US Support For Israel

Disclaimer

For those intending to use this thread for the purpose (whether openly or deceptively) of promoting or excusing anti-Jewish sentiment, anti-Muslim sentiment or trying to derail the thread and get it removed, then I strongly encourage you to leave immediately. That is not the purpose of this thread and I will not support your freedom of speech if it becomes apparent that you are trying to do this. I take ZERO responsibility for the consequences you face if you decide to ignore this clear and specific warning. You have been warned.

Introduction

It's one of those topics that most people are afraid to go near because delving deep into the issue might confirm some uncomfortable truths or force one to consider whether they have unwittingly been using lies to justify their position. Well, I am going to try my best to be as objective and reasonable as possible. If you read the opening post in full, it is almost certain you will be rewarded psychologically in some way from doing so and will have a broader perspective on the issue than before you read it.

Before continuing further, please remember that I am a human being who is not above error or making mistakes. I do not have unlimited time and resources. I can misinterpret and misjudge things on occasion, but I do try my best to prevent these things from happening. If you feel something mentioned in this opening post is grossly inaccurate or far more biased than it is objective, feel free to reply with reasoning.

Outline

It is important to understand the history of US support for Israel. If you have only vague ideas about the history, then I encourage you to do some unbiased research. I will be focusing on the present in regard to US support of Israel, but will refer to past events that relate to present circumstances when necessary.

I will present a series of arguments that are in favour of the idea that US support for Israel is both right and beneficial, then I will present a series of arguments that are against the idea that US support for Israel is both right and beneficial. I will then summarise objective conclusions after contemplating both sections and then applying logic and reason. Finally, I will give my own conclusion.

Those in favour of US support for Israel

- Israel is the only nation in the world that is officially considered to be a Jewish nation with a predominantly Jewish population. Regardless of how many Jewish people are scattered throughout the world and how prosperous they might be outside Israel, the country itself is still a minority.
- A homeland for Jewish people is necessary considering the history of persecution and oppression Jewish people have faced. They are not the only people to have been hated or oppressed over the years, but they have been disproportionately hated or oppressed compared to most people. Therefore, it is important that Jewish people have the option to move to a country where they are guaranteed not to suffer persecution or oppression due to their religion.
- Israel has more in common with core USA values than it does against them.
- Compared to most countries that surround Israel and are part of the whole ME region, Israel is a relatively secular and free country where the majority of citizens are treated with respect and have equal rights.
- As an ally, Israel provides strategic advantages to the US in the Middle East. They do have other bases in other ME countries, but the relationship between other ME countries is not as strong or reliable.
- For those who have religious beliefs that are in favour of supporting and protecting Israel, it is understandable that they, even while living outside the nation, feel they are obligated to support Israel and ensure her safety.
- Israel is a technologically advanced and socially progressive country.
- The US, as a superpower, is likely to have tremendous influence on the actions of other countries' attitudes and behaviours towards Israel. As a minority, US should give Israel the benefit of the doubt before harshly criticising it.
- It is very likely that if the US were to stop supporting Israel completely, then Israel would be in grave danger of being destroyed, which would mean the death of over 8 million human beings, many of whom are not Jewish.

Those in opposition to US support for Israel

- There is no concrete constitutional, legal or moral obligation for the US to support Israel beyond the support it gives to any other country.
- US support for Israel in its current form comes at a great financial cost to US taxpayers. Especially when considering the level of financial benefits it reaps in return.
- US support for Israel harms the reputation of the US for countries that view Israel as an oppressor and threat to their survival.
- US support for Israel strongly endorses the idea that the US agrees and supports all actions of Israel in regard to its treatment of the Palestinian people.
- When it is clear that the vast majority of member states in the UN wish to pass resolutions critical of Israel, the US almost always prevents this from progressing further. Just because a country is an ally does not mean they are beyond criticism. Moreover, if this behaviour by the US is consistent over many years (which it has been), it then seems like the US is going beyond its duty as a member to give special treatment to Israel for no justified reason. This harms the reputation of the US within the UN as a just and fair member.
- If religious people feel strongly about supporting Israel, they ought to personally give support or organise a group that specifies its intent to achieve this. They do not have the right to force religious and non-religious taxpayers who do not share their beliefs to do so. The number of people who support Israel based on religious beliefs alone are far outnumbered by those who don't.
- It is not clear whether Israel could remain self-sufficient without the current strong level of support from US, but it is very likely they could if defence from foreign states was not as a big issue for Israel as it is currently.
- There is credible evidence that Israel has on several occasions in the past intentionally deceived, betrayed and manipulated the US for nefarious reasons. This does not mean Israel is an inherently evil country that cannot be trusted, but it must be put into perspective when deciding whether to blindly trust Israel's current and future intentions when they relay information to the US.

