No Intelligence in evolutionary branches?

a reply to: cooperton

Yeah but that's not evolution. The viruses are inserting a gene that causes the host to create more protein capsids of that virus.

The process of replication usually destroys the host cell. I'm talking about information from bacteria species A finding it's way into bacteria species B and this creating a new altered species with genetic code from both. I just mentioned a couple of ways that occurs.

What is most profound is that all cultures seem to have a different perspective on the same historical event. It confirms they are not just copy and pasting another culture's history, but instead have their own opinions about the actual events that occurred.

That's hardly profound to me. We're humans, we learn from one another. I find similar conclusions with no interaction between cultures to be profound.

Where did the Aztecs and Mayans learn to smelt metals for instance. Plenty of evidence they did yet they never came to the same sciences or application of said smelting. I mention this because in the old world as we call it smelting techniques were nowhere and then everywhere in a small amount of time. We humans do get around... Our information spreads with us. Just like our old stories.

I mean I could say maths is the unifying force if mankind but it can be expressed or used by loads of multicellular life forms, plenty of science to address this...Or I could say we're special and the maths came from god's however it seems to me that maths is something all advanced human societies refine. Something that had constructs made around it that was found independently by different cultures. We use the decimal system today. There's been plenty of others before.

Is that humans evolving their understanding of maths? Different systems from different god's?

Or is it we're not too different from the animals that can count just that we have the ability to refine it?

Either way I'm more interested in how and why we organise as we do not where we learned how to do maths.

Apologies if that makes little sense got a bit of a migraine

a reply to: Puppylove


no woo for you then, that makes more for me.

i like woo

still thank you for the contribution.

only the time aspect is enough to make me stop and ponder some woo.

our human evolution from primitive inteligence to complex inteligence is just a very brief moment considered the length of the overall evolution. and even there we can see other animals adapt and evolve very quickly to our new input.

if evolution gets pushed forward or backward by just random occurence. We can estimate by our own evolution how fast it could go. with this comparison we can say that the amount of time fishes have been dwelling under water without evolving complex inteligence is mathematicaly imposible.

where are they?

NC

a reply to: Puppylove

Great posts!

Explaining things much better than I can lol, refinement is a big part of intelligence. I'd argue the hunting techniques of orca are way up their in terms of intelligence, seemingly a passed on trait.

The Corvus family is one I love, amazing animals and I've got a couple of awesome stories of my own relating to their intelligence. They can count remarkably well.

a reply to: NoConspiracy

It's completely possible. There's no need for them to develop intelligence what so ever. Evolution isn't random. It's adaptive. No need for change equals very little change, and not all paths lead to the same inevitability. Advanced intelligence is simply not the path most things are on. It's rare, a lot is required for intelligence, it's an energy hog, and often involves things like vulnerability for young and other weaknesses.

Humans may have acquired advanced intelligence in a short time, but it didn't advance in a vacuum. The roots of such intelligence were built over a long period of time. We didn't start from nothing. Mammals as a whole are actually pretty intelligent. It took a long time for evolution to get to a point where intelligence as we have it could develop, for the basic blocks to be in place. You'd needs a foundation and walls before you can build and attach a roof.

a reply to: RAY1990

On Orcas, another proof of intelligence in my mind. Orcas are the bullies of the sea, they fear no one and nothing. Like a cat they love to toy with pretty much anything they wish. My point is, they fear nothing, and have tactics for dealing with every kind of prey. The only thing which can challenge and is a true threat to them is man kind. But that's only obvious with advanced understanding of cause and effect. With all their violent nature, they don't attack humans in the wild, pretty much, ever. This is true even if the human is alone or without help.

