30 years after the fall of the Soviet Iron Curtain, another one projected to exist in North America

a reply to: Astyanax

You're right! Where there's a will there's a way huh

a reply to: TonyS

Glad you spotted that.

Adrian never built a wall here.

That's been bugging me since the start.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Contrary to Trump’s Claims, Immigrants Are Less Likely to Commit Crimes

Oh, so you're using this article, that cites the DHS as noting that there is an estimated 1.9-Million non-citizens living in the U.S. who have committed a crime and could be deported? That is at least (because it doesn't cite if any othese are repeat offenders--and I'm betting many are) 1,900,000 crimes that could have been prevented if immigrants/non-citizens (legal or not) weren't living in the United States. And for every crime committed, there are multiple citizens affected in a negative way because of it, both directly or indirectly.

I'm not advocating for sealing the borders and never allowing people in, but to pretend that it's all good is--what's the PC term?--oh yeah, intellectually dishonest.

That article also cites that there are about 11-Million people living within our borders illegally--to anyone with a smidge of grey matter, that means that all of them are committing a crime, we just don't have the statistics to back it up because they haven't been caught/charged/convicted yet.

llegal immigrants benefit the U.S. economy

And then you follow up that article, which basically culminates in the last paragraph saying that our economy is better with illegals because there are always people willing to exploit them for cheap labor. But, hey...that equates to cheaper prices for all, so it's all good, right?!

Give me a break. The top article advocates the use of relativism to try and spin numbers, and the second article advocates the exploitation of illegal manpower for cheaper wages because it's a "benefit" to the economy.

I'd prefer to keep my moral compass pointing the right direction than to swallow that two-course meal of crap. Maybe I just appreciate the worth of human beings a little more than to subject them to increased occurrences of crimes that don't need to happen or to relegate them as cheap labor to be used and abused.

I grew up in Bakersfield, California, and I saw first-hand how back-breaking the work that these illegals do on farms is, not to mention the terrible conditions in which they're forced to live and the way that they are often treated by both their employers and some of the people who live around those areas. It's more often than not a pretty crappy scenario, and I will never advocate on behalf of the 'health of the economy' at the expense of these human beings, and I challenge ANYONE to come up with a reason why this sort of thing should knowingly continue in America that doesn't only look at the economy's bottom line.

But, I also understand that there is more than my opinion on the matter, but the bottom line is that, once you enter into (and especially if you stay) in the U.S. illegally, you are already committing a crime, and none of the 11-Million illegal immigrants are innocent of that.

a reply to: Tulpa

I'd guess that "Adrian" is the evangelized version of "Hadrian".
Hadrian was one of, if not "the", greatest of the Roman Emperors. Many of the Roman era buildings extant in Rome and much of the empire were built or re-built by Hadrian. He was quite the patron of the arts.
You can read about him at: en.wikipedia.org...

FYI, in Italy today, the female version of the name is "Adriana". I briefly dated an "Adrianna" when in High School in Rome. One of the most beautiful young women I've ever met and while definitely of the "Patrician" class her family was quite warm and friendly toward me, a mere barbarian "American". I have no doubt their wealth was vast. At a birthday party for Adriana in their "Palazzo" I observed that they lived in what could only be described as a Museum. Their wealth was exceeded only by their graciousness.

Which leads me to again ponder the question..........however in the world did the Uber rich of European society manage to save their fortunes through two world wars?

Peace be to no one who spreads the fear.

I would ask you to take a trip through Mexico unarmed, and outside of the tourist destinations, then get back to us about "but they just want to be loved" line.

Complete and utter BS opinions are floating around the net.

You should have to visit these cesspools before being qualified to make such statements.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Close enough:

Not really. All I got from those meetings is standard statesmen responses. I definitely see no support for the wall there. Do you not remember this?

President Donald J. Trump’s decision to build a wall along the southern border escalated into a diplomatic standoff on Thursday, with Mexico’s president publicly canceling a scheduled meeting at the White House and Mr. Trump firing back, accusing Mexico of burdening the United States with illegal immigrants, criminals and a trade deficit.

Does that not expect that Mexican government stability helps ensure less illegal migration?

The Mexican people, believe it or not, don't like America. They had to be convinced by Pena to support the US' policy to deport illegals from their own Southern border. If we antagonize the Mexicans, they can easily just stop that enforcement and let all those Central and Southern Americans through with no problems.

Meanwhile, I dont need anyone to tell me that more Mexican gang bangers in big cities, like Chicago, are a good thing, because I already know that it isn't.

Not all illegals are gangbangers and I already showed you that immigrant neighborhoods along the border of the US have lower crime rates.