[Continued]

Objective Conclusions

- Israel is a nation that has a right to exist.
- A resolution to the Israel-Palestine conflict is critical to establishing peace for both Israelis and Palestinians, as well as stabilising most areas of the ME.
- If the US is serious about establishing peace in the ME, it needs to re-evaluate its current approach because it appears unjustly biased in support of Israel. This will not resolve the conflict.
- At this present moment in time, the best suggestion for peace between Israelis and Palestinians is a two-state solution. It is unrealistic that two separate peoples with such different cultures, ideals and aspirations can coexist peacefully under a single state without one group suffering as a result. The US ought to support a two-state solution for this very reason.
- It is in the interests of the US, Israel, Palestinians and the entire world for both Israelis and Palestinians to have the majority of people in positions of power and the majority of people who represent them to have moderate views. It is pointless to have either group represented and controlled by people who view destroying the opposing group as a reasonable, necessary or acceptable policy to maintain.
- The past is important to guide us on how best (or best not) to act in the present and future, but it is not useful when it is used purely as a means to pretend that the context of today is directly comparable with the context of the past.

My Conclusion

My personal opinion on the topic of US support for Israel is this: The idea of the US, as a superpower, deciding to support a minority nation that is not in close proximity and does not bring much material gain to it is admirable. While there is no obligation to do so, I think it is beneficial for the US to support Israel to a degree that is reasonable as long as Israel's actions are not harming US interests in the process.

As of present, the US needs to be actively less biased in favour of Israel and more in favour of reason and justice. In its current form, US support of Israel is very harmful to the US and will continue to be until the US can openly assert some pressure on Israel without fearing public opinion.

I hope this opening post has had a positive impact on your level of knowledge of this issue. I also hope regardless of whether or not I was able to change your preconceived notions you had before reading this opening post that you took something valuable away from it. I also must acknowledge that I do appreciate and respect your decision to read the opening post in full. Thank you.

Disclaimer (repeated)

For those who intend to use this thread for the purpose (whether openly or deceptively) of promoting or excusing anti-Jewish sentiment, anti-Muslim sentiment or trying to derail the thread and get it removed, then I strongly encourage you to leave immediately. That is not the purpose of this thread and I will not support your freedom of speech if it becomes apparent that you are trying to do this. I take ZERO responsibility for the consequences you face if you decide to ignore this clear and specific warning. You have been warned again. If after reading this whole page you still cannot comprehend why this is necessary, I highly recommend you do not post a reply in this thread.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I see opinions--evidently yours--scattered throughout the text and you set the elements for responses, a bit absurd. I would think that you know better being a long-time member.

a reply to: Aliensun

Care to give a few examples of "opinions that are evidently mine?"

The only 'setting of the elements' I did was state unequivocally at the beginning and end of the thread that anybody who thinks, before reading it or after reading it, that they are entitled to turn this into an anti-Jewish or anti-Muslim thread, or try to derail excessively in an effort to get it shut down should leave. Rather fair, isn't it? How could anyone, except one of those types that I mentioned, think that is counter-productive in any way?

Are you here to derail or would you like to discuss whether you agree or disagree with what is written in the opening post?

Well it's all pretty subjective, even in your "objective" conclusions.

Who decides if what Israel does or doesn't do furthers or hinders American interests? You? Me? Or policy makers?

Policy makers.

And you haven't even really touched (much) on why the US supports Israel, which runs the gamut of financial influence to military strength in the region to using Israel to counteract other countries, including Russia, doing stuff in the region. Just sorta glossed over that aspect of the relationship.

Far from being some great mystery as to why the big brother US is so benevolent to tiny little Israel, the reasons are ridiculously broad and deep.

As for your solution/suggestion that it would be better for everybody if people "over there" just got along and didn't want each other dead...I mean...duh?

Israel are the cheapest aircraft carrier in the US fleet, stationed in the most explosive area in the world
Financially, Israel is the most important base outside the US
From their, the US has access to controlling the largest energy supplies accused on earth

Leave the religion out and understand the military benefits of a friendly nation hosting a nation so many thousands of miles away from where all the action is.

Common sense really

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Israel, is a terrorist state.

