If faith was blind belief, why would it be of such importance?

a reply to: new_here

There are atheists who enjoy denigrating and even persecuting the religious. It’s odd because instead of abandoning the topics of religion, god, church, etc. they sort of hold on to them and talk about them incessantly. They need religion as much as the religious do.

Let them have the last word.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Woodcarver

But the definition of atheist is a person who doesn’t believe in gods. Not a person who claims gods don’t exist.

Wouldn't that make you Agnostic rather than Atheist?

Agnostic means you believe we have no way of knowing. There are agnostic theists as well as agnostic atheists. I belive that gods don’t exist because i know that humans make up stories that make them feel better. Every proposed god that you don’t believe in, i agree, and probably for the exact same reasons. I just also don’t believe in the god that you claim exists.

When you count up all proposed gods, probably thousands, and take into account that practically no one believes in any of them any more, the likelyhood that humans just make up gods to justify lots of different things becomes pretty apparent.

a reply to: Woodcarver

With all that said, hopefully, you will answer the question I posted to you on the previous page about the universe.

By the way, there are still billions of people who believe in the God of the Bible, so I take your last statement with a grain of salt.

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf
a reply to: new_here

There are atheists who enjoy denigrating and even persecuting the religious. It’s odd because instead of abandoning the topics of religion, god, church, etc. they sort of hold on to them and talk about them incessantly. They need religion as much as the religious do.

Count the number of religious threads and compare that to the amount of atheist threads here. It is very clear that the religious feel the need to promote their beliefs and the atheists are reacting to all of the silly things that religious people claim. If religious people didn’t insist that we believe them and try to convinve or force everyone to accept their bull#, there wouldn’t be atheists.

Also, if religios just proved all of their extraordinary claims, then no one would need to call out how wrong about nearly everything they are.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Woodcarver

Most of all the questions you are asking.

I am being very clear and precise with every i have written here. Please point out precisely what you think i don’t understand

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Mach2
a reply to: new_here

A big difference is that belief in aliens, or esp is not an inherrent danger to others, while religion is responsibe for countless millions of death, and immeasurable suffering.

So you are claiming faith is an inherent danger?

Not faith, in and of itself. Like I posted earlier, it is usually benign.

The probkems come when organized religion leverage the faith of individuals to affect a sinister outcome.

Some christian religions, particularly Catholicism, have, in the past done some evil things. Fortunately they have evolved into peaceful non political entities.

A contemporary example of religion using faith to institutionalize evil would be some of the Islamic sects.

Before i get slammed for bashing Islam, let me say I try not to paint any group with a broad brush. The fact is, though, that violence is condoned and even incited by some, in the name of Allah.

I am 200% with you on this.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Woodcarver
There are sooooo many of them that contradict yours, that none of them have any value.

Logical fallacy. Value of one can not be assigned based on the value of others. If 10 people come up to you and all tell you 10 different things, is it your claim all 10 must be wrong? Is it your claim that because the first 9 were wrong that the 10th should be dismissed out of hand based on the other 9?

You really missed the mark with your analogy. The value of all faith based claims are equally zero. Not because there are other faith based claims, but because they are not claims that are supported. Faith claims are by definition, unsupported by any evidence. If you have good supporting evidence, you don’t need to employ faith at all.

If ten people come to me with faith based claims, i am not obligated to accept any of them. I can judge them on their merit though and judge which one’s are more likely or more probable. But why would i accept some weird claim that doesn’t seem to match what i can demonstrate about reality?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf
a reply to: new_here

There are atheists who enjoy denigrating and even persecuting the religious. It’s odd because instead of abandoning the topics of religion, god, church, etc. they sort of hold on to them and talk about them incessantly. They need religion as much as the religious do.

Count the number of religious threads and compare that to the amount of atheist threads here. It is very clear that the religious feel the need to promote their beliefs and the atheists are reacting to all of the silly things that religious people claim. If religious people didn’t insist that we believe them and try to convinve or force everyone to accept their bull#, there wouldn’t be atheists.

Also, if religios just proved all of their extraordinary claims, then no one would need to call out how wrong about nearly everything they are.

Count the Religious threads in the religion forum? There is an litany of other forums for atheists to peruse. So why do atheists “feel the need” to linger about in a religious forum, and insist they change their beliefs to conform to yours?