Meanwhile most of Florida cities the Hispanics are 90% Cubans. But in outlying agricultural areas they're 90% Mexicans. I've lived in both. Out herein Tomato country the Mexican's are already well integrated permanently into the population. And there are only so many tomato picker jobs. Meaning more competition only harms the ones already here. So spare me your link, as I already know there are well too plenty of illegals in general here now after decades of inflow, while more means its harder on the ones who have settled down. And lets not forget that the truly migrant types Western union half their money out of the nation, and thats after get paid tax free.

I don't believe your statistics or percentages without sources, and I will not "spare you a link". I happen to like proving my argument and posting facts is a great way to do it.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
that institutionalized racism

If businesses dont want to open storefronts in black inner cities, where getting robbed is a routine and riots over criminals getting killed by the police, are a constant threat, does that make a business racist?

Let us know when you go out of your way to open a store front in such a place.

This is a leading question and has nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm talking about when I mention institutionalized racism.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

You know, I read this and to a large extent you are mostly correct, but I just gotta wonder. Why ever in the world doesn't someone suggest a guest-worker visa made readily available at the border for those who want to work in the fields and construction jobs in the US? How damned hard could that be? You bag'em and tag'em at the border and send them off to work and at the end of their 3 month or 6 month shift, they're free to go home to wherever juarez Mexico to be with their families! End the "anchor baby" idea and set up Home Depot type lots.........at the Mexican Border for people wanting to hire farm workers for the season; they can pay the $50.00 cost of the guest-worker visa; meet them on the US side and bus them up to the tomato farm or whatever. It has been reported in the Christian Science-Monitor that there is a looming shortage of field hands and we're already seeing that in Texas. And as a final thought, I was in NOLA just days after Katrina and I know from first hand personal experience that "illegals" from Texas and later, elsewhere, largely rebuilt the homes and businesses after Katrina. If they'd been here in the first place on guest-worker visas, they wouldn't have been illegal in the first place.

Sorry..........it just doesn't seem like so much rocket science to me.

a reply to: The angel of light

Oh, that is funny!

Tell that to the King Priest Pope Of Rome.

I am sure they would tear down those walls and welcome refugees with open arms into the Vatican.




Actually, I think they would laugh at the concept.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
I'm not advocating for sealing the borders and never allowing people in, but to pretend that it's all good is--what's the PC term?--oh yeah, intellectually dishonest.

As I told Ignoranceisntbliss, I am not saying that we have 100% open borders. I'm saying that our laws are good enough as it is. We don't need new laws or even worse, a wall as they would be wastes of money and the new laws would hurt our economy.

That article also cites that there are about 11-Million people living within our borders illegally--to anyone with a smidge of grey matter, that means that all of them are committing a crime, we just don't have the statistics to back it up because they haven't been caught/charged/convicted yet.

That's just a technicality. We all know that the types of crimes it is talking about here are crimes OTHER than border hopping.

And then you follow up that article, which basically culminates in the last paragraph saying that our economy is better with illegals because there are always people willing to exploit them for cheap labor. But, hey...that equates to cheaper prices for all, so it's all good, right?!

It may not be good but it is the reality of our economy.

I'd prefer to keep my moral compass pointing the right direction than to swallow that two-course meal of crap. Maybe I just appreciate the worth of human beings a little more than to subject them to increased occurrences of crimes that don't need to happen or to relegate them as cheap labor to be used and abused.

So you support instead sticking them into human rights violating private prisons to be shipped back to Mexico or point of origin to live in squalor and a hell hole?

I grew up in Bakersfield, California, and I saw first-hand how back-breaking the work that these illegals do on farms is, not to mention the terrible conditions in which they're forced to live and the way that they are often treated by both their employers and some of the people who live around those areas. It's more often than not a pretty crappy scenario, and I will never advocate on behalf of the 'health of the economy' at the expense of these human beings, and I challenge ANYONE to come up with a reason why this sort of thing should knowingly continue in America that doesn't only look at the economy's bottom line.

But, I also understand that there is more than my opinion on the matter, but the bottom line is that, once you enter into (and especially if you stay) in the U.S. illegally, you are already committing a crime, and none of the 11-Million illegal immigrants are innocent of that.

You know I'd rather clamp down on immigrant exploitation than kick out the immigrants right? I see that as the more humane approach.

a reply to: missed_gear

The point missed_gear that you seems to ignore is that there is more than a million American citizens living in Mexico, they have done their lives over there. It is estimated that another million is living in the rest of Latin America, where the migration laws are very flexible with Americans.