The USA supports many terrorists so their undying support for Israel is not surprising. The dual citizenship within the US government who are loyal to Israel first is quite surprising and most Americans are unaware of these "allocations" within our government, nor are they aware of the Israeli lobbyists who dictate American policy.

The US doesn't support Israel.

We are controlled by Israel...

a reply to: Dark Ghost

You are approaching this at or near the diplomatic level and for that I commend you.
But sadly, this is the wrong place to do so.
Here, childish brinkmanship of out posting one another is all that counts.

Buck

Israel is a can of worms even when looked at biblically alone. Now throw them into a secular world and it then becomes impossible to coherently define them .Add the dimensions of money ,religion ,and military it then takes you to places far far from common sense . If the US can wage wars based on its National interests and be justified then does that not open the door for Israel to do the same .

Israel has become like the tree in the garden .Best to leave it alone and let God handle it .He has already said that He would make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to the Nations .This goes very very deep and is being played out on all levels weather seen or unseen .

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I know how to slant words to achieve the desired result. Maybe strange to you, but without citations, every word you wrote is your opinion.

Furthermore, I was also attempting to tell you that you cannot tell us how to respond as you surely know already but wasted words do so anyway. You gain no support in issuing that command. You lost your focus and derailed in part your own thread from the start.

originally posted by: Mikehawk
a reply to: Dark Ghost

Israel, is a terrorist state.

The USA supports many terrorists so their undying support for Israel is not surprising. The dual citizenship within the US government who are loyal to Israel first is quite surprising and most Americans are unaware of these "allocations" within our government, nor are they aware of the Israeli lobbyists who dictate American policy.

The US doesn't support Israel.

We are controlled by Israel...

I'd say this is the most realistic and factual assessment.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

hile there is no obligation to do so, I think it is beneficial for the US to support Israel to a degree that is reasonable as long as Israel's actions are not harming US interests in the process. As of present, the US needs to be actively less biased in favour of Israel and more in favour of reason and justice. In its current form, US support of Israel is very harmful to the US and will continue to be until the US can openly assert some pressure on Israel without fearing public opinion.

Sorry, but no.

There is no chance of this ever happening because their interests are tied up in a tight love knot nobody can untie. You are analyzing it like a fourteen year old doing their homework; dreadfully naive.

There were two wars for your very nation. They were both bloody and horrible. All wars are. Israel is strategically VITAL to the U.S if it wants to remain a Super Power. Look where it is and what it gives access to as an ally.

Israel is a self determining nation and acts within the law. I know that is hard to swallow, but it does. If not then it would be taken to court. If you feel so strongly go study law and see if you can find where Israel is breaking International Law.

Nothing you or I will change anything any way. There will be those who don't like Israel and those who do. However, the two nations have the same fate. They will have to sink or swim together. Neither one can exist with strength in the world without the other. I'll leave you to work that riddle out for yourself.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Israel is a can of worms even when looked at biblically alone. Now throw them into a secular world and it then becomes impossible to coherently define them .Add the dimensions of money ,religion ,and military it then takes you to places far far from common sense . If the US can wage wars based on its National interests and be justified then does that not open the door for Israel to do the same .

Israel has become like the tree in the garden .Best to leave it alone and let God handle it .He has already said that He would make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to the Nations .This goes very very deep and is being played out on all levels weather seen or unseen .

Although a bit cryptic. I think you said it best!

More at play than us mushrooms could EVER understand and if we were told the truth, it would be so mind blowing half of the worlds population would most likely have a mental melt down, while the other half took advantage of those who lost their minds!

a reply to: seeker1963

Although a bit cryptic. I think you said it best!

We can all get a vague understanding of the many "isms" we have to educate ourselves with to try to understand whats up ...Zionism is not your standard "ism" . My cryptic attempt was only done to reduce to the bare bones a subject that has volumes of work one can reference and at the end of the day will be left shaking your head in disbelief .

I don't believe there is any obligation on my part to present what you are referring to as "evidence" or "facts", especially when I never claimed anything I was saying were either, but even if I did make that claim and then decided to present these requirements after every single sentence used, there would still be many people who refuse to discuss the topic questioning whether my sources were reliable.

If I established my sources were reliable they would find a single instance where the neutrality of the source was questionable and use this to attack me for "falsely" claiming my source was neutral. Eventually the whole thread would be spent arguing over whether I can make a thread where I cannot 100% prove every single argument made. It would be a case of arguing over semantics that don't matter for the sake of not addressing the topic.

