If faith was blind belief, why would it be of such importance?

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf
a reply to: new_here

There are atheists who enjoy denigrating and even persecuting the religious. It’s odd because instead of abandoning the topics of religion, god, church, etc. they sort of hold on to them and talk about them incessantly. They need religion as much as the religious do.

Count the number of religious threads and compare that to the amount of atheist threads here. It is very clear that the religious feel the need to promote their beliefs and the atheists are reacting to all of the silly things that religious people claim. If religious people didn’t insist that we believe them and try to convinve or force everyone to accept their bull#, there wouldn’t be atheists.

Also, if religios just proved all of their extraordinary claims, then no one would need to call out how wrong about nearly everything they are.

Count the Religious threads in the religion forum? There is an litany of other forums for atheists to peruse. So why do atheists “feel the need” to linger about in a religious forum, and insist they change their beliefs to conform to yours?

I would hope that anyone who abandoned religion, who see it as silly, would have the stones to pick up other topics of interest, instead of keeping one foot in the circle of religion as it were.

i wish religious people would learn how to argue and make better points. I never abandoned religion. I never believed in gods.

I will never leave this discussion as long as people insist that their fantasies be accepted in spite of demonstrable facts.

Perhaps you don’t see the danger that religion and unfounded beliefs put on everyone? But it is a big open secret i’ll let you in on right now.

But the belief that religion is an existential threat has led to the persecution of religious people, and other forms of bigotry, like state-enforced atheism in Communist countries. Maybe you do not see anti-religious bigotry presents it’s own problems, but there is plenty of evidence that this is the case.

All the more reason to base your beliefs on demonstrable facts and humanist values.

The governments that you describe killed people who put a greater value on their beliefs than on the government. You would be really hard pressed to find a modern equivalent in That is a political strategy that has nothing to do with humanism, secularism, or atheism. Those were not governments that pushed atheism but rather stateism. The government saw these religions as a threat to the state.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Woodcarver

Sorry, faith does do good. You are clearly not in the medical field, if you were you would know how foolish your statement is. In fact faith is part of assessment because of how valuable it is to long and short-term outcomes. No offense meant by this, but it is always better to comment on things you know.

"Faith" can indeed do some interesting things when dealing with human ailments.

That is also true of placebos though. It is the belief here that is important, not the underlying reality of the treatment.

The only on topic point is that Faith does indeed impact medical outcomes, which you agree with.

It has never been proven that faith and prayer have any significant reaction on medical issues. Here are a number of scientific studies.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Sorry, you are wrong. Stick to your own field and don't argue with medical professionals who know what they are talking about. Oh and don't ever source wiki.

DATA SYNTHESIS:
Religious intervention such as intercessory prayer may improve success rates of in vitro fertilization, decrease length of hospital stay and duration of fever in septic patients, increase immune function, improve rheumatoid arthritis, and reduce anxiety. Frequent attendance at religious services likely improves health behaviors. Moreover, prayer may decrease adverse outcomes in patients with cardiac disease.

CONCLUSIONS:
Religious activity may improve health outcomes.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Which is why spirituality and faith is part of actual education and assessment by medical professionals.

Recommendations of the Association of American Medical Colleges for a Curriculum on Spirituality*

Outcome goals
Students will be aware that spirituality, and cultural beliefs and practices, are important elements of the health and well-being of many patients.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

originally posted by: Mach2
Not faith, in and of itself. Like I posted earlier, it is usually benign.

Thank you for correcting your earlier error.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Woodcarver

Sorry, faith does do good. You are clearly not in the medical field, if you were you would know how foolish your statement is. In fact faith is part of assessment because of how valuable it is to long and short-term outcomes. No offense meant by this, but it is always better to comment on things you know.

"Faith" can indeed do some interesting things when dealing with human ailments.

That is also true of placebos though. It is the belief here that is important, not the underlying reality of the treatment.

The only on topic point is that Faith does indeed impact medical outcomes, which you agree with.

It has never been proven that faith and prayer have any significant reaction on medical issues. Here are a number of scientific studies.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Sorry, you are wrong. Stick to your own field and don't argue with medical professionals who know what they are talking about. Oh and don't ever source wiki.

DATA SYNTHESIS:
Religious intervention such as intercessory prayer may improve success rates of in vitro fertilization, decrease length of hospital stay and duration of fever in septic patients, increase immune function, improve rheumatoid arthritis, and reduce anxiety. Frequent attendance at religious services likely improves health behaviors. Moreover, prayer may decrease adverse outcomes in patients with cardiac disease.