Young Americans find well paid decent jobs In Mexico that here are inexistent, everybody knows that just crossing the border to the south makes you eligible to a English teacher position in a lot of private schools, with work visa granted by hour employer. They pay several times more for such a job than in in any public school in the states.

Now the retired people are making more with their pensions than what they can make here, many of them are even in position to open businesses in a stage of their lives where they believed were done.

If America becomes xenophobic and also aggressive against Mexicans and Latin Americans in General we can expect the relatively friendly migration laws of those countries toward our nationals also will change.

American companies sell millions to markets that are extremely open to their products in Latin America, that is another extremely crucial economic sector that is in risk with all this rhetoric to blame Latin America of the problems of USA. Those companies are generating a lot of jobs here that will disappear for ever.


Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: TonyS
In your scenario, when they're free to go home after three months is up, who has been tracking them and who enforces their exodus?

That's the problem that we're facing right now--we can't track them (11-Million estimated to be in the country right now), and we don't enforce their deportation enough to deter them from staying illegally (or as a punishment for breaking the law--you decide).

a reply to: Mandroid7

You don't need to go to Mexico to suffer terrible crimes, that is happening in the less expected places in large American Metropolis.

The reality is that the current violence in Mexico is not worst than the high levels of criminality we are seeing in cities like Miami, Baltimore, Newark, Philadelphia, Detroit, where the police and authorities are overwhelmed by the criminals. The weapons that are used in Mexico by bandits are all imported from here.

If the border with Mexico is literally closed we are going to have not drug trying to enter through it, but directly entering though our principal harbors, as it was the situation in 1980s in Philadelphia, New Orleans, Miami, New York or Los Angeles.

The domestic Cartels that control the distribution of those illegal substances are going to continue doing their crimes not in the middle of the dessert as it happens today, but inside many of the most crowed cities of the country.

Countries where the production of drugs is a problem like Colombia or Mexico, that have been in war since decades with only our moral and economic support, they possibly in reaction to our hostile policies will decide to do not control anymore that activity, what in the long run will increase the entering of those substances to America.

There is right now as much as Narco traffic into the country from British Columbia than from Mexico, the difference is that while in Mexico Drugs are absolutely illegal in that part of Canada are legalized. The same can be said of Puerto Rico or Hawaii, where the controls are insufficient to control the black market.

The terrorists that were involved in Sept 11th of 2001 entered not illegally but with students visas and mainly through Canada and Europe, this because it is very clear that the current controls of the Mexican and American migrations working together in the border make such a thing almost impossible in that region.

If Mexico stops to control the illegal immigration into the States from other nations we are going to lose a very important filter to protect us from external violence.

The border region is protruded by a web of underground galleries counting natural and artificial tunnels and caverns, No wall will stop that to be used by criminals, if the Mexican authorities cease their patrol.

Add to that also a hostile policy with respect to Cuba that was also one of the electoral promises of the same politicians that are pushing the idea of the wall and you are going to see if we don't have in addition a million Cubans trying to enter at once in Miami and its surroundings.

I suggest you to consider that your sources of information are evidently biased and sadly wrong.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
As I told Ignoranceisntbliss, I am not saying that we have 100% open borders. I'm saying that our laws are good enough as it is. We don't need new laws or even worse, a wall as they would be wastes of money and the new laws would hurt our economy.

I agree with you on that point. The problem, though, is that we have laws and regulations that govern immigration that are perfectly fine, but they haven't been enforced efficiently, effectively, or consistently enough, almost to the point of invalidating the laws, and certainly to the point where it's obviously a safer bet to take your chances with a coyote bringing you across the border than to stay in your apparently defunct home country.

The legislation isn't the problem, it's the enforcement, but I'll walk hand-in-hand with you in affirming that our current immigration laws should be enough to keep things under control--it's the enforcement than needs many helping hands.

That's just a technicality. We all know that the types of crimes it is talking about here are crimes OTHER than border hopping.

Not, it's not a technicality, it is reality. Yes, in general, they are talking about crimes above and beyond their illegal entry or stay in the US...but that wasn't my point. My point is that they're already criminals to begin with--the crimes about which the story is alluding are icing on that illegal cake. I was just reminding people that we shouldn't dismiss the crimes that all of them have already committed.

It may not be good but it is the reality of our economy.

And I don't like that reality, and it's a reality that I'd be willing to pay a bit more at the grocery store or in the housing market. The reality is that, often times, these jobs are tantamount to human exploitation, where their pay and living conditions do not meet federal standards. Reality or not, I'm not okay with it.

So you support instead sticking them into human rights violating private prisons to be shipped back to Mexico or point of origin to live in squalor and a hell hole?