I would hope that anyone who abandoned religion, who see it as silly, would have the stones to pick up other topics of interest, instead of keeping one foot in the circle of religion as it were.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Also, if religios just proved all of their extraordinary claims, then no one would need to call out how wrong about nearly everything they are.

Ditto, because science hasn't been able to prove all of their extraordinary claims either, which leaves us with contemplating alternatives, which no one has proven to be wrong (by the way).

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Mach2
a reply to: new_here

A big difference is that belief in aliens, or esp is not an inherrent danger to others, while religion is responsibe for countless millions of death, and immeasurable suffering.

So you are claiming faith is an inherent danger?

Not faith, in and of itself. Like I posted earlier, it is usually benign.

The probkems come when organized religion leverage the faith of individuals to affect a sinister outcome.

Some christian religions, particularly Catholicism, have, in the past done some evil things. Fortunately they have evolved into peaceful non political entities.

A contemporary example of religion using faith to institutionalize evil would be some of the Islamic sects.

Before i get slammed for bashing Islam, let me say I try not to paint any group with a broad brush. The fact is, though, that violence is condoned and even incited by some, in the name of Allah.

I am 200% with you on this.

why don’t you believe in Islam? Real question.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Perhaps we should discuss what exactly is meant with blind belief. Tell me, what is it that is thought of people who claim to believe in God and what is it about my faith you don't like? Can't you just treat people with respect or is your love conditional?

Blind Belief: What people believe because of their upbringing and environment, before they have had the experiences necessary to know why those beliefs and/or rules are important to survival.

Concrete example: Child believes that walking into the street without looking first for oncoming vehicles is bad (a no-no) because she was told that by her parents. Child sees a dog get hit by car. "Aha! That's why I should follow that rule!"

what is it that is thought of people who claim to believe in God

Sometimes people think "well that's good" and sometimes people assume the claimant does not know what he or she is talking about.

what is it about my faith you don't like?

I don't know.
But sometimes people have strange therefores appended to their faith, such as: "I have faith in Jesus, therefore I must demonstrate against gay marriage."

Can't you just treat people with respect or is your love conditional?

I think I can treat people with respect. Some people I avoid; that way they don't have to experience what could be evidence of my lack of respect for them.

I may have forgotten what love is. When someone says "I love you" I think "What does that even mean?" I can fake it though, by being civil and sometimes generous.

Where does this evil come from?

Evil may be a bit hyperbolic. Maybe rudeness would work. Umm, people sometimes assume they are the masters of conversation when they aren't especially masterful? That would be my guess.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

The study of religion and the history of religion is a whole academic field of study all its own. It's called Theology.

People spend their entire lives researching it.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Woodcarver

Also, if religios just proved all of their extraordinary claims, then no one would need to call out how wrong about nearly everything they are.

Ditto, because science hasn't been able to prove all of their extraordinary claims either, which leaves us with contemplating alternatives.

We should always be contemplating new alternatives to our scientific understanding of our environment. That is literally the job of scientists. But science doesn’t make faith based claims. Science makes claims based on observation and extrapolation.

I believe the sun will appear in the sky tommorow.

That is not a faith based prediction. It is a prediction based on a long history of observations and an understanding of physics as well as astronomy and every other field of science really.

Every scientific model is based on and dependent on data.

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf
a reply to: new_here

There are atheists who enjoy denigrating and even persecuting the religious. It’s odd because instead of abandoning the topics of religion, god, church, etc. they sort of hold on to them and talk about them incessantly. They need religion as much as the religious do.

Count the number of religious threads and compare that to the amount of atheist threads here. It is very clear that the religious feel the need to promote their beliefs and the atheists are reacting to all of the silly things that religious people claim. If religious people didn’t insist that we believe them and try to convinve or force everyone to accept their bull#, there wouldn’t be atheists.

Also, if religios just proved all of their extraordinary claims, then no one would need to call out how wrong about nearly everything they are.

Count the Religious threads in the religion forum? There is an litany of other forums for atheists to peruse. So why do atheists “feel the need” to linger about in a religious forum, and insist they change their beliefs to conform to yours?

I would hope that anyone who abandoned religion, who see it as silly, would have the stones to pick up other topics of interest, instead of keeping one foot in the circle of religion as it were.

