Handy hints for US members visiting the EU when choosing to defend themselves physically

a reply to: Silure

Thing are actually much simpler than that. Essentially you have a duty to retreat. If you try to leave and they physicality to stop you then you can react proportionately. If they shove you then you can try to push last them and if they throw a lunch then your free to lunch back.

The key thing here is that you need to show that you tried to avoid the confrontation. Stand your ground only applies if you are forced into it.

It's why there are so few people killing and then claiming self defense in europe. You have to try to deesculate first.

I prefer;

Think twice, because I wont.

I think most jurisdictions agree that proportionate force is appropriate. You can thwack a burglar if you have good reason to believe you are threatened, and I think in the UK the court would side with you if it got that far. Similarly, the OP describes self-defence where the force applied removes the threat, but where the force applied has not gone beyond that. It’s up to the court to decide on proportionality.

What you cannot do is punitively beat someone once the threat has passed, or as is the case in the US, seemingly shoot them out of hand and get away with it.

If I was an American coming over to a European country (noting the EU is not Europe), then I would be reassured crime is low. If you end up in a situation where you need to defend yourself, then be intelligent about it, including running away or using wit to diffuse the situation.

I was once given advice, which I have never put into practice. If there is a situation which will become violent, then strike first, go for the balls, and run. Pretending to be a Ninja also helps, apparently.

Did Trump just acknowledge that he does not know about the independance of judges? Why else would he *demand* that this rapper with a somewhat childish name be release *immediately*?

Americans are "treated unfairly", my big, fat, hairy a$$.

originally posted by: MisterSpock

originally posted by: Silure
a reply to: MisterSpock

I agree, and likely the US guy will not get a fine, just kicked out as the time in custody would be in lieu of any other punishment. As a foreign national custody prior to full investigation is to be expected unfortunately.

Honestly, sweden officials should have been smart(for once) and just fast tracked this.

The problem for the Swedish officials is Trump getting involved publicly. It has given them no other option other than to prosecute to the full extent of the law as otherwise it looks like they have simply caved to Trump's demands, which would be simply unnacceptable within Sweden.

This is definitely one of those situations where Trump's team should have told him to protest privately to the Swedish authorities, not to do it publicly.

Ultimately though, this is one of those situations where i genuinely couldn't care less about the people involved. The rapper and entourage are just as big idiots as the Swedish dudes.

Wow! You’re a violent guy! I subscribe to talking over violence, and staying out of shady situations, myself.

a reply to: Silure

"Handy hints for US members visiting the EU when choosing to defend themselves physically"

Lol....americans.

Peace

a reply to: underwerks

defending oneself doesnt always need to result in injury or extreme violence, there are many ways to defend yourself from attackers without hurting them badly

many martial arts teach this

originally posted by: paraphi


I was once given advice, which I have never put into practice. If there is a situation which will become violent, then strike first, go for the balls, and run. Pretending to be a Ninja also helps, apparently.

Yes in a pinch , then Eyes , nose , throat , balls

then leg it

, defense isnt always about fighting to the end , you can run , running away is the best form of defense anyone has
if possible.

a reply to: Silure

Stay out if you expect to be able to defend yourself. That's just a fact. I can give you a perfect example - My Uncle and his wife (now ex) were woken by the sound of their back door being booted in (yes booted not broken into softly so this person couldn't be heard but booted in) at 2am. My Uncle (think old fashioned cockney) got out of bed and took his bat with him, he headed downstairs and found two people (I think late teens) in the living room he warned them to leave but they charged him and a fight happened, one of the teens left with a broken arm (he was hit with the bat twice) and the other managed to get away with a black eye (Uncle had some bruises, busted lip and a black eye himself) they called the police and three days later my Uncle was told he was being charged for assault against the criminals.

He took himself to a police station, explained what happened the cop he spoke to said "We would've done the same but the law is what it is" he was charged with assault and fined a couple hundred pounds but he appealed it and a judge said he was within his right to defend his house and family but warned him that using a weapon (bat) would see him charged next time and the fine would've been more. He was told "Defending yourself is your right BUT you also have to take into consideration the person who is attacking you. You cannot do undue harm to them. If they are fleeing allow them to run" my Uncle spoke honestly and said "I can't promise you that. If my wife needs protecting then I'll do whatever I can to do it" the judge didn't say anything to that and my Uncle was free to go no fine etc.

proportionate force is hard to judge if you arent in control of your own emotional states through discipline , thats why many people should learn a martial art, teaches self control , discipline and you learn the strength of your own body !

That way you are better equipped to defend yourself and provide an appropriate response!

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: Silure

Exactly, it is what it is and it's the same throughout most of the world tbh because most reasonable nations use a form of common law.

Anything is a weapon especially if you're fearing for your life, just tow the line of reasonable force.

Agreed mate. We can all find the exceptions of people who made mistakes and got prosecuted because they make the news. Nobody ever hears about the thousands of times people employ reasonable force and win the fight legally because there is no court case.

Regarding weapons, the law allows us to use anything if it is proportional and 'incidental' to the scene. I have a foot long+ maglight next to my bed which I keep there for the purposes of illumination in the event of a power cut. Our curious law as it stands makes it illegal to store it purely for the intention of self defence, but it can be used in an emergency same as a bedside lamp or whatever.
As it happens to be the closest thing to hand, in the event of an attack it would obviously be the first thing I would grab while genuinely fearing for my safety.