That's not the only other option...but something tells me that you know that, and you're just trying to appeal to my emotions.

You know I'd rather clamp down on immigrant exploitation than kick out the immigrants right? I see that as the more humane approach.

See? I knew that you didn't really think that private prisons and deportation was the only option!

And, since it's not a perfect world, I'd agree with that, too, but clamping down on the exploitation would negate your article that pointed out and applauded how great the exploitation is for the economy. So, which is it...a better economy, or actually treat these hard-working people like valued human beings? I vote for the latter, and I bet that you do, too.

My only beef--and it's been recurring ad nauseam for decades--is that it's morally corrupt to give those who violate the law a pass on immigration while those who have been responsible human beings and been undergoing the arduous (and expensive) legal path to immigration watch this unfold from the sidelines. We must do something to deter the illegal immigration (i.e.: Much better and stricter enforcement of immigration laws) before we can give a pass to those here with good intentions and who are living within our laws (apparently, 82.7% of the 11-Million people here illegally). Once we negate the ease of illegal entry into our country, only then can we discuss amnesty for those here--and I'd like to see the legal immigration process streamlined, too, which would help promote legal immigration.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
I agree with you on that point. The problem, though, is that we have laws and regulations that govern immigration that are perfectly fine, but they haven't been enforced efficiently, effectively, or consistently enough, almost to the point of invalidating the laws, and certainly to the point where it's obviously a safer bet to take your chances with a coyote bringing you across the border than to stay in your apparently defunct home country.

I disagree. I feel like they are being enforced just fine.

Not, it's not a technicality, it is reality. Yes, in general, they are talking about crimes above and beyond their illegal entry or stay in the US...but that wasn't my point. My point is that they're already criminals to begin with--the crimes about which the story is alluding are icing on that illegal cake. I was just reminding people that we shouldn't dismiss the crimes that all of them have already committed.

They are only criminals in the same way that a drug user is a criminal. Because the government said so. Not because of any sort of immorality or violation of ethics though. Criminality like that can change with the stroke of a pen.

And I don't like that reality, and it's a reality that I'd be willing to pay a bit more at the grocery store or in the housing market. The reality is that, often times, these jobs are tantamount to human exploitation, where their pay and living conditions do not meet federal standards. Reality or not, I'm not okay with it.

This is why we should be focusing more on stopping immigrant exploitation than kicking them out. When we focus on kicking them out, it makes it harder to identify and fix these problems because the immigrants never speak out and identify them out of fear of deportation.

That's not the only other option...but something tells me that you know that, and you're just trying to appeal to my emotions.

I wish there were other options, but if we are kicking them out of the country THAT is the route they go through. And Sessions, our new AG, is all about increasing private prison usage, which mostly house illegals.

See? I knew that you didn't really think that private prisons and deportation was the only option!

Of course not, but discussions like clamping down on immigrant exploitation never arise because we are so focused on the discussion of straight up kicking them out of the country.

And, since it's not a perfect world, I'd agree with that, too, but clamping down on the exploitation would negate your article that pointed out and applauded how great the exploitation is for the economy. So, which is it...a better economy, or actually treat these hard-working people like valued human beings? I vote for the latter, and I bet that you do, too.

Well I'd like the best of both worlds. Maintain the immigrants but improve their working conditions so that they can better benefit from the economy too. But I'm also a realist. I understand that despite its dark connotations our economy relies on these people. We can't just kick them out of the country and expect things to be the same or get better for the legal citizens.

My only beef--and it's been recurring ad nauseam for decades--is that it's morally corrupt to give those who violate the law a pass on immigration while those who have been responsible human beings and been undergoing the arduous (and expensive) legal path to immigration watch this unfold from the sidelines. We must do something to deter the illegal immigration (i.e.: Much better and stricter enforcement of immigration laws) before we can give a pass to those here with good intentions and who are living within our laws (apparently, 82.7% of the 11-Million people here illegally). Once we negate the ease of illegal entry into our country, only then can we discuss amnesty for those here--and I'd like to see the legal immigration process streamlined, too, which would help promote legal immigration.

Before I continue here I'm going to let you know that I am good buddies with a Chinese guy whose family has been trying to legally immigrate here for the better part of a decade. I know all about his problems with the legal process and given what I've learned about how it works I understand fully why people forgo it. For one, it is WAY too expensive and the people who are hopping borders tend to be broke. For two, the requirements are ridiculous. Things like demanding immigrants travel to and from the States to the embassy in their home country.

If we want to use the legal avenue as a cudgel to beat the illegals over the head with, then we first need to seriously overhaul how it works and make it more accessible for less affluent immigrants.