CONCLUSIONS:
Religious activity may improve health outcomes.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Which is why spirituality and faith is part of actual education and assessment by medical professionals.

Recommendations of the Association of American Medical Colleges for a Curriculum on Spirituality*

Outcome goals
Students will be aware that spirituality, and cultural beliefs and practices, are important elements of the health and well-being of many patients.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

I didn’t source wiki. Man you are dense. The wiki was a jumping point to all of those studies. You really need to up your game.


Did you read the studies? There were 9 of them. The entire study. All of the findings are there for your reading.

originally posted by: Mach2
Who made you the Czar of what's "on topic"?

The OP is the Czar. A discussion about whether faith is the same as a placebo as far as medical outcomes is not on topic, and not even you think it is.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Woodcarver

Sorry, faith does do good. You are clearly not in the medical field, if you were you would know how foolish your statement is. In fact faith is part of assessment because of how valuable it is to long and short-term outcomes. No offense meant by this, but it is always better to comment on things you know.

"Faith" can indeed do some interesting things when dealing with human ailments.

That is also true of placebos though. It is the belief here that is important, not the underlying reality of the treatment.

The only on topic point is that Faith does indeed impact medical outcomes, which you agree with.

It has never been proven that faith and prayer have any significant reaction on medical issues. Here are a number of scientific studies.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Sorry, you are wrong. Stick to your own field and don't argue with medical professionals who know what they are talking about. Oh and don't ever source wiki.

DATA SYNTHESIS:
Religious intervention such as intercessory prayer may improve success rates of in vitro fertilization, decrease length of hospital stay and duration of fever in septic patients, increase immune function, improve rheumatoid arthritis, and reduce anxiety. Frequent attendance at religious services likely improves health behaviors. Moreover, prayer may decrease adverse outcomes in patients with cardiac disease.

CONCLUSIONS:
Religious activity may improve health outcomes.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Which is why spirituality and faith is part of actual education and assessment by medical professionals.

Recommendations of the Association of American Medical Colleges for a Curriculum on Spirituality*

Outcome goals
Students will be aware that spirituality, and cultural beliefs and practices, are important elements of the health and well-being of many patients.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

how about you post a study that shows that prayer works?

Are you depressed, woodcarver?

Violent?

Asocial?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Woodcarver

Sorry, faith does do good. You are clearly not in the medical field, if you were you would know how foolish your statement is. In fact faith is part of assessment because of how valuable it is to long and short-term outcomes. No offense meant by this, but it is always better to comment on things you know.

"Faith" can indeed do some interesting things when dealing with human ailments.

That is also true of placebos though. It is the belief here that is important, not the underlying reality of the treatment.

The only on topic point is that Faith does indeed impact medical outcomes, which you agree with.

It has never been proven that faith and prayer have any significant reaction on medical issues. Here are a number of scientific studies.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Sorry, you are wrong. Stick to your own field and don't argue with medical professionals who know what they are talking about. Oh and don't ever source wiki.

DATA SYNTHESIS:
Religious intervention such as intercessory prayer may improve success rates of in vitro fertilization, decrease length of hospital stay and duration of fever in septic patients, increase immune function, improve rheumatoid arthritis, and reduce anxiety. Frequent attendance at religious services likely improves health behaviors. Moreover, prayer may decrease adverse outcomes in patients with cardiac disease.

CONCLUSIONS:
Religious activity may improve health outcomes.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Which is why spirituality and faith is part of actual education and assessment by medical professionals.

Recommendations of the Association of American Medical Colleges for a Curriculum on Spirituality*

Outcome goals
Students will be aware that spirituality, and cultural beliefs and practices, are important elements of the health and well-being of many patients.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

I didn’t source wiki. Man you are dense. The wiki was a jumping point to all of those studies. You really need to up your game.

You sourced wiki, talking about "intercessory prayer", not faith. I sourced actual studies and quoted their conclusions. Evidence Based Practice shows faith is an important factor in patient outcomes, that's a simple fact. You should stop arguing the point when you are wrong.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf
a reply to: new_here

There are atheists who enjoy denigrating and even persecuting the religious. It’s odd because instead of abandoning the topics of religion, god, church, etc. they sort of hold on to them and talk about them incessantly. They need religion as much as the religious do.

