Why should I be loyal to my country?

a reply to: johnb

Is that our culture of 'pay no tax if your a big company/ filthy rich', the bringing freedom to countries all over the mid east - how many millions are we directly responsible for killing now?, pillaging smaller countries for all their natural resources, staggering amounts of waste and pollution produced daily.......

Yeah a culture i can be proud of - NOT!!

Not seen any reasons for anybody to be proud of their country yet unless of course you are proud of the above

No, that's not your culture. That's your government.

Simple answer: You shouldn't be.

Not so simple answer: It is entirely up to you to decide who and what you feel loyalty towards. Most people have no say in what countries they live in, their parents bring them into the world in a particular place and that's that. In my opinion, that's not a reason to feel loyalty. You should feel loyalty towards your country if you agree with it's politics and ideals. Being loyal to something for the simple fact that you're told that you should be would make you a robot, by definition.

I'm not loyal to my country. I'm happy that I live here, but I'm not loyal. It's the objective truth that there are countries that have policies closer to my ideals than my home country. I agree more with those countries than my own on several major policies.
That doesn't mean I "need to leave" or anything the staunchly loyal will tell you. Like I said, I like living here. I just agree more with other countries on some things. That isn't a crime, and isn't a terrible way to feel.
An (admittedly simple) example would be: Imagine I'm having an argument with my immediate family, and my wife is involved in the argument. When everyone states their opinions/beliefs, I realize that I agree with my sister more than my wife. That doesn't mean I'm going to divorce my wife, I just don't agree with her on this issue.

That's how I view country pride/loyalty. It doesn't make sense, unless you agree with the ideals of the country, to be loyal to them.

This doesn't mean that I'm suggesting you or I should become spies and try to ruin our countries. I would never do that, I don't hate my country. I'm just not loyal to it, as we disagree on a lot.

a reply to: DIEGLOKE2
I agree. We should instead be loyal to corporations only.
I pledge my allegiance to BP Shell. Or maybe Coke.
Sorry bro, don’t care about you, I’m living in a Budweiser nation. Ok bro? We’re attacking Pabst Blue Ribbon at 0800 hours. Get ready

originally posted by: DIEGLOKE2
Why does being born in the UK mean I should be loyal?

Feel free to move away if you like. Or stay, so long as you don't leech off the country that you make your home.

... and cheer up.

originally posted by: TinySickTears
a reply to: DIEGLOKE2

I'm with you.
Same question about national pride.

I am not proud to be an American. I am fortunate and I am happy but not proud. That is reserved for accomplishments.

It's just something I don't understand.

This. Pride in something you had no hand in is akin to stolen (historical) valor at best, and being a true sheeple at worst. Or the other way around if you prefer. They're both sucktacularly lowbrow ways to make yourself feel good.

I have no allegiance with any dirt I happen to reside on, it's just DIRT. Saying one must be "loyal" to the defined parameters of a patch of dirt they live on is pretty damn antiquated.

My country or government have a relationship based on rules and institutions I had no say in and did not agree to.

They do things and I pay taxes to fund those things. Many of those things I don't agree with but I find it anyway.

Welcome to the machine

Therein lies the rub. Everyone's a slave to some machine somewhere, countries don't pay for & run themselves on glitter farts & kitten kisses.

And when you think about it that way, nobody's really any different, or better, than the next guy/country. They're all just legal & social constructs to facilitate an existence somewhere on the planet for the people living with in the parameters of their particular patch of dirt.

a reply to: DIEGLOKE2


Well I would say you have a crisis about loyalty, and I would offer what Mark Twain said about patriotism, a term closely associated with loyalty.

Twain said that patriotism means supporting your country all of the time, and its government only when it deserves it.

Food for thought, good luck.

a reply to: DIEGLOKE2

Sounds familar, I remember back in the 70s or 80s a guy tried something similar out in Africa, I could tell a joke about it but the punch line is too long.

#No Martian KoolAid

may I suggest that you find a new country that will take you and treat you kindly before you screw your own native country?? every country is crap in one way or another, but at least it's your country recognizing you as it's citizen, probably granting you some basic rights. in case you haven't noticed, immigrants can sometimes be treated rather crappy?
screw you own country and well, you get to either live with the blowback like every one else, or you end up being a person without a country, or at least one that might not be worth living in or worse one that won't want you back.

No answer. There is no single answer to your question. I appreciate your quest, however, allow me to suggest a seperate line of focus.
Consider the people and things directly surrounding you that ARE within your influence and the people and activities that you CAN affect and that you CAN rely upon for help if needed. These will be the areas to focus your well deserved loyalty.
Now.. because these are the areas you can use your particular abilities to their best outcomes. The bigger government S# #t is out of our control. So don't waste your precious time on it.
Unless your values align in life or death, etc.
Also consider...
There are many layers upwards and downwards on the scale of where to place your loyalty, choose your battles carefully. Think critically. Think logically. Use patience.
Use your loyalty wisely.
And finally,
be true to your own self first. If you ran the world, who would you follow?

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Lysergic

originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: DIEGLOKE2

At least you get to wait in line for free health care. I get to wait in line for a $3,000 bill.

9 month wait vs 45 min wait to see a specialist, hmmmm.

Either way, I got 5 bucks on this gofundme once its set up.

I can wait 9 months if it saves me $3 G’s.

Having to wait 9 months to see a specialist could cost one their life
I can say that with absolute truth.

originally posted by: DIEGLOKE2
Ok....... first of all for those that are patriots of whatever country they are from I am not critising you. But why should I be?

Big question I have been asking myself in recent months due to how miserable my governments made me the past year.

Why does being born in the UK mean I should be loyal?

