CERN was now built in the fifties?

a reply to: TrueBrit

And where did the black hole BS come from? These "scientists":

In the run up to the commissioning of the LHC, Walter L. Wagner (an original opponent of the RHIC), Luis Sancho (a Spanish science writer) and Otto Rössler (a German biochemist) expressed concerns over the safety of the LHC, and attempted to halt the beginning of the experiments through petitions to the US and European Courts.These opponents assert that the LHC experiments have the potential to create low velocity micro black holes that could grow in mass or release dangerous radiation leading to doomsday scenarios, such as the destruction of the Earth. Other claimed potential risks include the creation of theoretical particles called strangelets, magnetic monopoles and vacuum bubbles.

Safety of LHC - Wiki

Edit: And who is Walter L. Wagner? A Former Botanist/Teacher/Biologist/Geiger Counter tile detector.

Ahahaha.

a reply to: MuonToGluon

Walter L. Wagner, Luis Sancho, and Otto Rossler...

Do you know what all of these people have in common? An inappropriate level of education, to be commenting on the activation of or creation of, a piece of apparatus for use in experimentation in high physics.

Luis Sancho is a science writer, and if there is one thing which the news media has proven over the years, it is that people who author books on the sciences without actually being involved in their advancement themselves, are nearly always hideously poorly informed. For example, when Stephen Hawking writes a book about physics, you pick it up, you buy it from the vendor, you take it home, you read it. When someone who has only the familiarity with physics that your average science columnist for a newspaper or other publication has, you leave it on the shelf, unless you happen to be totally witless. In short, Sancho's opinion is NOT informed, certainly not when compared to those whose project he opposed.

Otto Rossler is a biochemist, which is somewhat better, but heres the rub. He is a biochemist. He is not a physicist. When I want to know whether my teeth will fall out, I go to the dentists, and ask them what they think. I do not consult a thoracic surgeon. I do not request the opinion of a botanist. I do not ask for the counsel of a cultural anthropologist, or a chemical engineer. I ONLY ask my dentist or an orthodontist, because only they have any business commenting authoritatively on the matter.

And Wagner... this man is a bloody botanist! The fellow may well be able to grow a prize set of petunias, but has no place trying to derail a project in the field of physics, just because his botanical knowledge has not permitted him the insight to understand the subject properly!

Its a madness!

a reply to: TrueBrit

Look fair enough but I am joe public here and that mean's I associate it like everyone else does with Cern, you know that weird place with the stupid statue of the Hindu god and the possibly real human sacrifice by some weirdo's that potentially had very little to do with the site.

Secondly Cern is and will forever BE associated with the Hadron Collider so come off it and stop trying to deflect my point.

Also True Brit as a fellow mongrel of the British Isle's, in other words a Brit myself were not inbred hillbilly's so there is really no such thing as a True Brit just lot's of patriotic one's that love our nation and some plonkers that think the sun shines out of the royal family's back side's I most often love your point's, not always but most often and on this occasion I know it is nothing personal but come on you know what I meant so that is just nit picking.

By the way as a personal note, I do know a little bit about science as you may guess, I am not a mathematics lover though and preferred practical so switched to electronic engineering before suffering head injury's in an unprovoked attack and both memory loss, slurred speech, reduced dexterity and delayed concussion for many years after so on behalf of a lot of people I have to say that everyone has the right to comment weather you regard them as qualified or not, there opinion' still bare hearing.
By the way there are a lot of thing's I disagree with Hawking about, his taste in woman has been questionable in the past with one wife allegedly abusing him, his theory's often but not always have a part of his own personal view coming over rather than simply being perfect theory's, many theoretician's could be accused of the same thing but it taint's there work especially when they are highly respected, his have rather pessimistic nature at time's and I do not agree that all black holes are really brown hole's that is just his theory and let's be fair clever as he the guy is still not a Tesla or an Einstein is he, his nature of time is his own personal theory and I personally also do not ascribe to it.
In fact the only thing I can agree absolutely with him is his worry about the NHS and that is only because he is a user of the NHS services as are all of us so it is nice at least to see a credible and influential scientist even if indirectly critical of the bad government we currently have.

a reply to: LABTECH767

I know, right?

I get confused between cars and Americans all the time.

