Amesbury: Two collapse near Russian spy poisoning site

Given the proximity, I would be suspecting Porton Down employees long before I suspected any Russians. We know they have access to Novichok.

So according to the UK intel and with newspapers, now novichok gets used against random british people !

I think it's better if the UK focuses on football at this point.

a reply to: AndyFromMichigan


Why?

If someone from Porton got their hands on a military grade nerve agent intent on doing some act of terror or whatnot they would use it on a couple of random people? That makes no sense at all.

Much more likely that they found the container used in the Skripal attack, I would have thought.

a reply to: Flanker86


I think you will find that in England we are very focussed on the football and it takes more than a bit of Novichock to get us down.

a reply to: oldcarpy

It looks like both or one of them are drug addicts depending on who you listen too, it's likely they found something in the park whilst picnicking in the area, I'm thinking the same as you, it was the cast off container used in the original poisoning, the police have warned about picking up anything found in the area.

a reply to: wobbs62

Follow up on that idea, Google Skull Valley sheep Kill. Best guess was that a dispersal valve stuck open on a Chem warfare jet aircraft, and the plume kept coming out, as the plane climbed up and away from the desert, Dugway, Ut. testing site.

Then winds aloft, carried the poison nerve agents some thirty miles away to Skull Valley. Factoring in that this second couple had a picnic meal in Salisbury, pretty well jibes with accidental contamination. It ain't gonna do Wiltshire tourism any good, for sure!

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: tommyjo

assessed

That sounds too much like a guess to me

It would be much easier to swallow if they weren't consistently levying accusations at Russia without evidence and the damn proximity to Porton Down wasn't so painfully obvious. There is no logic in Russia exposing themselves by using a Russian-linked nerve agent. Why not use Sarin/VX (commonly available to terrorists) or their signature radioactive substances.

Chemical weapons vs. radiological attacks are not comparable. One way results in reliable death while the other does not (and is readily treatable by field personnel). If they were enough of a target to warrant risking an Article 5 NATO declaration then they would be worth utilizing the appropriate agents (which has been Polonium in past suspected Russian assassinations).

I find it far too convenient that they've tried and failed twice, while seemingly being caught red handed (scary name and all). And the proximity to Porton Down cannot be ignored.

This has false flag written all over it, if the Russian canard is yet again flung into their alternative narrative. Otherwise, it can reliably be an accident from PD facility itself. Third option is an actual Russian attack or an attack by a third party intent to frame Russia. Just seems unlikely, since the Russian canard is the declining left's go-to explanation for events that don't turn out as the left commanded. The election of Donald Trump: Russia, the BREXIT vote: Russia, congress: Russia, Chemical weapons: Russia, Ukraine: Russia instead of Nuland/Obama, etc.

You are trying and failing to get into the mindset of the Russians. Look at the botched job that they did on Litvinenko. It took them a couple of times to get it right and left a trail of polonium on those botched attempts. You are also failing to take into consideration that those responsible might have believed that Novichok wouldn't be identified. Also consider that it could have been a rogue element within the Russian security services. Even if the Russians found out about the rogue element they are never going to admit that they lost control of such nerve agents. In such cases they have no option but to deny any involvement.

The trail back to Russia with the Polonium-210 would have gone undetected if it hadn't been due to a scientist at Aldermaston. Geiger counters were simply not indicating radioactive poisoning in regards to Litvinenko. Were the Russians also going with the chance that Novichok would go undetected and that the west couldn't identify it?

originally posted by: tommyjo

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos

originally posted by: tommyjo
Sky News are reporting that friends of the couple claimed that the critically ill pair found something in the Queen Elizabeth Gardens in Salisbury. The gardens are just a few streets away from the area where the Skripals were found on the bench.

Map link to Queen Elizabeth Gardens, Salisbury

Apparently the couple had a picnic in the Queen Elizabeth Gardens down by the river.

Guardian news article

So again eating or being by the river. Doesn't that river feed down from the bio lab? Could it be possible that it is toxic Cyanobacteria from algae blooms, maybe inadvertently weaponised algae blooms from lab run off, got on their hands and then contaminated them when they ate their picnic?

Or they simply found the dispenser/canister discarded in the gardens. It was assessed that the Novichok was dispensed in a gel to target the Skripals. Either the Skripal gel dispenser or another gel dispenser disposed of.

