Saudi Arabia says Lebanon has declared war on it

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Don't forget that the ones who lose the most in wars are always the civilians who live nearby. It's their neighborhoods, workplaces, roads, bridges, and property that always gets ravaged (not to mention the obvious deaths among them, their families, and their neighbors).

Absolutely.

(Sigh...) I wanted to like the Saudi Crown Prince because I like his modernization efforts & pro-women's rights reforms. But he's looking more and more like a common warmonger.

I said this before but don't remember if it was in this thread.

I can't imagine any good soul coming from such families living such a distant life from reality and expectations that its their right to be waited on by the little people.

Growing up in a family where its more important and useful to spend billions in frivolous spending like gold plated cars and such , while people are living in poverty around them as they continue to exploit their them for slave labor will likely not generate a good caring person in the end. Not to mention their acceptance of killing family members for power. Yeah nothing good will come from that family.

a reply to: interupt42

Yeah, I just don't agree with brushing them all with the same brush like that. I still believe in the concept that individuals are only responsible for their own actions, hence why I give everyone a chance to prove their true intentions.

Otherwise, I can cast the same kinds of judgment on the warmonger families right here, especially the ones here in the South (where I live) that know they have slaveowners in their lineage. And the ones who willingly hire and exploit undocumented workers. And the ones who have family members in the KKK, street gangs, organized groups groups, etc. Guilt by association works both ways.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Yeah, I just don't agree with brushing them all with the same brush like that.

I'm not brushing them all with the same brush , but I don't think its an environment that helps promote the best in humanity. the odds are against them.

I can cast the same kinds of judgment on the warmonger families right here, especially the ones here in the South (where I live) that know they have slaveowners in their lineage. And the ones who willingly hire and exploit undocumented workers. And the ones who have family members in the KKK, street gangs, organized groups groups, etc. Guilt by association works both ways.

Same thing. Its not an environment that helps promote the best in humanity.

However, even with those mentally challenged individuals in the US they still have a better chance to break through the family stupidity then the Saudi Royal who everyone including our gov't caters too.

If everyone around you agrees with you and caters to you at such levels you become disassociated from the reality that most live in. Hollyweird is another perfect example of the consequence of not being called out on your BS, but unlikely the Princes they can only effect our quality of entertainment.

Yeah...

But at least Saudi Arabia and Lebanon both signed the Paris Agreement...Unlike the USA.

So, maybe there's a chance for middle ground there...

Breaking: Saudi Arabia telling all if it's citizens in Lebanon to leave Immediately .

www.dailystar.co.uk...

This sh** is starting to get real over the past few days folks.

Anything that involves Israel, Saudi Arabia, or Iran (or any combination of those three) will also involve all of us western allies.

Time to hide your sons and daughters.... unless you're perfectly okay with them losing their lives over middle eastern territorial and resource controls.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
This sh** is starting to get real over the past few days folks.

It certainly does. The threats coming from the Iran and Saudi Arabia are like two pissed blokes in the bar, all the loud noise usually leads to a punch up when they've been giving it long enough. They've been playing it out in Syria for a few years now but that's almost game over, big win for Iran. They are going to need a new pitch to play on if they aren't going to go at it face to face soon. On a side note even Egypt was threatening yesterday to get involved if Gulf security is threatened. No doubt Israel will take out Lebanon due to the Hezbollah missile threat if war between Iran and Saudi breaks out for real............. Interesting times

Update:

According to an Arabic-language Lebanese newspaper, the current Lebanese President and the current Lebanese Parliament Speaker believe their now former Prime Minister Saad Hariri is being detained in Saudi Arabia and wasforced by them to resign. This is a rough google translation from one article:

The positions of President Michel Aoun and Parliament Speaker Nabih Berri coincide with the crisis of the resignation of President Saad Hariri from Riyadh and his detention as a hostage by the rulers of Saudi Arabia. This full harmony between the two heads of state reflects a cohesion at the level of the Lebanese state and at the grassroots level, embracing the political forces of the Hariri family and ensuring the return of the kidnapped prime minister before looking into anything else.