If you did read the opening post in full and did not understand the key message, here it is again: US support for Israel in its current form is harmful for the US and needs to be re-evaluated. In order for this to happen, the topic must be free in the public arena to be spoken about openly without fear of offending or being offended.

Most objections so far have concentrated on undermining my credibility and then using that as an excuse to avoid discussing the topic. This tactic has been used SO many times on ATS over the years, it is surprising some members are resorting to this tactic considering they can see by looking at my avatar that I have been here over 8 years. Did they really think I would fall for this and not call out what was going on? Do they think other members who are critical thinkers would just believe them and ignore the topic as a result?

originally posted by: Shamrock6
Well it's all pretty subjective, even in your "objective" conclusions.

No, it is not subjective. "Objective" in the sense it is was used in the opening post refers to "without bias or influence". It does not mean arguments that are "only provable with irrefutable evidence".

Who decides if what Israel does or doesn't do furthers or hinders American interests? You? Me? Or policy makers?

You know very well it ought to be US citizens, whether that includes the POTUS, policy makers or average Joe down the street. The point is the discussion does not enter a public forum so the overwhelming vast majority of USA citizens are not given the opportunity to discuss in the long-term whether US support for Israel in its current form is good for the US or not.

Policy makers.

If only policy makers are allowed to make that decision, and US citizens are not able to find out those policy makers' views before electing them, how can US citizens ever elect somebody who will make a fair and balanced decision on whether US support for Israel in its current form is in the best interests of the USA?

And you haven't even really touched (much) on why the US supports Israel, which runs the gamut of financial influence to military strength in the region to using Israel to counteract other countries, including Russia, doing stuff in the region. Just sorta glossed over that aspect of the relationship.

I did state in the opening post that having Israel as an ally provides strategic benefits for the USA. I did not go into detail on that particular point because it is not a factor that means everything else can be ignored and all is good.

It was not my intention to make compelling arguments to support one side or the other. I was presenting observations that summarise arguments that are in favour or against US support for Israel in its current form.

Far from being some great mystery as to why the big brother US is so benevolent to tiny little Israel, the reasons are ridiculously broad and deep.

It's no mystery at all. The US is so benevolent to Israel because those in power within the US political system have accepted the arguments in favour of supporting Israel without hearing arguments against supporting her. Arguments in favour of supporting Israel have become "self-evident" and policy makers keep promoting the same policies that reinforce that mistaken belief.

The reasons the US supports Israel in its current form are not "ridiculously broad and deep", the reasons why the topic is taboo for public discussion within the US are ridiculously broad and deep. In other words, the real mystery is why there cannot be an open dialogue about the topic in the public arena in the first place.

As for your solution/suggestion that it would be better for everybody if people "over there" just got along and didn't want each other dead...I mean...duh?

That was not my solution/suggestion. Maybe you should read over the opening post again. My implied (not suggested) solution was to allow US citizens the opportunity to see the topic being discussed in the public forum and be allowed to discuss the topic themselves without fear of causing offence just for wanting to discuss the topic.

There are a number of tangential issues the OP didn't get into surrounding US/Israel relations. For instance, 3/4ths of the annual aid the US provides to Israel is mandated by treaty to be spent on US manufactured goods and services. To my knowledge, there is no other nation on Earth that the US provides "aid" to that has a guaranteed 75% ROI right off the top.

The USSR sided with and armed Egypt and Syria during the (Egyptian aggression) Yom Kippur War. Nixon had little choice except to do the same for Israel, considering the status of the world at-large as a proxy war sandbox for a game between the US and Soviets. This marked a dramatic shift in US policy away from middle eastern nuetrality and acknowledging Israel's right to statehood, to siding with Israel and actively defending her statehood.

The following decade saw US friendly leadership fall in Iran, replaced with Islamic extremism, frequent combat initiated by Lebanon, and a slowly maturing relationship between the US and Egypt. It behooved the US to maintain a high degree of support for Israel because, frankly, when the Shah fell Israel was our only trustworthy ally in the region who also held any sort of military muscle and strategic location against further incursions by Soviet backed warlords. (Not to say the US was innocent in this... *cough* Saddam Hussein *cough*)

There was also the fact that the main "loser" in the US' backing of Israel was Palestine, then controled by the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which was considered a terrorist organization until the early 90s, when their first intifada marking the height of violence in the region came to an end.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
There are a number of tangential issues the OP didn't get into surrounding US/Israel relations. For instance, 3/4ths of the annual aid the US provides to Israel is mandated by treaty to be spent on US manufactured goods and services. To my knowledge, there is no other nation on Earth that the US provides "aid" to that has a guaranteed 75% ROI right off the top.