One or two bashes to neutralize the threat would be likely be reasonable in the eyes of the crown prosecution service, but then diving on the guy and beating him to a pulp would probably not.

I grew up and have lived in violent places for a big part of my life, lots of fights and similar situations, not one conviction for even affray let alone assault...but then I always make sure I can justify my actions as reasonable...or do it away from cctv and witnesses. 👍

a reply to: AaarghZombies

You can attack first if you genuinely believe someone is imminently about to hurt you or another person. Say a man running towards you with a stick or angry race shouting 'I'm gonna #### you over' or whatever. Been there, done it, was seen on cctv, and the Crown Prosecution service agreed.
I wish I could use CPS here, but it means child protection service to our US cousins lol

a reply to: Dwoodward85
Again, I could give many more examples of myself and friends of mine who the CPS have agreed with. You don't hear about them because they don't go to court, hence no story in the papers.
If you wish to take a beating without defending yourself, go ahead, but if I can't flee the danger then I will stand and fight with any reasonable force as I can employ.
Just don't batter someone when you've done them over because that would not be seen as reasonable usually.

...you story is a bit of a moot point though, he won on appeal so eventually the court agreed with him 👍



Edit, I'd love to hear his recorded interview as well, I bet he stupidly said the bat was kept in his bedroom in case of robbers etc, you can't do that in law here, To play safe he should have had a ball and catching glove, maybe track suit all next to it, then there is enough reasonable doubt that he happened to store it all in his bedroom.
You gotta be clever mate, honestly.

Typical dumb Swedes overcharging. Guess the blond is strong there.(jokes k?)

Well I'm fortunate enough to not have to travel for my job, and there's absolutely no reason to visit Europe otherwise. But thanks for the advice.

a reply to: yuppa
Lmao! 😂


a reply to: jjkenobi
I've been around the world but strangely never the US. I like travelling around, no package tour type holidays, using local bus/trains and visiting small towns. I've been the only white face person in many places over the years, not even able to communicate by language at all, real adventures, but the US has always been bottom of my list, maybe watched 'The hills have eye's and 'Deliverance' too many times lol

Their country. Their laws. If you go there, be aware of the laws/rules of conduct. Consequences of being unaware can be...drastic.

What flies in the States, will crash like a wing-clipped bird there.

In matters of defense, it's by all accounts, extremely subjective. So...if you must defend yourself, less you use, the better. Defend, disengage, and run, as necessary.

a reply to: seagull

You summed up perfectly my inspiration for making this thread 👍
I read the one about matey in Sweden and I totally understood the emotions of US guys posting there, but as soon as I saw the videos I was like, oh #### he has zero defence with the massive bear of a security guy saying he feared injury or death, whatever.
What would have happened here with some dick following you would be a swift smackdown then run like #### lol

Happened to me in France one time, guy kept in my face, hit me twice and I used international language (hands up no want fight) Then he went again and I put him down. I should have ran away at that point because he was no longer a threat, but I didn't, I followed him down and ruined his face like the poor young blonde guy got in fight club movie.

When I stopped I ran like #### because no way could I justify it as reasonable force. I didn't feel safe until I was on the ferry back to England, the Gendarmerie cops would have crucified me as an eenglish peeg dog.

We're brought up here knowing when to run, and big-time if you've given someone a full on spanking, because you are running from justice then.
...any punishment beatings are saved here for streets without cctv and a good alibi 😱

Edit, That incident in France was the last time I've ever 'lost it' on someone. I'd taken two punches to the head but because I was not in my country I did everything I could not to fight, proper scared I'd be locked up and probably get a beating off local cops as well.
No, that was a horrible moment, and since posting it here its brought back feelings of remorse still. My character actually falls into line with common law, escape or neutralize the threat then escape. I beat the guy in anger because I was so ####ed off with him for being such a prick forcing a fight out of me.
I took the law into my own hands and he had a punishment beating. The law would not deem it reasonable, and nor should it in my opinion. I could have escaped, I neutralized the threat, but I didn't, and yep, I carry that guilt decades later.

originally posted by: sapien82
proportionate force is hard to judge if you arent in control of your own emotional states through discipline , thats why many people should learn a martial art, teaches self control , discipline and you learn the strength of your own body !

That way you are better equipped to defend yourself and provide an appropriate response!

Good points but we are all human. My best mate teaches a martial art, has done for decades, very good lineage of non UK teachers as well, but even then I've stopped him getting himself locked up for beating someone who in my personal opinion deserved it. He's human ffs, couple of pints and we're all only a couple of "You looking at my bird?" moments away from carnage.

Many times I've stepped in between him and some prick who has started something, while he (my mate) was looking at the back of my head, keeping my fingers crossed that I can control the beast, and I'm saying stuff like "Dude, I can hold him back for now, but just do one please, I'm not taking the piss, if you choose it you will lose, and then it's a mess with all of us getting nicked" Genuine fear for the safety of the prick bloke, and fear for my mate making the wrong decisions while off his nut.

Martial arts yep, my mate taught me enough to beat the average bar brawler years ago, but even disciplined you can lose it sometimes...just being human, that's when your mates come in...for the safety of everyone 👍