Bari boycotted yesterday, with Aoun's positions before the delegation of economic bodies and the delegation of the General Workers' Union, where Aoun said during the meeting that "Hariri is being held by Saudi Arabia." For his part, Berri stressed that he is waiting for Hariri to return from Riyadh and that "if he returns and resigns in accordance with the constitutional framework, then he will build on the matter." He repeated that "Hariri is not resigned", more than once, and that "what happened is a precedent, a prime minister with immunity under the Vienna Convention. Had he announced his resignation from here, his resignation would have been constitutional and a window. " Asked if Hariri would not return soon, he said: "Our patience is long, we wait 20,30, 50 days ... our patience is long. We want regularity of relations with all Arab countries, and we were not the initiators of what is going on ». On the repercussions of sanctions and economic pressures on Lebanon, the Speaker of the House of Representatives responded with much confidence that "we have gone through many of these circumstances and under economic pressure. Lebanon is stronger than America if we are united and weakened from the spider's web if we are scattered. "

The case of the Prime Minister being detained by the Security Council

And remember, this is coming from the current President and Parliament Speakers of Lebanon! So it's not like this is some fake news fringe conspiracy writer's speculation.

For further context, Hezbollah is a part of the now former Prime Minister Hariri's political alliance. But Hariri also apparently has Saudi citizenship, though I don't know if it's dual citizenship (which would be my guess). So if Lebanon's other leaders are telling the truth, this means that Saudi Arabia is holding Hariri captive, forced him to resign, and is shifting blame onto Iran and Hezbollah. (The reason they've stated that he hasn't returned to Lebanon is because of supposed threats on his life by Hezbollah.)

This is blowing my mind. And I'm just now realizing that Saudi Arabia's completely controlling the narrative about this so far, since I haven't seen other reports even mention the Lebanese perspectives on this crisis.

One more update.

Lebanon's ex-Prime Minister Saad Hiriri just had an hour long interview where he says he should be returning to Lebanon in a few days. He also seemed to imply that he'd continue his duties as Prime Minister, which is making this even more perplexing.

There are plenty of new articles about the interview (like THIS & THIS), but I'll try to find a full transcript so people can form their own conclusions.

ETA: Couldn't find a full transcript.
But I did find a Western article that touched on the suspicions that the Lebanese people and other Lebanese leaders have about this situation. I say that because so far the story has been almost exclusively told from Saudi Arabia's interpretation.

Those concerned that he may have been pressured or even detained by Saudi Arabia — including Lebanese officials, Western diplomats and some of Mr. Hariri’s political allies — were unlikely to be convinced by anything short of his return to Lebanon. Adding to their suspicions, Mr. Hariri’s resignation came on the same day that the assertive Saudi crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman, oversaw the arrests of hundreds of Saudis in what he says is a corruption crackdown and critics say amounts to a purge.

The resignation announcement was widely seen as a Saudi effort to bring down the coalition government in which Mr. Hariri served along with representatives of the Hezbollah, a Shiite militia and political party — and an ally of Iran. At least five Lebanese television stations refused to carry Sunday’s interview, saying it was still unclear whether Mr. Hariri was able to speak freely.

Lebanon’s president, Michel Aoun, had said earlier that anything Mr. Hariri says from Saudi Arabia “does not reflect the truth, and is but the result of the mysterious and dubious situation he is undergoing in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and hence cannot be taken seriously.” “I’m free, I could leave tomorrow,” Mr. Hariri told Ms. Yacoubian. He added, however, that information had come to light while he was in Riyadh that persuaded him that he needed to review his security arrangements before returning. Lebanese authorities have said they have no information about a plot against him.

Lebanon’s Leader, Still in Saudi Arabia, Claims He’s Free to Go

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Here is a piece to throw into the pot

Hariri’s Resignation as Prime Minister of Lebanon is Not All it Seems He certainly did not anticipate what happened to him. Indeed, Hariri had scheduled meetings in Beirut on the following Monday – with the IMF, the World Bank and a series of discussions on water quality improvement; not exactly the action of a man who planned to resign his premiership By Robert Fisk - Beirut

www.informationclearinghouse.info...