Wasn't it reported that the Novichok-like nerve agent from the Skripal case was in powder form? Wasn't it also established they got it from their door handle?
Again this whole thing feels off.

originally posted by: tommyjo

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos
a reply to: tommyjo
If it was real Novichok, wouldn' they be dead by now? Isn't Novichok supposed to be a seriously fast acting deadly nerve agent? Oh wait, don't panic, so long as you wipe everything down with baby wipes and give your clothes a wash, as per previous government advice, we will all be fine

So what about degraded Novichok? If exposed to degraded Novichok and excellent first aid and medical assistance is on hand then why can't those contaminated survive? Yes if there is no medical assistance then those contaminated are likely to die. The key here is the prompt medical care and likely administration of atropine.

The advice is basic and sound in regards to dealing with possible contamination. How do you think that the military decontaminate?

OPCW on decontamination

I don't know enough about the chemistry of real Novichok to know if or how it degrades or how long that would take. However, as the government are supposedly burning the Skripal possessions at a very high temp or locking them away under security makes me think it doesn't degrade that fast.
I am still very sceptical over what we are being fed by the mainstream media.

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos

originally posted by: tommyjo

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos

originally posted by: tommyjo
Sky News are reporting that friends of the couple claimed that the critically ill pair found something in the Queen Elizabeth Gardens in Salisbury. The gardens are just a few streets away from the area where the Skripals were found on the bench.

Map link to Queen Elizabeth Gardens, Salisbury

Apparently the couple had a picnic in the Queen Elizabeth Gardens down by the river.

Guardian news article

So again eating or being by the river. Doesn't that river feed down from the bio lab? Could it be possible that it is toxic Cyanobacteria from algae blooms, maybe inadvertently weaponised algae blooms from lab run off, got on their hands and then contaminated them when they ate their picnic?

Or they simply found the dispenser/canister discarded in the gardens. It was assessed that the Novichok was dispensed in a gel to target the Skripals. Either the Skripal gel dispenser or another gel dispenser disposed of.

Wasn't it reported that the Novichok-like nerve agent from the Skripal case was in powder form? Wasn't it also established they got it from their door handle?
Again this whole thing feels off.

Feels like a teenage prank (again) to me. Professionals do a better job.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos

originally posted by: tommyjo

originally posted by: CthulhuMythos

originally posted by: tommyjo
Sky News are reporting that friends of the couple claimed that the critically ill pair found something in the Queen Elizabeth Gardens in Salisbury. The gardens are just a few streets away from the area where the Skripals were found on the bench.

Map link to Queen Elizabeth Gardens, Salisbury

Apparently the couple had a picnic in the Queen Elizabeth Gardens down by the river.

Guardian news article

So again eating or being by the river. Doesn't that river feed down from the bio lab? Could it be possible that it is toxic Cyanobacteria from algae blooms, maybe inadvertently weaponised algae blooms from lab run off, got on their hands and then contaminated them when they ate their picnic?

Or they simply found the dispenser/canister discarded in the gardens. It was assessed that the Novichok was dispensed in a gel to target the Skripals. Either the Skripal gel dispenser or another gel dispenser disposed of.

Wasn't it reported that the Novichok-like nerve agent from the Skripal case was in powder form? Wasn't it also established they got it from their door handle?
Again this whole thing feels off.

Feels like a teenage prank (again) to me. Professionals do a better job.

There's been far more botched assassination attbempts than successful ones by Russia since the colour revolutions. The President of Ukraine, Viktor Yuschenko was poisoned with dioxin which left him disfigured for years (sowllen pus filled head and limbs, with some paralysis and various organ damage).

Russian opposition politician, Vladimir Kara-Murza, was poisoned twice which failed to work.

Plenty of journalists have been poisoned, then murdered after they survived the initial poisonings over the years.

foreignpolicy.com...

The Skirpal's only survived as they were given almost immediate medical attention when they started with symptoms.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: AndyFromMichigan


Why?

If someone from Porton got their hands on a military grade nerve agent intent on doing some act of terror or whatnot they would use it on a couple of random people? That makes no sense at all.

Much more likely that they found the container used in the Skripal attack, I would have thought.

Yup, why waste it on two randoms no one's heard of when if it was intentional they could have used it on the England footy team and immediately have the nation calling for war?

A leak makes no sense either as they're so far away from Porton and no others have been affected.

Container certainly seems the most likely, possible major cock up in the clean up operation if it was found near the original sites of interest from the Skirpal event.

a reply to: oldcarpy

Ah... I see.

It now appears as if these individuals came into contact with "an item", elsewhere than the Skripals went themselves, meaning that it is likely that this item, whatever it may be, was dumped after the attempted hit was enacted. The most likely location for this item to have been discovered, would be the park, near to the shopping centre, and close by to the Skripal residence, according to the boffins and commentators that the news media have deployed to talk about these matters.

