I was admitted to the ER: here's how much it cost

a reply to: Trueman

Yes, yes. When you have severe chest pains, take willow bark and get some rest.

The ER is there for a reason.

Broken leg, Tib/fib fracture, my foot was pointing off at a ninety degree angle to my leg.

Air ambulance into hospital. 5 days in hospital. Iron nailing operation to fix it, where they drive a titanium rod down inside your leg bone to piece it all back together.

Total cost to me: £0.

originally posted by: Ghost147
Is there any actual evidence that this is the case.

Yes, there is a ton of evidence that shows that, when people do not pay medical bills, that causes the cost to rise for other people. Keep in mind, though, that I did not say that this is the only reason.

I mean honestly, how is his situation stealing? $40,000 for a 5 day stay for a heart attack is absurd. There's a difference between stealing and being charged an insane amount that almost no one could afford

Did you know that, at least here in America, most hospitals and care facilities are more than willing to work with you on the cost of treatment, especially if you can show that it is a massive financially burden, and doubly especially so if you aren't using insurance.

The problem with LookingForABetterLife's assertion that he/she is unwilling to pay ANY of the cost. Period. That's not only irresponsible, but it is theft because, at the very least, one should be more than happy to pay what they can toward their medical costs, especially after having a heart attack. It takes a special type of entitlement mentality to think that someone is entitled to all of that time, effort, products, services, and skills that went into treating them at absolutely no cost to them. That type of thinking is cancerous.

Are you honestly justifying this charge?

I said nothing of the sort--I called a freeloader who was seemingly proud of the fact that they are unwilling to pay ANY of their medical costs that could possibly have saved their life. I said ZERO about anything concerning my opinion on the cost of the treatment.

Look at it this way. In the states, the medical system is profit based. In places with universal health care, it's not, so companies aren't grossly inflating services just to make more money.

Let's look at it this way: Less than 1/5 of all medical facilities that have emergency medical capabilities are for-profit organizations. So, while some are for-profit, the vast majority of them are not.

Your assessment as to the motivation of the cost of services is either woefully ignorant (for the most part--I'm sure that there are some facilities that do participate in those types of shenanigans), or ideologically driven (or both, I suppose). There are many, many ingredients that go in to the issue that is the high cost of medical care in America.

i pay 10% of my income to taxes which contribute partially to a universal healthcare system which, in my lifetime, has saved me and my family thousands, of not hundreds of thousand of dollars.

May I ask what you pay for income tax?

Ha--I pay way too much for taxes because I live in a country that misuses and abuses my income to push political agendas that do little to better our own country (not to mention we spend way too much on things for other countries when we neglect our own). But honestly, that is irrelevant to this discussion, and that goes back to my comment concerning the myriad variables that go into making our healthcare costs high in our country. I recently posted a retort to a user from Australia touting their awesome healthcare costs versus the US's, and it was easy, but tedious, to cite the vast amount of contribution to the world scale of healthcare by the U.S. versus every other country.

Look at it this way--it costs a company a lot of money to create, from R&D all the way to store shelves, a product. Yet, the consumer doesn't pay even remotely close to that cost when they purchase the end result.

The U.S. produces many products used worldwide, but not all countries help pay the cost of the process starting at the R&D stage--most non-US countries just reap the benefits of the relatively cheap cost of the final product.

Many of our taxes seem to go toward the total cost, including R&D all the way up to stocking store shelves. Also, many of our private dollars end up going to the same thing, because many of these other countries put arbitrary legal limits on the amounts that the socialized healthcare systems will pay for non-generic drugs.

I'm not going to rehash the many, many times that I've explained some of the multitude of reasons that our healthcare costs so much more than other countries, but suffice it to say that it's not all greed from hospitals and big pharma, and your low costs are not something that the U.S. could see and still keep making such massive contributions and new technologies--in that breath, the entire world would lose out on innovation and medical advances, all in the name of keeping up with the low cost that other countries can appreciate because, quite honestly, Americans subsidize their costs as well.

But, we can agree to disagree on the feasibility and viability of a socialized system that would cover all 320,000,000+ people in the US, and do so with massive affordability.

a reply to: Ghost147
Did they pop it back into place? I've suffered that quite a few times, but apparently didn't have the severity of yours. My chiro was always able to adjust it back into place and send me on my way. In fact, I'm going in tomorrow because I think I have that going on again. Active lifestyles can be a b**ch, ya know?