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Yep. I'm more and more convinced that he was actually abducted & forced to resign by the Saudi govt. Remember, it all happened on the same weekend that Saudi Arabia did those surprise arrests of so many other powerful royals, officials, and former officials.

They even detained the richest man in Saudi Arabia, the 2nd richest man in Saudi Arabia, and the 5th richest man in Saudi Arabia. One rumor is that the detained people would have their cases dropped if they pledged support for the Crown Prince's ascension to the throne. So far, I only consider that a rumor but wow if it's true.

ETA: And OMG at your link! If even half of it is true then wow... Now these are the kinds of conspiracies we should talking about on ATS! Because this is the real deal stuff that actually causes wars, revolutions, etc. I'm imagining the movie adaptation of this in another 15 years or so. It'll either be amazing or horrific.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I see that the US is opening a military base in Israel as well ...As far as SA goes it was or would be a at best no win no loose against Iran .With Qatar and Turkey now siding with Iran ,SA would probably loose . My guess is that the Qatar move along with Turkey may have been a ruse .Its hard to trust either one of them at this point seeing the US has the big base in Qatar .

What is happening in SA make absolutely no sense at all . Its like a doubling down on dumb for destruction both politically and militarily ... Hard to say what the next move will be especially with Lebanon . Russia and or China may call a emergency meeting at the UN is my guess .

a reply to: enlightenedservant

You have got to read this piece .

The Saudi paper describes the issues and process steps towards a deal in five points: First: The Saudis demand a "parity of the relationship" between Israel and Saudi Arabia. On the military level they demand that either Israel gives up on its nuclear weapons or Saudi Arabia is itself allowed to acquire such. Second: In exchange Saudi Arabia will use its diplomatic and economic power to push through a 'peace plan' between Israel, the Palestinians and Arab countries along the lines that the U.S. will lay out. Within such a peace plan the Saudis, according to the memo, are willing to make extraordinary concessions: The city of Jerusalem would not become capital of a Palestinian state but be subjected to a special international regime administered by the United Nations. The right of return for Palestinian refugees, who were violently expelled by the Zionists, would be given up on. The refugees would be integrated as citizens of those countries where they currently reside. (No demand for full sovereignty of a Palestinian state is mentioned.)

Third: After reaching an agreement of the "main principles of the final solution" for Palestine between Saudi Arabia and the U.S. (Israel), a meeting of all foreign ministers of the region would be convened to back these up. Final negotiations would follow. Fourth: In coordination and cooperation with Israel Saudi Arabia would use its economic power to convince the Arab public of the plan. The point correctly notes "At the beginning of normalizing relations with Israel, normalization will not be acceptable to public opinion in the Arab world." The plan is thus to essentially bribe the Arab public into accepting it. Fifth: The Palestinian conflict distracts from the real issue the Saudi rulers have in the region which is Iran: "Therefore, the Saudi and Israeli sides agree on the following: Contribute to counter any activities that serve Iran's aggressive policies in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia's affinity with Israel must be matched by a sincere American approach against Iran. Increase US and international sanctions related to Iranian ballistic missiles. Increase sanctions on Iran's sponsorship of terrorism around the world. Re-examination of the group (five + 1) in the nuclear agreement with Iran to ensure the implementation of its terms literally and strictly. Limiting Iran's access to its frozen assets and exploiting Iran's deteriorating economic situation and marketing it to increase pressure on the Iranian regime from within. Intensive intelligence cooperation in the fight against organized crime and drug trafficking supported by Iran and Hezbollah." The memo is signed by Adel al-Jubeir. (But who were the 'advisors' who dictated it to him?)

www.moonofalabama.org...

a reply to: the2ofusr1

" I AM LEBANON! TODAY I DECLARE WAR ON SAUDI ARABIA"

Am I the only one who sees just how ridiculous this is?

On the other hand...........as a public service to those unfamiliar with the modern day history of Lebanon....DO NOT invest large sums of money in Lebanese real estate, especially in Beirut. They have a tendency toward near constant "Urban Renewal" by way of "Detonation". The Funeral business on the other hand? You could get very wealthy with that in Lebanon, if you survived.