Count the number of religious threads and compare that to the amount of atheist threads here. It is very clear that the religious feel the need to promote their beliefs and the atheists are reacting to all of the silly things that religious people claim. If religious people didn’t insist that we believe them and try to convinve or force everyone to accept their bull#, there wouldn’t be atheists.

Also, if religios just proved all of their extraordinary claims, then no one would need to call out how wrong about nearly everything they are.

Count the Religious threads in the religion forum? There is an litany of other forums for atheists to peruse. So why do atheists “feel the need” to linger about in a religious forum, and insist they change their beliefs to conform to yours?

I would hope that anyone who abandoned religion, who see it as silly, would have the stones to pick up other topics of interest, instead of keeping one foot in the circle of religion as it were.

i wish religious people would learn how to argue and make better points. I never abandoned religion. I never believed in gods.

I will never leave this discussion as long as people insist that their fantasies be accepted in spite of demonstrable facts.

Perhaps you don’t see the danger that religion and unfounded beliefs put on everyone? But it is a big open secret i’ll let you in on right now.

But the belief that religion is an existential threat has led to the persecution of religious people, and other forms of bigotry, like state-enforced atheism in Communist countries. Maybe you do not see anti-religious bigotry presents it’s own problems, but there is plenty of evidence that this is the case.

All the more reason to base your beliefs on demonstrable facts and humanist values.

The governments that you describe killed people who put a greater value on their beliefs than on the government. You would be really hard pressed to find a modern equivalent in That is a political strategy that has nothing to do with humanism, secularism, or atheism. Those were not governments that pushed atheism but rather stateism.

Well that’s the point: any ideology, including atheism, can become fundamentalist in practice.

They did indeed push atheism, as evidenced by the Albanian constitution:

“The state recognizes no religion, and supports atheistic propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialistic world outlook in people.”

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Mach2
a reply to: new_here

A big difference is that belief in aliens, or esp is not an inherrent danger to others, while religion is responsibe for countless millions of death, and immeasurable suffering.

So you are claiming faith is an inherent danger?

Not faith, in and of itself. Like I posted earlier, it is usually benign.

The probkems come when organized religion leverage the faith of individuals to affect a sinister outcome.

Some christian religions, particularly Catholicism, have, in the past done some evil things. Fortunately they have evolved into peaceful non political entities.

A contemporary example of religion using faith to institutionalize evil would be some of the Islamic sects.

Before i get slammed for bashing Islam, let me say I try not to paint any group with a broad brush. The fact is, though, that violence is condoned and even incited by some, in the name of Allah.

I am 200% with you on this.

why don’t you believe in Islam? Real question.

Ok, I'm not going to win any friends on either side with this post but here goes:

(Fair Warning: This reads like I'm saying it's proven Fact, but this is my personal belief and in no way meant to sway you or anyone to believe what I believe. If anyone blasts me for it, I love you as a fellow human, but you are mean-spirited...)

No one religion has it right. God exists, but our finite minds cannot fully perceive, just as we cannot see the full spectrum of color, or hear the full spectrum of sound. But in a much, much more profound sense. All thru the ages, people have caught a glimpse and sought to define and rationalize and understand Him/Her/It. Whole religions sprang up around small nuggets of Truth. But just like the kid game of "telephone" the Truth nuggets got lost in the ritual. Some people followed blindly without seeking to connect to God for themselves, as the original messenger sought, not to mention ill-willed people hi-jacking the religion for selfish reasons (like control, wealth, power.) It muddied the waters until the Truth was lost under it all. Basically, because of the very nature of mankind to dominate, any given religion inevitably/eventually suffers the bastardization of a true Spiritual connection to God.

The Bible, the Koran, the Hebrew what-not book, are all a collection of writings from back when. Some were recording the history of a people, and slanted to include "Yahweh," some included fables and myths that held truth but weren't meant to be taken factually, and some really were sincere attempts to put into words the experiences of individuals communing with God. Men decided what to keep and what to ignore, so with the Bible we have a mish-mash of ancient writings and some of it is WTH and some quite inspiring.