Because people keep making unfounded claims and teaching them to other humans. Even children. Why would people do that?

a reply to: Woodcarver

So, knowing that the sun will come up tomorrow, what does that teach you about the origins of the universe? That's a lengthy reply for avoiding your own thoughts on how the universe came to be, or do you just not care to ever contemplate any of it?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf
a reply to: new_here

There are atheists who enjoy denigrating and even persecuting the religious. It’s odd because instead of abandoning the topics of religion, god, church, etc. they sort of hold on to them and talk about them incessantly. They need religion as much as the religious do.

Count the number of religious threads and compare that to the amount of atheist threads here. It is very clear that the religious feel the need to promote their beliefs and the atheists are reacting to all of the silly things that religious people claim. If religious people didn’t insist that we believe them and try to convinve or force everyone to accept their bull#, there wouldn’t be atheists.

Also, if religios just proved all of their extraordinary claims, then no one would need to call out how wrong about nearly everything they are.

Count the Religious threads in the religion forum? There is an litany of other forums for atheists to peruse. So why do atheists “feel the need” to linger about in a religious forum, and insist they change their beliefs to conform to yours?

I would hope that anyone who abandoned religion, who see it as silly, would have the stones to pick up other topics of interest, instead of keeping one foot in the circle of religion as it were.

Because people keep making unfounded claims and teaching them to other humans. Even children. Why would people do that?

I have often thought that most self-proclaimed atheists were once believers rebelling against the beliefs and teachings of their parents. Hence why they never really leave religion, because it is a part of who they are. Is this true in your own case?

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf
a reply to: new_here

There are atheists who enjoy denigrating and even persecuting the religious. It’s odd because instead of abandoning the topics of religion, god, church, etc. they sort of hold on to them and talk about them incessantly. They need religion as much as the religious do.

Count the number of religious threads and compare that to the amount of atheist threads here. It is very clear that the religious feel the need to promote their beliefs and the atheists are reacting to all of the silly things that religious people claim. If religious people didn’t insist that we believe them and try to convinve or force everyone to accept their bull#, there wouldn’t be atheists.

Also, if religios just proved all of their extraordinary claims, then no one would need to call out how wrong about nearly everything they are.

Count the Religious threads in the religion forum? There is an litany of other forums for atheists to peruse. So why do atheists “feel the need” to linger about in a religious forum, and insist they change their beliefs to conform to yours?

I would hope that anyone who abandoned religion, who see it as silly, would have the stones to pick up other topics of interest, instead of keeping one foot in the circle of religion as it were.

i wish religious people would learn how to argue and make better points. I never abandoned religion. I never believed in gods.

I will never leave this discussion as long as people insist that their fantasies be accepted in spite of demonstrable facts.

Perhaps you don’t see the danger that religion and unfounded beliefs put on everyone? But it is a big open secret i’ll let you in on right now.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

..."...Usually when these straw man arguments I mentioned are uttered the conversation is over."

Don't ... know ... if ... that ... means ... that ... the ... conversation ... is ... already ... over ... before ... we ... even ... started ... ?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf
a reply to: new_here

There are atheists who enjoy denigrating and even persecuting the religious. It’s odd because instead of abandoning the topics of religion, god, church, etc. they sort of hold on to them and talk about them incessantly. They need religion as much as the religious do.

Count the number of religious threads and compare that to the amount of atheist threads here. It is very clear that the religious feel the need to promote their beliefs and the atheists are reacting to all of the silly things that religious people claim. If religious people didn’t insist that we believe them and try to convinve or force everyone to accept their bull#, there wouldn’t be atheists.

Also, if religios just proved all of their extraordinary claims, then no one would need to call out how wrong about nearly everything they are.

Count the Religious threads in the religion forum? There is an litany of other forums for atheists to peruse. So why do atheists “feel the need” to linger about in a religious forum, and insist they change their beliefs to conform to yours?

I would hope that anyone who abandoned religion, who see it as silly, would have the stones to pick up other topics of interest, instead of keeping one foot in the circle of religion as it were.

i wish religious people would learn how to argue and make better points. I never abandoned religion. I never believed in gods.

I will never leave this discussion as long as people insist that their fantasies be accepted in spite of demonstrable facts.

Perhaps you don’t see the danger that religion and unfounded beliefs put on everyone? But it is a big open secret i’ll let you in on right now.

But the belief that religion is an existential threat has led to the persecution of religious people, and other forms of bigotry, like state-enforced atheism in Communist countries. Maybe you do not see anti-religious bigotry presents it’s own problems, but there is plenty of evidence that this is the case.