/sarc

a reply to: TerryDon79

HA, car's and american's well you could argue that the Automobile was an american invention but then you could counter argue that with the Italian's, the French and us Brit's whom all had our own version's including steam powered car's in some cases decades before the US version.
We could also argue about the Wright brother's and claim's that are perfectly valid that other's flew before them including both French and English and yet again Italian claim's among other's.
Were it became American was it was mass produced (henry ford) and it was there FIRST that it really took over in the case of both Car's and Airplane's.

But hey back on topic.

I have to say though I am far from the only one guilty of that.


Drat, Drat, Drat got to come back to edit this again, my subconscious bigotry led me to exclude the German's but here is a wickie turns out the first Practical automobile was actually German.
en.wikipedia.org...
Nein, Nein (I am stamping my foot here)

But at least we still beat them with Radar (though almost simultaneously invented by us both) and with the Jet Engine (though frank whittle's invention was ignored by the RAF which was staffed by old fuddy duddies at that time - 1930's or we would have had usable jet engine's and perhaps even jet fighter's before the second world war even began)

And let's not forget the Chinese, they would claim they got there first with everything, rocket powered flight, human's on giant kite's monitoring the battle field below (must have been hard avoiding those arrow's), blast furnace high quality steel production nearly a thousand years ago, mechanical clock which they invented (According to other claim's but I have yet to see an evidence of it) then promptly forgot before being stunned just a few century's later when the emperor became enamored of a Swiss clock etc, etc.

Ah another one for your book's, we British also were ahead of everyone in development of the Atom bomb, we were estimated by some account's to be about two years ahead of the German's for example but resources were squeezed, once the US joined our scientists work and our scientists themselves ended up being shipped to the states and working under Oppenheimer (you know the one that quoted the Hindu Scriptures "I am become death the destroyer of worlds") whom of course got all the credit, the US was actually the furthest behind prior to that though and the German's may have been closer than anyone today know's, we did destroy there heavy water plant in Norway though which definitely hampered them.

Now I am of course not being Sarcastic back.

a reply to: LABTECH767

That's nice.

Still doesn't mean you're right.

CERN=Group of people.
LHC=Machine.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Group of SCIENTISTS in charge of and operating the LHC.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: TerryDon79

Group of SCIENTISTS in charge of and operating the LHC.

Not quite. You've narrowed it down way too much.

There's a whole load of other people that are a part of CERN. It's not just the scientists.

Oh, there's also other accelerators that CERN have been involved with.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Yes but they work under the Auspices of Cern, Cern has control of the LHC and yes like any partical accelerator others from all around the world do share time on it, it is after all an international endeavor.
University's from around the world book time there fairly regularly but the experiment's that caused the controversy and created the fear were actually hosted by Cern, as you rightly point out the LHC is only a machine, a load of super conducting magnet's and huge vacuum tube were particles are accelerated together and smashed into one another inside a detector designed to pick up the result's of this collision, the fear that people had may be irrational but it was also understandable.
As mass (particle of matter) is accelerated to relativistic speeds by the tokomats (powerful electromagnet's) there worry was that the combined collision of these particles would hit the speed of light relative to one another at the point of the collision, (not actually possible - or at least I dont' think so at least not in linear term's though there are interesting idea's that may allow us to circumvent this rule of relativity) and then equal e, the problem then is that this is enough energy to create a singularity IF it was maintained long enough which it would not be of course.
But you can still understand there worry and fear.
Newer theory's and conspiracy's revolve around wormhole's but in fact they exist all the time any way and are all below the sub atomic level and making one large enough to pass even an atom through would be almost impossible if not actually impossible, still they do open up the possibility of actual time travel and also genuine ability to travel between points in the TSC faster than the speed of light.
Personally I doubt cern is advanced enough for that but maybe, just maybe somewhere in the US there is a facility that is not, perhaps under one of those mysterious base's they have.
(Actually wormhole research could eventually allow us to tap into REAL zero point energy, you know SG1 style but I doubt the resultant technology would be nice portable alien battery's).

a reply to: AlexandrosTheGreat

the stupidity burns!!!!!!
if you dont know something why do you have to assume it was different

originally posted by: ErosA433
The narration of the video is really ignorant, basically taking the Micky out of a bunch of old pages claiming that everything looks funny LOL LOL LOL Great joke look at the old car from the 80s!