Where does that leave us? No God? Or man's failed attempt to record/define God? The answer is Spiritual Discernment. If anybody believes 100% what comes out of a preachers mouth, they are putting their faith in a man and not God. People get it wrong. For various reasons. If anybody seeks in earnest-- thru meditation, thru listening to their Conscience (ie: Holy Spirit), thru asking for Wisdom, to name a few-- glimpses of The Divine are likely to occur. "Seek and ye shall find. Ask and it shall be given unto you." This is what this Truth nugget is talking about. God is alway out there streaming like an electrical current. It's up to us to plug in. We can use a religious text as a springboard, or a sermon, but ultimately if we're not using Spiritual Discernment to seek the pearls of Truth, we're not doing it right.

TL;DR Islam, as a religion, is a bastardization of the true Spiritual connection to God.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Woodcarver

Sorry, faith does do good. You are clearly not in the medical field, if you were you would know how foolish your statement is. In fact faith is part of assessment because of how valuable it is to long and short-term outcomes. No offense meant by this, but it is always better to comment on things you know.

"Faith" can indeed do some interesting things when dealing with human ailments.

That is also true of placebos though. It is the belief here that is important, not the underlying reality of the treatment.

The only on topic point is that Faith does indeed impact medical outcomes, which you agree with.

It has never been proven that faith and prayer have any significant reaction on medical issues. Here are a number of scientific studies.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Sorry, you are wrong. Stick to your own field and don't argue with medical professionals who know what they are talking about. Oh and don't ever source wiki.

DATA SYNTHESIS:
Religious intervention such as intercessory prayer may improve success rates of in vitro fertilization, decrease length of hospital stay and duration of fever in septic patients, increase immune function, improve rheumatoid arthritis, and reduce anxiety. Frequent attendance at religious services likely improves health behaviors. Moreover, prayer may decrease adverse outcomes in patients with cardiac disease.

CONCLUSIONS:
Religious activity may improve health outcomes.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Which is why spirituality and faith is part of actual education and assessment by medical professionals.

Recommendations of the Association of American Medical Colleges for a Curriculum on Spirituality*

Outcome goals
Students will be aware that spirituality, and cultural beliefs and practices, are important elements of the health and well-being of many patients.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

how about you post a study that shows that prayer works?

Is the topic discussing "intercessory prayer" or faith?

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Mach2

While i realize "faith" and religion are not the same thing, they are inseparable.

To you, perhaps. To many others as well. And horrid things have been done in the name of religion, yes.
But faith in God is a stand-alone concept. No 'religion' required. You could grow up on an island away from civilization and still commune with the Higher Power, without anyone saying a word about It. Religion is man's bastardization of faith, as a means of controlling the masses. Jesus didn't come to start Christianity. At all.

You are still relying on faith that you are not just talking to yourself. And as soon as someone else shows up, they will disagree on some point of your claim.

If I am just talking to myself... who is this wise Self who advises me? How do YOU know that what you call your Conscience is not the Holy Spirit. Does the name really matter that much, if the result is the same? Why reject the concept of a Higher Consciousness in the universe so vehemently? Is it fear? I'm asking seriously, not combatively.

Hola Nuevo Aqui!
Long time no see! Hope you are well.

How do you know that the holy spirit that you are communing with, is not just another aspect of your complex mind?
Or perhaps it is the hive-mind consciousness of the hundreds of trillions of gut bacteria, whom are directly connected to your brain via the vagas-nerve?

Don't nobody know, me thinks.

Don't nobody know nothin.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Woodcarver

You misunderstand. Faith is the certainty of the existence of God.

By definition, you cannot have faith and certainty about the same thing. They are oxymorons.

I am certain that the sun will come up tommorrow

I am certain that there is a god.

The first statement is one based on observable and expected outcomes. It is not a faith claim.

The second is a faith based claim with no demonstrable value. It is used to show your conviction or the value that you place on the claim.

Hi Woodcarver.

Nobody can possibly know what might happen in the future, making the sun idea an example of faith, no?
The simulation could end; Earth or the sun get destroyed; any number of probabilities, but not 100% certainty.

Don't think that anyone can know that there is no god neither. No certainty there, just faith again, no?

Anyways: it appears as examples of faith to me, but don't have faith in my ideas... LoL

a reply to: Nothin

The way gut flora interact with the human brain is awesome. You might find it interesting to look into the language of bacteria. Thank me later (if you find that stuff interesting).

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Woodcarver

You misunderstand. Faith is the certainty of the existence of God.

By definition, you cannot have faith and certainty about the same thing. They are oxymorons.