Was in a building fire.

For ambulance, oxygen, IV, it was $6000 (USA) was there for three hours

a reply to: Ghost147

Here in the US...
I went in to get some blood work to see what my iron levels were- on a bet, even. Just to see what they were- someone was convinced that my eating off of cast iron every day wasn't raising my iron levels, and I wanted to show I was right.
I was, by the way.

The bloodwork was $900.
Still waiting on the bill from the doctor to do the paperwork to go do the bloodwork.

All insurance does is allows the healthcare companies to jack the price to absolute insane prices. Then nobody can afford it without insurance, which justifies the existence of insurance in the first place.

Shut it all down.

originally posted by: LookingForABetterLife
You're statement was made without knowing my complete story.

I work with the information that I have. The way that you wrote that comment basically implied that, because of the high cost, you are not paying--that's it, without additional indicators as to why. Again, I work with the information given, and that's all that I can do.

Due to my disabilities I cannot work. However the US Gov. has decided that I have gotten better somehow and has stopped my disability payments. My health has only gotten worse not better like they claim. I'm fighting this to get my payments back and be able to get back on insurance to not be such a burden on society. With the help of a volunteer nurse I have been able to contact a non-profit organization to help with the bills as I have no means to pay such bills.

Ah, yes--relying on the federal government to appropriately determine one's ability to qualify for money under this-or-that program. It's a crap shoot, and I've been there myself, my wife has, many of my in-laws, etc. (mostly dealing with veteran-related issues). It's no fun, especially once they've maid up their mind on taking away said money.

But what this does is support my argument against giving the federal government full control over the healthcare system--when we put all of our eggs in one super-controlling, relatively heartless basket, do we really expect the system to get better?

I feel for your plight, I truly do, so please excuse the tone of my initial response. But the reality still exists that those who do not, for whatever reason, pay their medical bills, it does get redistributed to those of us who do.

Have a good day.

I wish you the same, and thanks for elaborating.

originally posted by: lordcomac
All insurance does is allows the healthcare companies to jack the price to absolute insane prices. Then nobody can afford it without insurance, which justifies the existence of insurance in the first place. [/
quote]
You are hitting a major nail on the head, here. Too bad there are so many nails needed to hit concerning diagnosing the cost problem of U.S. healthcare.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Yes, there is a ton of evidence that shows that, when people do not pay medical bills, that causes the cost to rise for other people. Keep in mind, though, that I did not say that this is the only reason.

Got any links?

I have no doubts that people whom actually abuse the system effect its cost for everyone, I'm moreso curious the amount that it effects it, rather than big pharma raising the bills because they can.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Did you know that, at least here in America, most hospitals and care facilities are more than willing to work with you on the cost of treatment, especially if you can show that it is a massive financially burden, and doubly especially so if you aren't using insurance.

That's fantastic, it's still not free. And I have my doubts that they're going to reduce a 40k bill to something under 1k

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
I said nothing of the sort--I called a freeloader who was seemingly proud of the fact that they are unwilling to pay ANY of their medical costs that could possibly have saved their life. I said ZERO about anything concerning my opinion on the cost of the treatment.

Good! I'm very glad to hear that. So what Do you think a visit to the hospital should cost? And would it not be better if it cost nothing at all?

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Let's look at it this way: Less than 1/5 of all medical facilities that have emergency medical capabilities are for-profit organizations. So, while some are for-profit, the vast majority of them are not.

That's fantastic to hear. so why the high prices?

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
There are many, many ingredients that go in to the issue that is the high cost of medical care in America.

Let's go off of ignorance. Could you elaborate.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Ha--I pay way too much for taxes because I live in a country that misuses and abuses my income to push political agendas that do little to better our own country (not to mention we spend way too much on things for other countries when we neglect our own). But honestly, that is irrelevant to this discussion, and that goes back to my comment concerning the myriad variables that go into making our healthcare costs high in our country. I recently posted a retort to a user from Australia touting their awesome healthcare costs versus the US's, and it was easy, but tedious, to cite the vast amount of contribution to the world scale of healthcare by the U.S. versus every other country

So I take it you're not going to let me know what taxes you pay?

This isn't a discussion about who's country donates more medical services globally, this is a discussion on what medical services cost for the citizens of a given country.

So yes, the taxes we pay is of great importance to the discussion.