Then to say that none of the stuff existed before the LHC turned on, simply because they themselves couldn't find it on the internet. Its the most dumb statement I'v ever heard. Making throw away comments that have little to no truth or meaning to them.
The comment about a permanently on shift boyfriend, is really dumb and ignorant, it actually tells the truth of what it is like to be a scientist. That the passion for the work often drives people to work really weird and long hours, people who dedicated their lives to science. - To then be mocked by someone who's words make it sound like they dedicated their life to doing nothing but conspiracies and ignorance.
"Here are some business men looking at the equipment" Yeah change business men with Scientists. It seems like the author of the video simple subscribes to the notion that shadowy figures run cern, rather than you know.. scientists.

Ever think that the archive footage simply wasn't digitized?

The footage shows several experiments being conducted at CERN, not all of them are in the big beam-lines, some of them are in smaller ones, some of them are not in beams at all. Most of the footage of older systems Not the LHC at all... a quick look at the history of the facility and even wikipedia will give you a list of instuments

Decommissioned accelerators
-The original linear accelerator (LINAC 1).
-The 600 MeV Synchrocyclotron (SC) which started operation in 1957 and was shut down in 1991.
-The Intersecting Storage Rings (ISR), an early collider built from 1966 to 1971 and operated until 1984.
-The Large Electron–Positron Collider (LEP), which operated from 1989 to 2000 and was the largest machine of its kind, housed in a 27 km-long circular tunnel which now houses the Large Hadron Collider.
-The Low Energy Antiproton Ring (LEAR), commissioned in 1982, which assembled the first pieces of true antimatter, in 1995, consisting of nine atoms of antihydrogen. It was closed in 1996, and superseded by the Antiproton Decelerator.


You might ask "Oh look that end cap of the experiment in the video looks really like CMS... yeah guess why? Because detectors built around colliders do have very similar structures and the basic barrel design hasn't fundamentally changed much in 50 years. They are not the same system at all.

*Sigh* its people like this who make me think we failed as a species

Congrats, you win the internet today. I think you're spot on on every point

a reply to: LABTECH767
LABTECH767,

I appreciate your coming at this from a laypersons perspective. Most of us do. But the thing is, so do I. But this is nothing to do with perspective, and everything to do with the importance of communicating concepts clearly and accurately.

Look, this is a dangerous time to be a person who thinks. Reality is being replaced with lies on every front, many of them lies supported by central governments, many of them lies designed entirely to entrap the unwary and waste the valuable resource which is the time of the citizen. Many of these lies have significant and serious repercussions, both those told in the purely political sphere, and those told in other fields.

In a time like this, it is vital to be absolutely, one hundred percent clear as to what you do, and do not mean. If you mean the Large Hadron Collider, you need to say so. If you are talking about the organisation who put it together, maintain it, and operate it, then you need to make that differentiation. It is not that it would simply "Be nice" if you did, it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. You are right, I knew what you meant, but I had to glance twice, and with respect to everyone reading from outside the membership, and indeed to some members here, human beings can be lazy minded bastards at the best of times. Many people reading your writing there, would have read what you actually WROTE and gone away with the wrong impression, just because they are afflicted with being poorly informed and unused to improving that situation. Many others would have read what you wrote, been confused, and then, rather than gone to the slightest effort to clear it up, will WILLFULLY extract the wrong impression, and gleefully stumble down the rabbit hole of ignorance, despite the protestations of their unconscious mind.

Giving people a route by which they might be incorrectly informed, in an age where intellectual pursuits and persons are considered relics of a bygone era, rather than elements of an emergent future, little more than inconvenient voices amongst an otherwise homogeneous and ignorant whole, is to render ones entire commentary meaningless, because the intention of discussing these matters in the first place, is to improve the understanding that anyone reading the discussion has, about the subject involved. In order for this to occur, given the stubborn disregard that many people have for anything more complicated than a 500 piece jigsaw puzzle, clarity is not a luxury, but the bare minimum we have to deliver in order that our commentary does more good than harm.

As for my handle, I am aware that this nation is and always has been a happy little mixture of this, that and the other, a soup made of invaders and conquerors, as well as those who could be considered native to the isles, which is why I find the idea of racial purity ridiculous and the habit of only dullards and villains to be over fond of.

The reason I chose this handle, is that I am enamoured of truth, and love my country in a realistic sense, enough that I refuse to ignore its failings, preferring, where possible, to call them out so that all may see them for what they are, the better that we may, one day, come together as a society and correct these things, rather than leave them fester in the wings. I am a patriot in the truest sense, an enemy of fascism, a promoter of tolerance between religions and cultures operative within our society, an advocate for citizen leadership, as opposed to having governance inflicted upon us by unaccountable persons, unfamiliar with real life, and not caring for it in the slightest. I am the TrueBrit, because I love my country with full awareness of its faults, without the necessity to lie to myself about the place I love, and because Truth has greater value to me than mere comfort.