Why do I owe my alligance to a family of rich elites or the corrupt bastard politicians that run the country?

The people who run this country or any western country from the UK, USA or Germany and everywhere don't give a # about us little people. They don't know or care we exist. Our country's would screw us over in a heart beat if it benefited the people in power.

The only people I feel I should be loyal too are myself and my family.

I consider myself a "patriot" for what it's worth. Not because of the leaders, Uncle Sam or apple pie. It's the land itself, the rivers, the mountains and valleys I've played in. It's my small farm and little town. Yes my country has a very mixed and shady past. I am a history buff and prefer reading direct documents from the past. But at the same has developed many benefits to the entire planet.
The problem with most 1st world countries is divide and conquer politics and the fact we are so comfortable our biggest issues are being offended by stupid words and actions (left and right) and having our coffee order screwed up. Being poor might be tough but the poorest people here are better off that their counterparts in any 3rd world country. Lighten up man, The idiots in charge leading us further into madness don't make your country. Your family neighbors and local community do. Maybe become more involved with that. You'll see your country isn't as bad as you think. Sorry about your lame knife and gun laws. I may be a poor hillbilly but at least I can shoot a deer or two to put food in the freezer.(lame attempt at humor)

originally posted by: DIEGLOKE2

originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: DIEGLOKE2

Even our free healthcare sucks in the UK.

I disagree. I have used the NHS many many times and so have my family. It might not be perfect, it might take a little time to get seen, but appreciate while it's there because soon it might not be.

I am loyal to my country to a point. It wavers from time to time depending how I feel.

a reply to: rhynouk

Not when you have to pay the same doctor by going private to be seen straight away while if you wait on the NHS (having paid your taxes and NICs already) you might have to wait months to be seen as I already said by the SAME doctor. That as DG2 stated "sucks" big time and is a con artist stunt by the medics.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

What has the NHS got to do with loyalty to country?
I just run with whichever is the biggest gang in charge and right now for me that is the island I live on, Britain.
No offence Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, the Falklands and other British overseas territories I've forgotten but I am loyal to the fight them on the beaches mantra. I live on a cliff by a beach and I'm loyal to the people with shared common values as me who share this big island.

I will say to other UK territories in need that I'd cover your back before foreign nations every time, but I'd expect that reciprocated.

EDIT
...and as an FYI my 'loyalty' to people goes from UK territories to mates like Canada Australia NZ and similar.
I back Canada for example in the current trade disputes with the US, go Canada haha!

You always have to pick a team, I know mine, and I know my allies.
The US people reading this don't get the wrong idea, you are the hardest gang in town of course, it explains why my gang needs to be mates with the rest of the world as well as you.

a reply to: DIEGLOKE2

I feel no allegiance to the Royal Family or the elites that run this country.

But I am a proud Englishman and am proud to be British.

I would fight until my dying breath if these islands and union of ours was ever threatened.
I feel a deep and passionate sense of allegiance to the everyday, ordinary men and women who are the people who really made this country of ours great and are to this day its greatest asset.

The British people are a strong, proud and resilient people and should never be underestimated.

a reply to: Freeborn
Agreed.
I love being British, it would be the best country in the world to live in if it was summer all year.
There is a British 'thing' with our people and it has # all to do with skin colour.
So glad I was born in Britain.

Seems like I was spot on with my thoughts on tribalism. The Commonwealth opens a whole different discussion as well. I would consider loyalty to that before anything other than country. Not that they are at odds.

a reply to: DIEGLOKE2

Even our free healthcare sucks in the UK.

No it doesn't.

Could, and should be better.....but what has that got to do with 'loyalty to your country'?

Every country sucks....... I'd sell the UK out to Russia for the right price,

Go ask all those people desperate to get to the UK and other European countries just how much we 'suck'.
These words say far more about you than anything I could offer in response.

I am British born and should be entitled as a right to live here with whoever I marry.

I'd agree with that, obviously within reason.

It seems that you have issues with our governments....so do most of us, doesn't affect my loyalty to my fellow countrymen.

a reply to: intrepid

It is tribalism yes.
Honestly my backing of Canada over the US is inherited for sure, completely influenced by indoctrination.
The UK backs the mates up first, and keeps the super power chilled out and friendly.

EDIT
I'm biased though because I have family of a few generations in Canada

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

The NHS thing was brought up somewhere and as good as the service is pushing people to the back of the queue when they paid their taxes is just wrong when somebody is private but it's the same doctor who will suddenly find the time to deal with them straight away while pushing NHS people to the waiting list................. However the NHS is still amazing and something that we should fight for if nothing else.

In many ways I do agree with the OP, when I was young vey patriotic to the Britain but this has waned over the years. Firstly due to seeing your efforts at work taxed to death while others seem to consume your wealth in the civil services. Any wealth creator in our country will get fed up with the system after decades of watching ones sweat and toil get stolen by the wealth devourers I the councils, civil services, government workers, etc. Don't get me wrong these people are very necessary but the way they suck your life away and come out of it with proper holiday / sick pay, unmatchable pensions and retirement age compared to the wealth creators in the private (slave) sector will after many years leave you disolutioned with the system and hence a decline in one's loyalty.

When it comes to overseas British territories totally agree, loyalty to them is just as ever it was. If they want to remain part of Britain then loyalty to them from us is unquestioned. Same goes to our cousains in Aus, South Africa, New Zealand, Canada, Jamaica. They are part of our culture and our imperial offspring. They laid down their lives to defeat our enemies in Europe, we owe them one / two being honest about it.

When it comes to loyalty to the state in foreign adventures then no way, especially the crazy stuff in the middle east. No loyalty there at all. If someone invades our island then total loyalty to defend our island yes, also to our overseas territories.