We all know universal healthcare isn't 'free' because countries who have it pay taxes that contribute to that service.

If I pay the same or less taxes then you do, and you don't have a universal health care system, or free education or so on and so forth, then it seems that the tax system you're subjected to is far less valuable than mine.

In which case i have no idea why you're so adamantly defending your system, or putting down mine, or have any justification on your distaste for the word "socialist"

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: Ghost147
Did they pop it back into place? I've suffered that quite a few times, but apparently didn't have the severity of yours. My chiro was always able to adjust it back into place and send me on my way. In fact, I'm going in tomorrow because I think I have that going on again. Active lifestyles can be a b**ch, ya know?

Yes, the first visit seemed to improve the situation. Pain was still there, but it was more so a specific muscle that was very tense, instead of the bone feeling out of place.

I believe what happened the second time (4 days later) was that it somehow occurred again, but with a far more serious reaction

a reply to: Involutionist

I have no idea where the parking fees goes at our hospitals, probably into some execs pockets as they're run more like businesses now than care facilities, we're also not lucky enough to be able to tax deduct it lol so I think you guys win the best free health care

I had an emergency appendectomy two weeks ago. I just changed jobs a month ago, as such I lost my health insurance. My surgery bill was $34,000. That doesn't include the $3,500 for a CT scan, and another $2,000 for the morphine, fentanyl and dilaudid they gave me. I earn $25,000 a year at my new job. I am seriously considering filing for bankruptcy because of this. But Trump is making America great again remember?

a reply to: LookingForABetterLife

No, what I'm saying is you let it go too far, to the point where preventive medicine won't help.

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
You Americans should never have rebelled against us Brits. You would have much less crime, and a routinely unarmed police force as well as free healthcare at the point of delivery.




a reply to: kaylaluv

Ahh, but when we rebelled we weren't Americans! We were Brits!

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Just admit it: American healthcare system sucks bollocks when compared to other developed nations. No Canadian, British, French, Dutch, German, Aussie, etc is left with a huge medical bill that needs to be *renegotiated or financed*. Period.

To be honest: A percent comes out of our income tax (approx 900$/person) each year for us Canadians. My friend's son broke his leg a week ago. Total cost out of pocket for X-rays + cast = $0.00

The great thing about Canada's health care system is that most people can go to the hospital, get treated by a doctor and leave without ever seeing a bill. But this means Canadians often have no idea how much services cost.

How much does the average visit to the doctor cost? How much does it cost to have a baby? What about a hip replacement, heart surgery, or chemotherapy?

Here's a sampling of average costs for health services [that Canadians will never have to pay out of pocket for treatment].

www.cbc.ca...

I'm not going to rehash the many, many times that I've explained some of the multitude of reasons that our healthcare costs so much more than other countries, but suffice it to say that it's not all greed from hospitals and big pharma, and your low costs are not something that the U.S. could see and still keep making such massive contributions and new technologies--in that breath, the entire world would lose out on innovation and medical advances, all in the name of keeping up with the low cost that other countries can appreciate because, quite honestly, Americans subsidize their costs as well.

That's just propaganda made to justify the exploitation of the population for profit.

Cuba had done more for medical advancements alone. In fact, I think I might make a thread about it. I would LOVE for you to bring your knowledge and talking points to that thread when I do.

You do make *some* valid points, tho.

This thread makes me feel terribly terribly sorry for all normal Americans.

I'm sure it's fine for the rich. But the rest of you. Geez. Sympathies.

What I don't understand is the attitude of people who despair at their taxes being taken for universal healthcare, "free" education, etc. No, it's not free. Yes, it comes from your taxes.

Either way, in ANY of our countries, we are being -taxed-.

Would you really rather your tax money go to lining your politicians pockets? Going to excessive military spending?
Or would you rather your tax money go to something important: people's health and education.

I've been to the ER once for myself and once for my son.
I am SO GLAD that I live in a country where they value people's health over bleeding you dry.

originally posted by: Ghost147
I have no doubts that people whom actually abuse the system effect its cost for everyone, I'm moreso curious the amount that it effects it, rather than big pharma raising the bills because they can.

Let's play a simple game...you can peruse any of the links in this Google search that you would like to, and in return, you can provide proof to your claim/insinuation that big pharma (whom I will rarely ever defend) is dramatically raising bills simply based on the premise of "because they can."