There is such a thing as a True Brit, and anyone who lives here can be one. Its about mindset, more than genetics.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Absolutely brilliant response and I can do anything other than totally agree with you.
I am afraid I definitely fell into that Lazy minded :%^"!%^$ category on this occasion (and plenty of other's to my shame) and you are also making a very important point since ATS is actually or was actually cross referenced by Google and several other search engine's so yes that was wrong of me and I should have said LHC there is no getting around that by arguing Symantec's.

I like your idea of what a true brit is, for me though it is someone that shares most of our cultural values and also has an ancestor here over over 100 years, now both you and myself can argue some indigenous ancestry as well perhaps even lineage that may predate the Roman's (Why does that always make me think of Monty Python's life of Brian the Woman's and the Hernia incontinentia scene - yes I have an immature bone in my body I am certain) but I am probably (maybe) far more mixed than you with both Jewish (Ancestral maternal line) and Maori thrown into my soup bowl as well as of course traceable both Saxon, Norman, Irish, Scot's and Welsh, though estranged from him and not regarding him as anything to do with myself My genetic father's - father was a sailor torpedo'd (got to be careful in what company and what context you say that and exactly how you phrase it) three time's, he had three ships go down under him and saw most of his friend's die in the war.

But back the like the First world war in which brave men were shot and called coward for suffering shell shock the condition known as PTS was not recognized (it is arguably still not today - properly) and his last best friend survived a week after being de mobbed then put his own head into a gas oven and ended his own life.

My maternal grandfather was military intelligence and fought the IRA of all people before the war (I have ancestors on both side of that divide) and unspecified duty's during the war, he had been given a new identity and a position in Canada before the war though as some idiot in a newspaper up here in Liverpool had blown his cover after he had prevented an attack on a high profile target by the IRA (Royal family) in the 1930's (I am not a royalist, had Diana lived maybe that would be different).

My mom's two brothers both lied about there age and while under age (thousand's did the same thing back then) ended up fighting the Jap's in Burma, another relative, was walking down the street in Liverpool with his brother beside him when a German bomb fell (so I assume it must have been black) and blew him to smithereens - there was nothing left at all and his brother standing right next to him was completely uninjured but of course in shock.

My nan had a lodger whom she thought was a respectable guy, he had was either a Jewish guy or pretended to be one but was actually a German spy, one night during black out my nan had a knock at the door and it was the air raid police whom ran upstairs and grabbed him in the loft bedroom, they had seen him flashing a torch at the sky.

Before he lied about his age Alfie had picked up a ticking bomb that had landed on the step of the house and carried it away from the house, it later detonated.
The only thing I know of my mother's father family whom were Manchester people was that only some of the Brother's survived the war
So we are just like you, typical true brit's.

And like yourself I do not like the BNP or any of those hypocrites, back when I was still well enough to work I even had a quiet argument with a bouncer whom was a local BNP representative, I was in security myself and I did it by suggesting that he must have some ancestry that was not English and he then denied that he did so I said he must be inbred then he became a little angry but of course since I was the same size as him and we both did similar job's he was more leery than maybe he would have been, I then suggested maybe has might have some welsh, Irish or Scot's which he rabidly denied so I then pointed out that English is actually a derivative of Angle's and were they came from as well as the Norman's etc and the Dane's and the fact the Celt's were the same people more or less as the Irish, Scot's and Welsh which left him unable to argue his point any further but it left me realizing that most of them are not that bright.

So I fully concede your point and you are absolutely correct I should have been more precise or just kept my big munce shut (figuratively speaking of course)

It's simple:

CERN (the organization) itself has been around since the 1950s, and it has built and operated several different particle accelerators/colliders since than. The LHC is the latest accelerator they built.

originally posted by: AlexandrosTheGreat

...There is video yet possibly faked of he digging in black and white, the payphone looks like a phone I've never seen, and 1993 had YouTube and realplayer music vids? I didn't even have text based prodigy till 95 lol

1) That black-and-white film in your second video is showing one of the earlier accelerators the CERN used, not the LHC.

