What's in this Green New Deal?

a reply to: whywhynot

I suppose I'm living in a bubble. TVA power production has its advantages. TVA is a non-profit government agency that runs like a private enterprise, one of the precious few government operations that is successful. Our grid, from the power plants to the main high-tensile transmission lines, to the local supply lines is pretty new. On top of that, we have some of the lowest electric costs in the nation.

I have to admit, I am constantly surprised by how easily some other places seem to lose power for extended periods. We get power blinks regularly, about one or two a week, but they are typically less than 60 seconds. Once in a while the power will be off for up to two hours. Anything beyond that is something major with the grid.

Even during the tornado outbreak of 2011, when we were out of power for a week, the problem wasn't with our lines... they were ready within 24 hours. The problem was the entire grid connecting the main source was ripped away by a direct hit, and the backup plant also suffered a direct hit. It took a week to get the main plant back on line, and they wound up decommissioning the backup plant due to damage.

TheRedneck

a reply to: CriticalStinker

The problem with much of what she is proposing is she's trying to use the government to dictate the free market.

That's where I am as well... government control of the free market rarely works.

I was driving a 2002 Buick LeSabre not very long ago, and got 26 mpg out of a 3.8 liter V6 with plenty of power. Thanks to an idiot kid running a traffic light, I switched over to a 2009 Buick Lucerne. It's 7 years newer, smaller (my biggest complaint; I'm a full-size guy and I need a full-size car), and has a smaller motor with less power. It also gets 23 mpg instead of 26. Why? Pollution control standards increased in those 7 years. That's not market driven; it is government driven. The market wants larger cars with better mileage... the government wants to make the cars more expensive by regulating every molecule of exhaust that comes out of the exhaust pipe.

I understand European cars get much better mileage than ours do because they have less restrictive regulations (someone from Europe feel free to correct me if I am wrong). I'm not talking about more pollution, just easier regulations.

At least this mess has absolutely no chance in Hades of ever making it even to the President's desk... but it underscores who does and who does not have the best interests of the public at heart.

TheRedneck

IOW, it's a trojan horse for socialism like usual.

a reply to: scraedtosleep

Because most of the green tech we currently have is insufficient to our needs as a whole nation. If an area has the natural features to allow hydro ... GREAT! Go for it! That's awesome, but much of the nation isn't in that boat. And you cannot build enough hydro in those places to cover all of the nation.

Wind and solar are useful for their niches, but they *are* niches, not mainstays. Why? Wind and solar are unreliable. The sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow and when it does, it might blow too much. They're useful for their place, use them as warranted, but they aren't going to replace fossil fuels either.

And electric is just fossil fuel in another form that makes people feel better about themselves because they aren't directly pumping gas, and *it's* less efficient in its current form, not to mention the toxic effects of all the mining for rare earths and battery manufacture.

What you on the left fail to understand is that we on the right get that green stuff is good ... for what it does, but what it does isn't going to cover nearly all of what a modern, technological society needs. Until and unless there is a massive new advance in energy production, this is where we are. And you cannot force that innovation through government decree like this New Deal proposes to.

a reply to: ketsuko

Thank you! That saved me the trouble of typing out a post.

TheRedneck

This part here has me scratching my head some:

eliminating greenhouse gas emissions from the manufacturing, agricultural and other industries, including by investing in local-scale agriculture in communities across the country;

Is there more detail on what they are talking about here?

"eliminating greenhouse gas emissions" means completely removing and agricultural includes farms and ranches.

Uhm....animals (including us) emit plenty of greenhouse gases in the form of CO2 and methane. "Eliminating" those would have to mean the removal of said animals.

So is that what they are saying? No more meat. No more dairy products such as milk, cream, cheese, etc. No more eggs. No more wool. No more insulin for diabetics..... is this what they are saying?

Can someone please also educate on how one manufactures products without emission of gases (thinking things like steel, plastics, etc) ?

Or are they saying that there will no longer be manufacturing plants? (and no, don't say "reducing" emissions as while I think that's a good idea, they specifically said "eliminating" which does NOT mean the same thing.).

a reply to: TheRedneck

I can take you to towns that no longer exist here in Ohio. 20 minute drive west from downtown Cincinnati and you would swear we were in the foothills of Appalachia or the Ozarks, two minutes later, civilization just like that. No bears or wolves nearby but plenty of coyotes, bobcats (won’t see them) and foxes (both silver and red). Beaver, quail, turkey...you can pretty much name it. And this isn’t even remotely considered the backwoods of Ohio.

Ohio is a weird place. But what really makes this a technological dead zone is the high population of German Baptists that are my neighbors. But they use the computer to home school and some have televisions.

a reply to: Carcharadon

That's the point. Starvation of one's political enemies is one of the hallmarks of communism.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Phase out animal ag and/or replace with entoculture (insect farming) for our protein needs? Because we all know that's what the world's technocratic elite think we need to do -- stop eating larger ag animals and either go entirely vegetarian/vegan or start eating bugs. They may be thinking we'll all have cloned meat too, so vat stuff.

In any case, the days where you could easily grow your own will be mostly done.

originally posted by: Metallicus
If Trump agreed to the entire thing would they still vote for it?

Honest question.[/quote.