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: missed_gear

The point missed_gear that you seems to ignore is that there is more than a million American citizens living in Mexico, they have done their lives over there.

I never missed that point or allured to such a point, but ok.

These "American's" came illegally? Abuse and use the social welfare system?? (which little exists)...bog down court systems and fill the jails with 1/3 of their presence? Get deported, come back and still commit crimes? Those "Americans"?

I guess I missed your point.

It is estimated that another million is living in the rest of Latin America, where the migration laws are very flexible with Americans.

Legally...with many exceptions, but please shed the light.

Young Americans find well paid decent jobs that here are inexistent, everybody knows that just crossing the border to the south makes you eligible to a English teacher position in a lot of private schools, the ones that pay several times more for such a job than in in any public school in the states.

I have never seen proof. Prove it.

Now the retired people are making more with their pensions than what they can make here, many of them are even in position to open businesses in a stage of their lives where they believed were done.

Not true. Many person ONCE retired south of the US, not so today.
The laws are hard and a very, very low percentage own businesses there. I know retirees, it was once that away, but cheaper to retire elsewhere....safer and cheaper.

If America becomes xenophobic and also aggressive against Mexicans and Latin Americans in General we can expect the relatively friendly migration laws of those countries toward our nationals also will change.

Money is money to any government, those you mention require assets to move there..no? I know a great deal about this...explore it please!

Apples and oranges.

American companies sell millions to markets that are extremely open to their products in Latin America, that is another extremely crucial economic sector that is in risk with all this rhetoric to blame Latin America of the problems of USA. Those companies are generating a lot of jobs here that will disappear for ever.

The "American" economy supports with Billions and Billions....upon Billions

mg

originally posted by: TinfoilTP
Total bull#. The Iron curtain kept their Soviet citizens from escaping the tyranny of communist rule. Trumps wall is keeping illegals out so they have to immigrate the legal way like everyone else in the history of this nation did.

A pure piece of Russian propaganda.

Didn't you know...the wall is to keep Americans in...geez

originally posted by: The angel of light

There is right now as much as Narco traffic into the country from British Columbia than from Mexico, the difference is that while in Mexico Drugs are absolutely illegal in that part of Canada are legalized. The same can be said of Puerto Rico or Hawaii, where the controls are insufficient to control the black market.

Pot isnt a narcotic, and pot is 'legal' Puerto Rico now too.

Mexico could decriminalize crack, it wouldn't change that cartel drug war there.

Actual narcotics are what more drive the cartels; pot just stokes their networks.

The cartels grow here too.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Dude said stregthening the borders was an agenda.

Trump's open ambition was a wall.

Dude didn't disagree then.

That's how it happened and you remembered incorrectly.

Whatyever politics they're playing now whatever.

FACT: The two way flow of cash and drugs and guns is fueling the Mexican cartel wars. Period. It has severely destabilized their government, law enforcement and society as a whole. PERIOD.

Therefore, if you actually gave a hoot about Mexico and Mexican's you'd be all about stopping the drug flow at the borders.

You do not.

I dont care about padded data from border towns. I know for a FACT there are countless Mexican gangbangers in US inner cities & prisons, that they feed off the cartel's border wars operations, that there is a correlation between open border policies and gangbangers, that more immigrants compete with everyone for jobs (including blacks & other immigrants), and that it drives up crime and oppression in urban cities.

You spin the subject with "institutional racism", but the reality is its all on you liberal demogoges.

It's way over your pay grade, like all the other Democrat sheep, but the real reason its a Dem party platform is to appeal to people irrational racial biases because people are well known to react to race sensitivity than just about anything else. Meaning, even though many hispanics think with their wallet and sense, most will fall for their race baiting games and vote Democrat. If it was about the well being of Mexican's as a 'race', then there would have been tough border controls all along to stymie the cartels efforts to blow up the nation down there. Just like is Democrat's cared about black or anyone else whom is poor then they'd be all for an iron border to reduce the impact of unfettered migrants on the jobs market.

The numbers dont lie:

On this issue, Democrat's do.

Whether you agree with the wall or disagree, whether you see it as a physical or physiological deterrent or not the one thing never talked about it this is all about human trafficking. Hollywood wants to paint a picture of little Pablo just trying to do good, but there is a much darker side to all this that is never addressed or ever put an ounce of effort to fix. Makes one wonder on which side does all the invisible support and money go to...for human trafficking or against it...

People just want to turn a blind eye to the bad side like there isn't a big issue and put all the pain and suffering on trying to stop human trafficking and not the other way around.