I have a theory that long ago, Orcas had a run in with man, and learned, due to their intelligence, that when you harm a man, they come with their boats and kill many, and that it is a war they cannot win. I believe they pass on the stories of these days throughout the generations. It's the only thing that makes sense to me for why they would seem to pretty much NEVER attack us. It goes against their personality elsewhere.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: NoConspiracy

It's completely possible. There's no need for them to develop intelligence what so ever. Evolution isn't random. It's adaptive. No need for change equals very little change, and not all paths lead to the same inevitability. Advanced intelligence is simply not the path most things are on. It's rare, a lot is required for intelligence, it's an energy hog, and often involves things like vulnerability for young and other weaknesses.

Humans may have acquired advanced intelligence in a short time, but it didn't advance in a vacuum. The roots of such intelligence were built over a long period of time. We didn't start from nothing. Mammals as a whole are actually pretty intelligent. It took a long time for evolution to get to a point where intelligence as we have it could develop, for the basic blocks to be in place. You'd needs a foundation and walls before you can build and attach a roof.

This doesn't mean humans today are more intelligent than humans centuries ago, however. We have more KNOWLEDGE than they did, that's all.

What we have, which they did NOT have, is the knowledge, the creations, the technology, built up over previous centuries, which was further and further built upon, revised, over and over again, and WE are the beneficiaries of all they have achieved, developed, and built up, before us.

So of course, it may appear we are vastly more intelligent than before, when they had no computers, no cars, no electricity, etc. It makes them look primitive, and dumb, as a tribe in Africa would appear to us, even TODAY!

I'm sure you don't think the African tribes are all pea-brained half-wits, because they wear animal skins, live in mud shacks, and wear paint on their faces, do you? If one of the children in those tribes was taken to London, became well-educated, over the years, when he finally returned to his tribe, he would ALSO think they were pea-brained idiots, too!

African tribes have the same abilities, same intellect, we have, just like those who lived centuries ago had the same intellect we have today.

Evolution is random, it's called the genetic lottery for a reason. Copy paste messes up a tiny bit every time they play the recombination game and sometimes this causes mutation. Mutations do not have to be healthy or useful.

I think ravens and dolphins and dogs and ferrets are some excellent examples of intelligent life that is maybe more clever than humans even. Feel free to add to the list

originally posted by: Puppylove
It took a long time for evolution to get to a point where intelligence as we have it could develop, for the basic blocks to be in place.

Any suggestion on how a biological supercomputer comprising of over 1 trillion glial cells and 100 billion neurons managed to organize itself into a self-aware organ interconnected and in control of the rest of the body? Evolutionary mechanisms cannot create such a thing.

Take for example Chimpanzees having only 9 billion neurons. In the theoretical 5-7 million years it took chimpanzees to evolve into humans, they would have needed to add 91 billion neurons in an organized and functional manner to culminate the human brain. Given generational years of 25, there would have only been 200,000 generations between chimps and humans, meaning that this theoretical evolutionary lineage must have grown their neuronal mass by 4.5 million neurons per generation on average. That is absurd and never seen in a lab. Ever. When you crunch the numbers you realize evolution is an absolute fantasy and has no basis in reality.

a reply to: cooperton

We didn't evolve from chimpanzees, we have a common ancestor. As for how evolution works, it's a thing we're still researching and learning the mechanism of. Our knowledge of evolution is being refined as more evidence comes in. Science is ever striving to learn and understand.

a reply to: cooperton

Darwinism is wrong!

that does not make creationism right!

just saying...

Agenda...

sincerely NC

a reply to: Puppylove

except if its woo?

if you would have told someone 40 jeahrs ago about quantum entangelment he would have said wooo...

good that scientist don`t listen to smal minded people

sincerely NC

a reply to: NoConspiracy

Quantum entanglement potentially explains a lot of things, and is discovered by... dun dun dun... science. As such it's not woo. Nothing supernatural here.

The problem with woo is it assumes the supernatural, which as quantum entanglement demonstrates is not necessary for a lot of things. I have no problem with many woo topics, when approached scientifically. Where people look for scientific reasons things may occur.

Take twin telepathy or other twin strangeness over long distances. It's possible it might be, if it truly exists, explained through quantum entanglement. A completely woo topic with a possible scientific explanation.

