3500 Year Old Greek Masterpiece found on a thumb sized Agate

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: pikestaff

What a huge sword pommel, in relation to the length of the sword.

All the better to stove your helmet in.

I imagine they knew that armored adversaries were likely to ruin their bronze blades so used the pommel instead, whenever possible.

Also looks like they carried a club as well.

Edit to Add: Or is that a shealth for the sword? If Shealth why the bulb at the end? If club, why does it look hollow?

If you mean the long object on the ground , its probably the sheath for the sword. Or a quiver for arrows? But I don't see a bow in the picture. It is lying on the ground near the sword of the vanquished person.

The man with the sword also has a similar looking 'scabbard' on his belt.

I imagine the single image tells a tale holding all the story elements in one frame, as it were.

If you ask me, the soldier about to kill the other one with the lance was defending the wounded soldier on the ground.

Maybe his friend or family member, maybe?

a reply to: soberbacchus

you are correct that isd a scaboard for the sword and it is in the Minoan style, as is the artwork itself.
One thing not brought up in this latest incarnation of the story, is that the Griffin warrior tomb has shown us, without a doubt, that Mycenaen culture was a derivative of Minoan culture.

Human conflict captured in a gem

a reply to: andy06shake
Obsidian would not have been any good because it's not hard enough. Its hardness is around 5 to 5.5, while agate is 7. However, people of this time had access to a fair number of precious and semi-precious stones that were hard enough, including beryl -- which includes emeralds -- (hardness 7.5 to 8), topaz (8), chrysoberyl (8.5), corundum -- rubies if red and sapphires if blue -- (9), and of course diamond (10).

Most likely a fine-bladed stylus was used for much of the carving (or a range of them), then polishing could have been done with powder from a hard material like those mentioned above.

For example, the Ancient Egyptians used sapphire-tipped drills to drill out the insides of sarcophagae, and also had very hard stylus tools for carving extremely fine lines and details into reasonably hard materials.

As for being able to see such fine details as shown in the OP, some people simply have far better than average visual acuity. Again (and as Byrd has also pointed out), examples of very fine and detailed work are known that pre-date this particular master's work by centuries or even millennia.

a reply to: Byrd

Wow. That gold necklace is amazing. I wish had 1/2 the talent that some of the ancient artisans had.

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: soberbacchus

One thing not brought up in this latest incarnation of the story, is that the Griffin warrior tomb has shown us, without a doubt, that Mycenaen culture was a derivative of Minoan culture.

Have you seen this paper yet? Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall but Dienekes gives a little info that's not in the abstract as well.

www.nature.com...

dienekes.blogspot.com...

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: soberbacchus

One thing not brought up in this latest incarnation of the story, is that the Griffin warrior tomb has shown us, without a doubt, that Mycenaen culture was a derivative of Minoan culture.

Have you seen this paper yet? Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall but Dienekes gives a little info that's not in the abstract as well.

www.nature.com...

dienekes.blogspot.com...

yes I have read the paper, I believe i have a copy.
The genetics confirm what the physical archeology alluded to with the excavation of the tomb, that Mycenaen greek culture was an extension of Minoan culture.
They spoke related languages that were likely mutual intellageble, and the sophisticated and metropolitan Minoans dazzled the herdsman mainland Mycenaens, and they became a client state, subjugated with benefits, so to speak.


The griffin warrior



the necklace found in the tomb







The swords are spoils of victory, the blade by the warriors leg is Celtic

a reply to: punkinworks10

Fascinating! Thanks for that.

I know I am missing something obvious, but Celt Sword? Ireland would be 2000 miles away? When did Minoans and Celts scrap it up?

Edit to add: I'd venture a guess that bead above also from the Griffin Soldiers grave was done by the same artist as the battle scene.

Those bulls look very detailed.

originally posted by: soberbacchus
a reply to: punkinworks10

Fascinating! Thanks for that.

I know I am missing something obvious, but Celt Sword? Ireland would be 2000 miles away? When did Minoans and Celts scrap it up?

Edit to add: I'd venture a guess that bead above also from the Griffin Soldiers grave was done by the same artist as the battle scene.

Those bulls look very detailed.