2) It's not a payphone, but some sort of 1950s/1960s phone that was somewhere in the CERN facility back then, and not necessarily in the accelerator itself but possibly in the office areas. Considering CERN is a very "Euro" place, it does not surprise me that the décor they had in the 1950s and 1960s for their offices is a 1950s/1960s Euro-styling.

3) Have you never heard of MTV and music videos? MTV first came on the air in 1981 and showed music videos, many in the style of the one in your vids. The point is, music videos existed a long time prior to YouTube and "realplayer".

a reply to: LABTECH767

Probably a little off topic but your family linage just like my own and probobly many others is what peeves me regarding Brexit.

Millions of good Men fought, died, and bleed sweet and tears in two world wars supposedly to unite Europe for the next 1000 years and 25 years later we are departing a union that those good people gave there lives to ensure came into existence.

It's all well and good being a true British citizen, christ i can trace my family name back to William Turnebull who apparently saved Robert Bruce and before that we were Vikings but seems to me our nation and it's people were meant to be part of something so much bigger which we are now on the verge of destroying.

a reply to: andy06shake

Yes I actually agree, I did make the mistake of voting out because like about two thirds of voters whom went to the poll's for the referendum I was undecided and so made an on the spot decision, one that I actually regret, cost of living will rise, imports including electrical good's and household item's as well as food will increase and once again we will be hostage to the oil company's whom will charge pretty much whatever they want at our petrol pump's.

My only problem with the EU was the unregulated immigration and the porous borders with non EU nation's, the massive influx of Islamic migrant's as well but we had all those problem's with the commonwealth anyway and it look's like getting out of the EU will actually do absolutely nothing to stop that at all so it was really just a con we all fell for.

a reply to: andy06shake

Can I just point out andy06shake, that no. No one, not a single human being who fought in either world war, did so for the purpose of uniting Europe.

The First World War, was fought largely because some sap shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, herself a Duchess, as they were proceeding down a street in Sarajevo in their carriage. By way of the treaties between the nations surrounding the nation in which it occurred, the nation from which the victims came, and by other treaties besides, were all the nations of Europe dragged into a bloody conflict, largely stemming from the stupidity of one individual, and the deaths of two others.

The Second World War was fought, primarily because failure to do so would have plunged the entire world into darkness and tyranny which, for all that there are still tyrants today, would make their most excessive acts to date, seem like a Women's Institute baked goods sale. It was fought because fascism is wrong, and must be crushed, because the people living under the rule of the Nazis were in desperate need of liberation, and because the Nazis threatened the entire world with being overrun and subjugated, with many of the worlds peoples being under threat of enslavement or simply being murdered outright, by the very Nazis aforementioned.

Those wars were NOT fought to unite the peoples, the nations or the ideals of Europe, under either one flag, or one governance. The Second World War, particularly, was fought to ensure that people and nations were free of domination by any one flag or governance, specifically to free them from that state of affairs, protect their people from tyranny, and liberate those who were on the point of death through either starvation, or mass execution. That is what the Second World War was fought for, and for NO other reasons than those stated above.

Its also worth pointing out, that many of the men who fought the Second World War, spoke out strongly against joining the EU in the first place, my grandfather included.

In summary, those wars were NOTHING to do with a united Europe, in the least, and no one who was there during either one of those wars, and knew the remotest thing about why they were there in the first place, would say otherwise.

a reply to: TrueBrit

The league of nations pretty much had a united Europe in mind just after the first world war, around 1920.

How it came about was generally down to banking houses wishing to unite the continent for there own financial and political gains no matter who shot Franz Ferdinand or how many poor people died in the Holocaust there does indeed seem to be general agenda at play.

Just look at who profited from both sides during the conflicts in question to see that there was some form of plan in action.

"No one, not a single human being who fought in either world war, did so for the purpose of uniting Europe."

Depends how you look at it, a lot of those people fought to protect there very freedom and way of life. And to prevent racist eugenics freaks from destroying minorities as well as to protect there own nations.

Granted they probobly had no idea as to the out come eventually leading to the inception of the European Union years later but that does not mean they did not die for the purpose of a united Europe, just that they did not know it was in the pipeline.

End of the day not that many soldiers back then ever really realised what they were fighting for long term, just that they were doing there duty and protecting there family by doing so.

Both those conflicts were waged for a far greater purpose than mere assassination or Hitlers invasion of Poland, of course that's just my own opinion.

But if you follow the monies it paints the picture.