That's fantastic, it's still not free. And I have my doubts that they're going to reduce a 40k bill to something under 1k

Well, I never claimed that it was free--no healthcare is free. Taxes, which are from one's income, pay for socialized services--that is not free, either. When my private insurance coverage pays 100% of something, my first though it now, "Wow, that was free!;' my first thought is, "Wow, I'm glad that all of these premiums that I'm paying are actually doing something."

Where did you get an arbitrary $1,000 amount? Is there significance tied to that number? I mean, most businesses, even not-for-profits, can't slash their costs to 1/40th the charged amount and still be there to provide their product/service.

Good! I'm very glad to hear that. So what Do you think a visit to the hospital should cost? And would it not be better if it cost nothing at all?

"Should cost" is a subjective opinion that I refuse to give in this matter, because it all depends on so many variables that it's impossible to give a "should-cost" amount, and anyone who is willing to give you some arbitrary number is guaranteed to be talking out of their ass basing their answer on nothing but hopes, dreams, and ideology.

Again, it never costs "nothing at all," so I would stop using that incorrect phrasing--it's misleading at best, and an intentional lie at worst to promote an ideological viewpoint.

That's fantastic to hear. so why the high prices?

I think that you're going to have to research that one on your own--I can't keep being expected to provide links to every variable of high prices in the healthcare system in the U.S. You are free to Google it and research it any way that you'd like to, but at this point, I'm growing tired of doing the leg work for those seemingly unwilling to look into it further.

Let's go off of ignorance. Could you elaborate.

Please see above, but really, many answers to your questions are readily available with a simple internet search and investing some time into reading things--things put out by relatively unbiased sources, mind you. It's easy to spin this topic a million ways from Sunday if one wants to. Put on a critical-thinking cap if you decide to dive in...it's a deep rabbit hole, but worth investigating.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
So I take it you're not going to let me know what taxes you pay?

It's an irrelevant question--the relevant question would be how much of my taxes go to a medical system (Medicaid/Medicare) that I cannot access, on top of what I am forced to pay to a private insurance company or face federal monetary punishment if I don't buy said product.

But I definitely pay more than you do to my government...or should I phrase it, have more than you (percentage-wise) taken from me by my government.

This isn't a discussion about who's country donates more medical services globally, this is a discussion on what medical services cost for the citizens of a given country.

This is why I'm increasingly concerned about investing more time discussing this with you--you're missing the entire point of how the bulk of the world's medical contributions fall on the financial shoulders of the U.S. and its citizenry, and that's part of the nature of the beast of being such an innovative and productive country, globally speaking, in the medical field.

Imagine, if you will, what it would cost if Canada was forced to suddenly create all of the medical technology and develop all of the drugs and procedural innovations that come out of America on its own from this point on, from R&D to final product. Imagine that the citizenry of your country had to pay the bill for all of that in one form or another, be it taxes, increased costs of products and services, etc. Your cost for healthcare would also skyrocket.

That's a very simplified way to look at it, but it's a valid part of the discussion concerning US healthcare costs versus Canada's.

And for the record, I'm not necessarily defending our system, but what I am doing is pointing out that it's easy for those on the outside of our borders looking in to sing the praises of their cheaper system, when a major reason that it's so cheap is that our country does the bulk of the world's studies, R&D, innovating, and modernizing of the healthcare system worldwide.

I'm not in any way looking for gratitude for what the US does, just some willingness to accept that you benefit greatly in your wallet from the things that we do south of your border--let's not pretend that your system and our system are apples and apples.

I'm asking that you properly weigh all of the variable, instead of seemingly throwing out arguments that appear to fail in understanding of the myriad issues that make us pay more than you. Our system isn't perfect, but I'll tell you, the American federal government usurping control over all of our healthcare would absolutely not make it cheaper, or better in any way.

I know, because I have access to both the VA hospitals in America (government-run) and private insurance and hospitals, and I opt for private hospitals 99.9% of the time, save for my annual check-ups. I don't despise federally administered healthcare just because it's the in thing to do, or based solely on ideology.

a reply to: Painterz
You don't live here--it's really not as bad as the most dramatic instances make it out to be.

a reply to: Ghost147

I broke some bones last year and was on intraveinous morphine for 5 days in hospital.
Didn't cost me a penny aside from regular taxes.
I'm in the EU.