Gotta go now, my realtor in Jerusalem is calling about a great bargain on some property in the Golan Heights!

Hmmm, seem to have heard of that before..................I'll have to get a map!

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I don't even know what to say...

If true about Abbas, that makes at least the 3rd time they've dictated to a foreign leader whether to resign or stay. People forget this now, but Yemen's leader had originally resigned and fled Yemen before the current war there. But after meetings in Saudi Arabia, he took back his resignation and called in the Saudi coalition to help him regain his position. The real story was supposedly that Saudi Arabia didn't want an Iranian ally controlling access to the Red Sea (on top of the Wahhabi-Shiite feud).

So that makes Yemen's leader, Lebanon's President, and now the Palestinian leader who've been given ultimatums by the Saudis. Yet we're supposed to believe that it's Iran who's stirring up trouble in the region?

As for them selling out the Palestinians, no way! The Saudis have no grounds to make any of those decisions (though I don't personally mind Jerusalem becoming an international city). And that's a double "no way!" about allowing them to have nuclear weapons. They can't even beat Yemen right now with the most advanced weaponry, so I have no doubts they'd use nukes against them (and Iran and Assad and...). However, it's worth noting that a few years ago I saw an interview with a top Iranian official who adamantly stated that Iran would never allow the Saudis to have a nuclear weapon. I'll see if I can find it but don't get your hopes up since I can't even remember which official gave the interview.

As for the part where they wanted to get everyone to focus on Iran, that makes this report from August seem laughable now. Supposedly, the Crown Prince asked Iraq to mediate between Saudi Arabia and Iran so they could deescalate things.
Saudi Arabia 'seeks Iraq's help' to mend ties with Iran

Saudi asks Iraq to mediate between Riyadh, Tehran: Iraqi minister

Oh, and here's where your link originated. It's from an Arabic Lebanese newspaper:

A secret document about a correspondence between al-Jubair and Mohammed bin Salman

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Its hard to say whats actually true in that but it seems that some parts are way out in left field .If I read correctly part of the deal was for Israel to give up the Nukes ...as if ...The Yemen/Lebanon/Palestinian leader issues are not really new and seems to be a go to every so often to change the subject rather then accomplishing anything . Even the leak or the publication of the document is making every one scratch their heads . maybe they will have a war and no one will show up ...

a reply to: TonyS

That property on the Golan will only be a hop skip and a jump from the new Iranian base . You could probably make a good buck giving tours .

Everything is changing because of the Natural disaster in the regions right? The EQ's have put everything on hold as far as a war? No country should ever hit another when they are in the middle of a tragic event. If so it lends credibility to my own personal paranoia about other countries hitting us in the event of a major EQ event such as New Madras or the West coast

a reply to: the2ofusr1

The part with Israel giving up its nukes has the condition that if they don't, then Saudi Arabia should be able to have nukes. It says:

First, any rapprochement between the Kingdom and Israel depends on the parity of the relationship between the two countries. At the military level, Israel is the only country possessing nuclear weapons in the Middle East, which gives it a factor of superiority in regional balance of power. Therefore, the Kingdom should be allowed to possess such deterrent elements Or Israel's demilitarization.

A secret document about a correspondence between al-Jubair and Mohammed bin Salman

Since Israel's clearly not giving up its nukes, this agreement would allow the Saudis to have an excuse to get them too. I guess the world is supposed to have forgotten that Saudi Arabia threatened to buy nukes from Pakistan not too long ago in regards to Iran, the Iranian sanctions, and the Iran nuclear deal.

(I have a semi-crackpot theory that Israel doesn't really have nukes. All of the reports that I've seen about their supposed nuclear arsenal have come from Israeli and American sources, and I think the plan is to basically bluff the world into thinking they really have them. Then again, I've also read about the "Samson Option" so who knows.)

a reply to: enlightenedservant

The whole thing may just be a elaborate ruse to get Iran to re-address their Nuke agreement .In fact its the only thing that might make sense to me .