No... No they wouldn't. So maybe it's exactly what he should do.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Any time I hear a politician talking about agriculture, it scares me. I live in a farming community; i am well aware of how specialized farmers are. Politicians seem to have this tendency to think that everyone lives the way they do, and that would make efficient agriculture impossible.

If/when you have the time (and inclination) would you expand on this for me? Skool me please??? I know about gardening on a small scale -- like home gardens.

But I'm a big proponent of increasing local agriculture -- from homes and schools to community gardens -- so what kind of things should I be wary of? My purpose is to increase self-sufficiency and resourcefulness in individuals and communities. But I know govt critters can ruin anything!

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: ketsuko
I believe they said they want to eliminate fossil fuels and go entirely green. How do they replace the petroleum products we use in everything? Can you imagine medicine without plastics? And that's just one thing ... what about so many other sectors?

You mean like battery production?

Heh.

Is the hemp Iphone going to be the next awesome fad?

What are we going to do with all these electric cars with no tires?

I guess plumbing will go back to the Copper Age...

and no more windows.

Or shielded electric cables...

At least we won't have computers anymore, so we won't get online and bitch about it...

Because we won't have fiber optic.

you forgot no petroleum also means no more WIND TURBINES. so much for their "green" energy production. it's bad enough that those wind turbine blades are self destructing much quicker than was expected as it is. i wonder how much plastics and other petroleum based products are involved in solar energy? not just the batteries, but the solar collectors and solar panels themselves? then there are the electric cars. can't have them without all the petroleum products used instead of metals to make them light enough to be powered by electricity. or how about those mandated plastic/Styrofoam safety bumpers they have required on all new cars for years? because steel bumpers were too unsafe.

but this is the type of thing that happens when idiots without a clue are governed by feelings and green optics, rather than logic and reason are put in charge. all these little things are not taken into account.

a reply to: Boadicea

If/when you have the time (and inclination) would you expand on this for me? Skool me please??? I know about gardening on a small scale -- like home gardens.

Unfortunately, home gardening techniques do not scale very well.

The typical life of a farmer starts before sun-up. As soon as there is enough light during the growing season, they have to be in the field working. Yes, they have huge equipment, but someone still has to drive it. Their yearly schedule runs something along the lines of: prepare the ground before the temperature warms enough for their crop (plow, fertilize, disc); planting; weeding (typically by using a chemical weeder like Roundup); harvest; plan for next year. All that big equipment tends to break down a lot under continuous use, so any spare time they usually put into doing maintenance and repairs, often until well after dark. That's the only way they can keep up. The sun is their clock.

And of course, there's the rainy days when they can't get into the fields. Those are also spent on maintenance and repair of their equipment, as well as actually taking time to spend with their families. Weekends mean little to nothing (except for church). A farmer's rest day is the day when it's raining too hard to get in the fields and every piece of equipment is in perfect operating condition. Then they get to spend some time with their family.

The amount of assets a farmer uses is astronomical. A home gardener might have a tiller. They use hoes and shovels, maybe a wheelbarrow if the garden is big. A farmer can have literally millions of dollars worth of equipment, in addition to millions of dollars of land. They make pretty good most years, but a lot of that is eaten up with repairs and supplies... leaving just enough to raise a family on. The financing is so extreme, as a matter of fact, that most have trusts set up to handle it.

I have a cousin who owns thousands of acres and leases more than he owns. His has three truck scales on his property, and several huge equipment drops where he stores the equipment. He hires several work hands full time and pays them around the calendar; there's always something for them to do. In return, he brings home enough to comfortably raise a family... in a good year. In a bad year, the trust can actually lose money, which is about the same as someone living off savings and loans. All this to work 16 hour days of hard labor, taking days off only when Mother Nature and the workload permits.

That is why the privately-owned farms are disappearing. Less and less people are willing to put up so much and work so hard for so little. I have asked my cousin why he does it, and he will just shrug and say "it's who I am." He loves the freedom from management and the country life. As long as he can make a decent living, the money means little to him.

But I'm a big proponent of increasing local agriculture -- from homes and schools to community gardens -- so what kind of things should I be wary of? My purpose is to increase self-sufficiency and resourcefulness in individuals and communities. But I know govt critters can ruin anything!

The biggest thing to look out for is any government interference. The whole idea of agriculture is based around freedom from that sort of thing. If I grow a garden, I am free from the demands of the grocery stores on my budget. I can eat squash, okry, melons, maters, carrots, greens, taters, all year and not spend a dime on them.

I at one time had the idea of starting a communal garden in this area, for those who didn't live in the country. My idea, and you can feel free to use this if you desire, was to provide people with a small tract of land already prepared for gardening and allow them to use it as their own for that purpose.

I planned on setting up a few acres of garden surrounded and separated into small lots by portable fencing. Once a year in the spring, a local farmer could be paid to plow, fertilize, and till the soil, then the fences could be erected. People could then lease lots for use as gardens. They supply the seeds (a secondary market if you wanted to sell seeds as well), they supply the labor, and they can either supply their equipment or lease it from the landowner. At a certain date a few weeks past the end of the growing season, the leases expire, the fences come down, and the land is plowed under again to start preparing for the next season.

You might want to make a list of what types of plants you will allow. For instance, kudzu would ruin the whole thing; it takes over everything and is virtually immortal. You could also offer classes on how to grow a garden; that likely seems second nature to you, but to a lot of people they have no idea how to put a seed in the ground.

TheRedneck