing on this one will win on the next.

a reply to: cooperton

In your opinion, what is the best evidence that indicates this is true? Be specific

No, I think it's your turn to start answering the questions. Tell us what you think happened. Be specific.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I`m sure debunkers would be all over it... but crickets

it hasn`t been disproven either...
but it has been proven. I assume even back then someone like ciba geyge would follow cientific protocols before going public. so if you want to discard this experiment, the burden of proof is not up to me.

is it because it doesen`t fit your world view? because you never heard of it?

as much as my narcisstic me enjoys that, why not just adress the ebbner effect why make it about me?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

All known evidence indicates life didn't exist until roughly a billion (1,000,000,000+/-) years ago. Measuring consciousness is a different matter and calls into question our own sanity as a species (for the sake of efficient dialogue, we assume that we can reliably compare other examples of intelligent life with our own abilities)

Perhaps you can briefly describe the "Ebner Effect" for the forum, if you don't mind.

I think life started about 3.7 billion years ago, but was rather stagnate until about a billion years ago to where more advance life kicked into overdrive. I suggested that once the predator/prey scenario came on the scene it is what kicked off the arms race in life.

originally posted by: cooperton

In your opinion, what is the best evidence that indicates this is true? Be specific

When do you think life began, and how old do you think the earth is?

originally posted by: Terpene

To be fair it is by your own definition impossible to have a recorded or measurable proof that matter predated consciousness or vice versa..

What is consciousness? It seems it is a variable state created by our brain and not some stable entity that existed before we were born. Do you believe that plants have a level of this so called consciousness too? And it doesn't mean humans are the top either, dolphins anyone...or how about an alien that is at a level of what a human would be to a plant...lol

Consciousness is just some human abstract that we created to explain our inner thoughts, but it is all just our brain faking us out 90% of the time and not some external entity or force.

I wouldn`t dare to define the term consciousness, but you did pretty well.
I consider many possibilities, but only few reach the rank of faith...

I just like thought experiments and see how far i can spin it before sounding like a lunatic