Quantum mechanics is science, not the supernatural. We have a lot to learn scientifically, and a lot of strange mysteries that may have scientific explanation in time, as our understanding of science improves.

originally posted by: NoConspiracy
a reply to: cooperton

Darwinism is wrong!

that does not make creationism right!

just saying...

Agenda...

sincerely NC

Darwinism is a straw man from the late 1800s, his work is outdated by over a century yet he continues to be a symbol of MES for some reason

a reply to: Puppylove

Using concepts like quantum entanglement and particle wave collapse to reinforce the hypothesis of observer consciousness control over the laws of physics in a mind-over-matter sense is technically misrepresentation of the published data

a reply to: Puppylove

Quantum mechanics is science, not the supernatural. We have a lot to learn scientifically, and a lot of strange mysteries that may have scientific explanation in time, as our understanding of science improves.

The supernatural is entirely explained by quantum science, as is consciousness and all life. Scientists have to figure it out but they won't begin to understand it, until they evolve their own consciousness. It's as though they are stuck in a room and can't get out because they don't know the password .. the word is woo by the way

originally posted by: TzarChasm
Evolution is random, it's called the genetic lottery for a reason. ...

originally posted by: Phantom423

Mutations are random. Natural selection is not. Variation + differential reproduction + heredity = natural selection. If all processes were random there would be no organizing capability for an organism to develop and maintain structure and function.

Since the topic there was "evolution" and since so-called "natural selection" is deemed to be a major component of the process of evolution, should we just wait until you guys decide what to go with for describing the process of evolution in terms of whether or not it is random?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
I think ravens and dolphins and dogs and ferrets are some excellent examples of intelligent life that is maybe more clever than humans even. Feel free to add to the list

Yeah man, have you seen the latest iPhone the ravens released last week?

They are funny though, as most animals can be. Maybe they were built to bring a little joy to our lives specifically? Especially in tough times...

originally posted by: Puppylove
Our knowledge of evolution is being refined as more evidence comes in. Science is ever striving to learn and understand.

As more evidence emerges regarding the complexity of the genetic code, the various requirements for a successful mutation demonstrate that it is no longer a valid theory. The theory insists that genetic code mutations can culminate new proteins that execute a new function, yet mechanistically this is impossible, barring a miracle. One study estimated the likelihood of creating a working functional group on a protein was:

1/10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000...
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
source

That likelihood shown above is only for one functional group. Every protein has multiple functional groups, so that number above^ would have to hit multiple times simultaneously to create a new protein. Not to mention proteins require co-enzymes and chaperone proteins to allow them to fold properly, which would also need to be altered to make the new desired protein shape. And what about the old function that protein once served? Now it is changed and that old necessary function is lost. Even if this crossroad of multiple miracles occurred, what are the odds the new protein even has a relevant biochemical function?????

The theory requires more faith than all religions combined.

a reply to: Puppylove

maybe the woo of yesterday is the science of today, and the woo of of today is the science of tomorrow?

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: NoConspiracy
a reply to: turbonium1

So we didn't evolve at all?
We were never barbaric and rude runing around half naked hunting and gathering, then became cultural and civilized. We just poped into existence as the culture we are now.

That explains alot

I'm concerned about the people who think we can't evolve, what if one does evolve would he have to burn on the stacks like all the heretics that proved Christian "science" wrong?

If God made everything as it is why is there still change?

Sincerely NC

An orangutan never turned into a chimpanzee. A chimpanzee didn't turn into a man. ALL LIFE ON THIS PLANET HAS A COMMON ANCESTOR. Would someone please pay attention for a change and stop listening to the idiots like Turbo# and Cooperstupid.

Thank you.

So true. I really wish this website had an ignore feature. It would make things so much easier. Hope you are staying safe during these rough times

a reply to: kennyb72

More like a ICBM control panel, where TWO need to turn the keys at the same time, to launch.

no way out until they BOTH agree it is time...

sincerely NC