I am certain that the sun will come up tommorrow

I am certain that there is a god.

The first statement is one based on observable and expected outcomes. It is not a faith claim.

The second is a faith based claim with no demonstrable value. It is used to show your conviction or the value that you place on the claim.

Hi Woodcarver.

Nobody can possibly know what might happen in the future, making the sun idea an example of faith, no?
The simulation could end; Earth or the sun get destroyed; any number of probabilities, but not 100% certainty.

Don't think that anyone can know that there is no god neither. No certainty there, just faith again, no?

Anyways: it appears as examples of faith to me, but don't have faith in my ideas... LoL

We cannot prove there is not teapot a revolving around Jupiter. But I think any reasonable person can conclude with 100% certainty that there isn’t a teapot revolving around Jupiter.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: new_here

That is not what religion means or is though.

I don't wish to argue semantics with you, my friend. Define it as you wish, but in any case, the topic is Faith and not Religion.

Just to be clear, I'm just talking about my own personal faith and connection to God. I'm not attempting to tell others to believe as I do. It is MY Truth.

I'm always curious about those who subscribe to the 'religion' of Atheism, though. How they seek to denigrate and insult those who speak of their personal faith. The topic was posed, I said my peace (which included a criticism of organized religion) and those of the Atheist faith pile on with disparaging remarks and attempts to persuade me to their own belief system, when I've done nothing of the sort. What gives? Again I ask, why does my personal Faith vex you so? "The lady Athiest doth protest too much!"

What's wrong with respecting my right to my own beliefs while saying, "This is the way I see it..." ???

But if it is only your truth, and you know it is not reasonable or even matches what other people who make similar claims say, then why share it? Or even why accept it? You know very well that others make claims that you disagree with. This is the problem with faith. It can justify any belief. So why rely on it?

What about the possibility that she saw a thread about faith, and commented here with the hope of sharing the joy her faith brings her, with like-minded people, only to end-up being dogged by folks whom reject her ideas?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Nothin

The way gut flora interact with the human brain is awesome. You might find it interesting to look into the language of bacteria. Thank me later (if you find that stuff interesting).

Thanks in advance... LoL.
An ATS member also mentioned to me before, that the role of mitochondria may also potentially be huge.

And thanks for being nice. Is this a newer-gentler you?

originally posted by: TheSteppenwolf

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Woodcarver

You misunderstand. Faith is the certainty of the existence of God.

By definition, you cannot have faith and certainty about the same thing. They are oxymorons.

I am certain that the sun will come up tommorrow

I am certain that there is a god.

The first statement is one based on observable and expected outcomes. It is not a faith claim.

The second is a faith based claim with no demonstrable value. It is used to show your conviction or the value that you place on the claim.

Hi Woodcarver.

Nobody can possibly know what might happen in the future, making the sun idea an example of faith, no?
The simulation could end; Earth or the sun get destroyed; any number of probabilities, but not 100% certainty.

Don't think that anyone can know that there is no god neither. No certainty there, just faith again, no?

Anyways: it appears as examples of faith to me, but don't have faith in my ideas... LoL

We cannot prove there is not teapot a revolving around Jupiter. But I think any reasonable person can conclude with 100% certainty that there isn’t a teapot revolving around Jupiter.

Sorry: don't see it that way.
How is it possible to be certain of something that is uncertain?

a reply to: Sookiechacha

No. Atheists don't believe in your "God", or any "God" that has been hypothetically presented to them. Atheists have an absence of belief, not a belief in absence.

Now that is a good example of double talk. Tell me, how in the world can you have an absence of anything without first having something to have its absence? You can't have the absence of nothing because if there is nothing then there is no absence. You have either belief or its opposite disbelief and if you disbelieve in a god of any sort then that is your belief to disbelieve. How so? Because neither belief or disbelief can be presented to the five senses of your understanding.

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Nothin

The way gut flora interact with the human brain is awesome. You might find it interesting to look into the language of bacteria. Thank me later (if you find that stuff interesting).

Thanks in advance... LoL.
An ATS member also mentioned to me before, that the role of mitochondria may also potentially be huge.

And thanks for being nice. Is this a newer-gentler you?

Nope, same me as always. If someone comes at me as a fool without an appreciation for my position they will be met as a fool. If someone comes at me with a difference of opinion and appreciates others such as myself think differently and they are interested in a discussion of the differences they will be met with true interest.