Apparently, the pair who are currently in hospital, had a "certain type of lifestyle", which would lead them into contact with illegal narcotics, which made the initial identification of the seriousness of the situation, somewhat more difficult to discern than it might otherwise have been. Reports suggested that some kind of illegal drugs were discovered at the property where the two were found. Suggestions are that the item the pair came into contact with was likely to be some kind of syringe or phial of some sort, which in turn implies that the specific drugs those two were into, as a part of the "lifestyle choices" that the authorities mentioned, were likely to be the sort that one injects.

Watching reportage last night, I saw an interview with a friend of one of the victims, and without wishing to make snap judgements, the first thing that sprung to mind upon seeing the mannerisms, bodily condition, and speech patterns of that friend, was "Oh... yep, you are definitely a smack head". This might explain why the victims were prepared to touch a syringe or phial with an unidentified origin. Most folk would be quite wary of doing any such thing under normal circumstances, leave alone during the tail end of a decontamination effort by local authorities and the counter terrorism unit, of a suspected chemical weapons incident. Familiarity with the type of item concerned would be required for a person to consider touching the thing, as well as at least a slightly, if not completely compromised decision making capability.

a reply to: TrueBrit

OK, I'm with you but I was under the impression that the last time, Novichok was found all over the shop. How could that be the case if it was injected?

a reply to: Dem0nc1eaner

Well, a syringe is just a simple pump, if you really boil it down. Its a limited volume pump. That means that it could have been used to spray a measure of the substance onto surfaces the Skripals could have come into contact with, or onto them directly for that matter (although that is not thought to have occurred in this specific case). Its basically like having a water pistol with a very fine spout and a very small reservoir.

Theres more to syringes than just injection, you just have to be a little creative. Its a storage medium and delivery system, all in one.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Agreed. Not one to make snap judgments but know a lot of people who indulge in smack, the guy giving press interviews was clearly on either high amounts of benzos or a velvet morning. Can tell from the pictures he and the guy who was poisoned have lived that lifestyle a long time, the female not so much, looks like predominantly alcohol abuse.

However the effects of nerve agents in the acetyl-choline family (Sarin, VX, Novichok) are very similar to heroin overdose or too much amphetamine/meth - shallow breathing, pinpoint pupils, sweating, vomiting, tight chest. It's only with time symptoms deviate from what doctors would see 99.99999% of the time.

Agreed a syringe would make an excellent storage (and reaction) system, with a free dosage measure to boot. It's thought the Novichock was created from two polar reactants that themselves are harmless but when combined react to create Novichock.

A syringe would be a perfect way to extract from a vial of reactant A, then another extraction from reactant B to keep it contained until needed to be used. Not saying it was the method used but it's hard to think of a more easily portable/concealable method, easilly deployable and discarded sharps are pretty inconspicuous.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Yes, good points. For some reason I think I had it in my head that it would have been a solid substance like a powder, but all the hearsay seems to be pointing at a syringe being the obvious choice. I would be surprised to think even a hardened junkie would use a discarded syringe with something left inside it, but then again maybe I wouldn't be that surprised...

a reply to: Dem0nc1eaner

It might be that they moved the item with the intention of disposing of it in a sharps bin, when they next had a chance to do so. I would agree that even a total degenerate would have trouble squaring the use of a dirty needle.

I can't get it out of my head that I know the woman too, it's driving me crazy. I keep telling myself she just has one of those faces, but it's driving me mad. I'm sure she was drinking at my local for a while recently, but I'm probably just losing it...

So, if this stuff is really that potent, I could concede now that the most likely case here is that the syringe that was used in the first attack, was hidden in a hobo hole somewhere, under a bridge or in one of those empty concrete boxes that seem to have no use other than to house empty cans and plastic bags. These guys could have been rooting about for freebies, found the syringe, examined it and that could have been all that was necessary to poison themselves with. I highly doubt a junkie would inject it. Unless it looks strikingly similar to smack, which I also doubt, as smack is a very dirty and distinctive looking substance.

I still don't feel great about the Russian connection and I am still highly suspicious of the vicinity to PD, but I've let go of the idea of an accidental release or homegrown terrorism, in favour of this more realistic explanation.

a reply to: Dem0nc1eaner

It is always wise to take the facts into account when formulating theory.

Otherwise we end up with flat earthers, and people who believe that high society types have a one in four chance of being lizards in person skin.