Ireland/scotland were last refuges for celtic people, during this period. At the point in time the Griffin warrior was buried, nearly all of central Europe was "celtic", or gaulic if using roman terminology.

a reply to: soberbacchus

The Minoans also had a heavy presence in britain, and might have been responsible for bringing the bronze age proper to england from Ireland, via celtic Iberian metal workers and miners. They also traded with the scandanavians and likely brought sail technlogy to them.

a reply to: JustMike

I dont know enough about the process to disagree.

Obsidian was just a guess, shot in the dark really.

Obviously, though they used the materials and tools available to them.

a reply to: soberbacchus

Holy crap this is huge! I mean tiny. I mean huge, I mean forget it I'm just posting to keep up to date cheers

a reply to: rickymouse

Do they chemically clean these kind of artifacts?

originally posted by: 0bserver1
a reply to: rickymouse

Do they chemically clean these kind of artifacts?

I don't know. I had some bad luck with using chemicals, but I did not know how it was supposed to be done at the time.

originally posted by: intrptr
Sorry if anyone has suggested it already, my guess is the craftsman had a rudimentary magnifying glass, carved from a piece of clear crystal. After all he was a skilled artist, wasn't he?

Since we know rock crystal existed, since we know he also carved in gem stone, it would only take a tiny field of view thru a bit of carved stone to facilitate just enough magnification for the artisan to work on such a tiny figure.

People are saying the 'size of a thumb', are there any images that include a familiar object to compare scale?

Right .. but for WHY was it Made for what Purpose .. ?

any Clue ..

you know what my Hunch is ?

The Gem is Transparent Right ?

Shine a Light through it say the Sun ... right by Means Like a Beam..

and place it in front of a particular Wall with the Sun/light shining through it

Would it Magnify on the Wall and show Detail! ?

I Bet it would !

and I think that is the Purpose of the Carved Gem.. was..

that was Probably a necklace! ( correction : it was on the Wrist )




Would anyone here Agree that may be the Purpose .. .

the Jewel causing a magnification on a wall..

Wonder if they tried that ?

well i took some pics of some of the Treasure the Gold seals ? Rings ...

and i inverted them and sharpen a few

and amazing results




I see Angels!



Just wow! Grayed it for Detail and sharpen

a reply to: soberbacchus

Its pretty cool, but a bit over dramatized, the Greeks especially of that time were very fond of dramatizing things, they were also very paranoid, and prone to delusions, a vast majority of them thought invisible magic people in the sky and on a mountain were watching them and everything they did. Off course nobody gave a # most especially the invisible sky people, but hey they actually believed that.

The only weird thing about that little artistic depiction is I cant tell if that guy getting stabbed is holding a shield, or if that is his cloak or something. Either way if its a shield, he's doing it wrong, and the guy that is dead or laying down by his feet.

That's a no no, to much dramatization, even if you hit a vital spot, still takes a few minutes at most to go out, and not all were prone to shock, trying to step over them, to stab another guy in the neck, now is a sure fire way to get your leg chopped off, there's even a sword just laying right there next to him. Now how convenient is that?

As far as artwork goes, I suppose its pretty good. But I would not take it of actual factual history.

a reply to: Wolfenz
That last one, now that is one weirdo snake bird lady depiction.

a reply to: Wolfenz

Right .. but for WHY was it Made for what Purpose .. ?

I was thinking earlier it told a story of one mans experience.

Shine a Light through it say the Sun ... right by Means Like a Beam..

and place it in front of a particular Wall with the Sun/light shining through it

Would it Magnify on the Wall and show Detail! ?

Like a slide projector? You would need a contained, focused beam backlighting the agate, shining thru a lens in the focal plane like a projector to get the image on the wall.

Since the agate is thicker than a slide and less transparent, I don't think it would work. I don't know if anyone has tried it with modern lamps. It might certainly work up close to a white 'screen', maybe thats how the artist magnified the carving while working on it. But I'm going wth a rock crystal magnifying lens for now.

Good idea, anyway. Really cool images you bought of other 'works' that are also intricate, revealing the artist did other work for the same person.

a reply to: Wolfenz

AHAH! I think I found a possible solution to how the artist could work in such small detail. According to this...

The earliest known lenses were made from polished crystal, often quartz, and have been dated as early as 750 BC for Assyrian lenses such as the Nimrud / Layard lens. There are many similar lenses from ancient Egypt, Greece and Babylon. The ancient Romans and Greeks filled glass spheres with water to make lenses.

Wiki

(My emphasis)