Interesting. Do you have a link I can read up more about how "3/4ths of the annual aid the US provides to Israel is mandated by treaty to be spent on US manufactured goods and services". I had heard something similar before, but was never pointed to a resource where I could learn more about it and confirm it for myself.

The USSR sided with and armed Egypt and Syria during the (Egyptian aggression) Yom Kippur War. Nixon had little choice except to do the same for Israel, considering the status of the world at-large as a proxy war sandbox for a game between the US and Soviets. This marked a dramatic shift in US policy away from middle eastern nuetrality and acknowledging Israel's right to statehood, to siding with Israel and actively defending her statehood.

That is a valid argument. But how does that relate to US support for Israel in its current form today? Are circumstances comparable now? I never stated nor implied the US should not support Israel (I in fact suggested they ought to support her). I asked whether the level of support and special treatment it gives Israel is just.

The following decade saw US friendly leadership fall in Iran, replaced with Islamic extremism, frequent combat initiated by Lebanon, and a slowly maturing relationship between the US and Egypt. It behooved the US to maintain a high degree of support for Israel because, frankly, when the Shah fell Israel was our only trustworthy ally in the region who also held any sort of military muscle and strategic location against further incursions by Soviet backed warlords. (Not to say the US was innocent in this... *cough* Saddam Hussein *cough*)

Hmm, that is a very simplistic description of what happened. Let me help you out: the observation that the "US friendly leadership fall [in Iran]" happened out of the US's control is laughable at best. Elements within US government bodies such as the CIA played an important role in removing the democratically elected government at the time and allowing for the situation where Islamic extremists were free to take over.

When the Shah (who was not a democratically elected leader by the people of Iran themselves) was removed by the people who did not ask for Islamic extremists to take their place, you mean.

Glad to see you are willing to admit that the US is not innocent.

There was also the fact that the main "loser" in the US' backing of Israel was Palestine, then controled by the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which was considered a terrorist organization until the early 90s, when their first intifada marking the height of violence in the region came to an end.

Palestinians are not innocent. They too have made or allowed bad decisions to be made by their leaders that harm their cause. However, it can be argued in most of those cases they were doing so out of desperation and not intentionally trying to derail any chances of achieving peace.

Whereas Israel has also made or allowed bad decisions to be made by their leaders that harm their cause, but it can be argued in most of those cases they were doing so out of intentionally trying to derail any chances of achieving peace and only a few times doing these things out of desperation.

A clear distinction that needs to be acknowledged. Neither are innocent. But one side has clearly been less sincere than the other when it comes to acting in ways to achieve a peaceful resolution.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

www.dbknews.com...

The real reason the United States is so heavily invested in this relationship is because such a partnership increases U.S. political influence, enhances its military capability and helps stimulate its defense sector. Yet, for Israel, it makes them militarily, politically and economically dependent on a foreign power. Almost three-fourths of the more than $3 billion in aid has to be spent on U.S. goods and services; moreover, under the new agreement, Israel will eventually have to spend all the aid with U.S. contractors. This means spending money purchasing defense equipment abroad, which also debilitates Israel's defense sector and its ability to make its own weapons.

www.washingtonpost.com... bbd53d2b5d_story.html?utm_term=.44fd01f06d33

In another concession that was controversial in Israel’s ­defense industry, Netanyahu agreed to phase out a special arrangement that for decades has allowed Israel to spend 26 percent of U.S. aid on defense research, development and procurement. No other country receiving U.S. funding is allowed to do so. But Israel was granted that exception in the 1980s so it could build up its nascent defense infrastructure. With Israel’s defense industry now thriving, the Obama administration wanted U.S. aid directed to American companies providing goods and services.

In, I believe 10 years, 100% of US aid to Israel will be required to be directly spent on US goods and contractor services. We're essentially getting double benefits off of the aid money to Israel... garnering good relations with them while seeing the money find its way right back to us.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

The only rationale for continuing along the path set during the Cold War is that the region has fallen deeply into strife fueled by Islamist leaders taking over countries previously ruled by secular leaders. The US should have left Hussein alone and then taken steps to prevent the Arab Spring from happening (alongside bitchslapping Saudi Arabia's House of Sheik for their creation of Wahabbiism... but that's a different topic entirely.)

I sort of agree with you, we created this mess in many ways. That doesn't mean we should pull any punches or show any concessions when we eventually clean it up, though.