Fed up with the Anti British apologists..

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport

Dorset is lovely, but not my neck of the woods.

I live on the north shore of the Thames estuary.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Much of a Muslim population in your neck of the woods?
Hardly any to speak of here on Devon's SW coast, just a few who own corner shops, regular friendly shopkeepers who all sell alcohol.

I've never had any trouble off a Muslim, as probability would expect due to such a small demographic.
I have however on a few occasions had to defend tourists in Islamic dress who were getting abuse, called terrorists etc.
Thought I'd bitten off more than I could chew once with a large group of youths, but when I shouted at other men walking past asking do they not care, they backed me up and the group dispersed.

The people could have been whatever demographic, and I'd have defended them, I have a thing against bigotry and bullying.
Also, our economy relies on tourists so prick youths putting them off coming back here is never good.

I still wouldn't wanna live in Luton though!

a reply to: grainofsand

Actually, regarding population, yes there is.

For a start, four of the businesses down my road are Muslim owned, including one pretty well regarded, award winning Tandoori restaurant. It is not a large shopping parade, so they occupy a decent chunk of the business space down this road, and are pretty solidly represented in terms of business spaces rented or owned, across the whole of my town.

From newsagents to Kebab shops, from furniture stores to pharmacies, there are Muslims getting seriously involved in my areas businesses, and of course, these businesses have staff living in the area, some of whom share the owners beliefs. Also, there are Muslims working in your high street staples, like Sainsbury's, Boots, TK Maxx and, well, near enough everywhere.

My town has three mosques, and the one around the corner from my best friends place, is usually quite busy, folks going in and out, things going on, lots of people around, whenever I go past it on the way to my friends place anyway. On the way home, less so, but that is normally at stupid o'clock in the morning!

I have said it before, and I will say it again, my town is not a monocultural one. We have people from all over the world living here in Sunny Southend-On-Sea, and I have only EVER had trouble with folk who, lets say, appeared to be of local heritage. Its not Muslim youths getting into gangs and causing criminal damage, stabbing one another to death over dealing turf, setting fire to buildings for the sheer hell of it, or showing a lack of respect to people other than themselves.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Probably 98% of crime in my parts is by white non-muslim people, but that is merely reflecting the population demographic here from the last census.
Massively multi cultural in the summer though, tourists from all over the world.
Full burkha on the beach doesn't look fun to me, but it harms nobody so whatever.

@truebrit...Sigh...You live in a small town near Southend yet you comment as if you live in a major city, do you realise how skewed that is?

Btw, Tandoori is an Indian evolved food so if the owners are Indian they are very likely NOT to be Muslim, there's no good blood between the fanatics in Pakistan who are Muslim and the Sikhs in India or even the Christians there so there's no real chance of convert either.

Do you really base all your views simply because your little town is free of the issues we suffer from?

That seems to be the way you look at it, that is as narrow minded as you can get.....Come on geezer, be better than that!

We have real radicals (please stop focusing on Muslims in general when I'm targetting radicals, its a crappy way to try and tar the thread for the wrong reasons. Here in West London and greatly in Harrow we have a large rather radical content, I can take you to Hanwell Mosque where I'm just back from and I'd be delighted to introduce you to the rather hateful but proud to be Radicals, you would know they were Radicals because they would tell you so, fact.

But I'd also introduce you to the drug gangs MOSTLY ran by Somali's in this area and Somali's support the most radical form of Islam because that one ignores their perchance for drug dealing, prostitution, theft and violent robbery so that's the one that got their tick in its box from them...Who says there's no perks in religion..

I'd then take you to the Acton Mosque which makes the Hanwell one look like Disney Land in comparison, the support for Sharia there is MASSIVE and has been the place where many of the early terror suspects used, in fact there were three Islamist fanatics sentence many years ago for plotting terror, one was a ginger haired convert, they used to walk past my back window daily selling drugs on this very estate, one of the guys arrested but released is a major king pin in the distribution of drugs here and he's hard core radical as well.

But back to that in a min, I have kept plugging that radicals are dangerous because they are random, they will simply choose to kill in a whim rather than a planned attack on behalf of and as we look at the news there's a breaking story from Stockholm where a lorry was driven in to crowds so far killing 3, shots were fired and its already been named as a terrorist attack. Although this does not seem to happen just outside Southend it IS happening in the bigger world and people are dying simply because this monstrous ideal is being forced down Europe's throat and it must submit or this keeps going on. Now call me old fashioned but how many so called religious groups with fanatical sub groups actually carry out attacks in this scale and across so far...I only know one but as they seem to have not visited Southend or close as yet I doubt you will see them, but don't worry, at some point they will be on the dodgems near you.

Seriously, you say Muslims do not need a talking to, well apart from trying to make this about Muslims in general AGAIN and not the radicals I CLEARLY said you are actually WRONG. In the Islamic world there are 3 types of Muslim, the nice normal fluffy Muslim who is a credit to their religion and nice people all around, then there's the Moderates and then the Radicals, now the tricky thing is that the Moderates are really Radicals but pretending to be more moderate in the hope of getting special deals etc while behind the people they are dealing with support the Radical viewpoint, sort of the Nasty Travellers of the Muslim world, promise you a great drive way but do a really #ty job, you get my drift. Now this is why Muslims in general and I include my in laws here is that they protest about these radicals when talked to but happily sit in the same mosque as them during prayers yet these Radicals are giving all decent Muslims a bad name yet when it comes down to keeping the house straight they shy away from ousting them from Mosques and giving info to the Police..They need a good talking to for that alone.

So to finish, you are keeping a wildly blinkered view point on the Radicals, I'm telling you how it IS out there from first hand experience and all you do is say "well I don't see it so it can't be happening" or the tired but classic 'its only a few idiots' which I seem to remember hearing this from an MP just before 7/7 here in London. Sorry but I look at this from the idea of the poor person or persons that are killed by one of these cultist nutters and I say that is already one to many deaths, I don't follow it by the seeming allowed collateral damage view you have, sorry Truebrit but ONE is and really is too many from a group of people who have by pledging allegiance to Sharia and terror groups to wipe us out, these are not Hari Krishna's getting in your way on Tottenham Court Road while you try and shop, these are people who are dedicated to as they see it, defending their god and they take it very very seriously so are incredibly dangerous. I could go in to the rather intense psychological things at play in their heads that make them so deadly but that is for another time. Stop treating them as 'harmless in the scheme of things', that poor tourist who was mown off Westminster Bridge and has died today should not have to be a allowable statistic because it makes people feel safer. If its so bloody safe why are we at the second highest terror alert solely based on Islamist attacks and why has this been the case for years if its not a serious issue.

Is this because we are looking for planned attacks only, NO, its because we are in the impossible situation where it really can be anyone at any time and you would not only not see it coming but there's just random undesignated targets.

In my world that is not a safe place....And in the real world we really are only looking for one set of people when it comes to terror attacks, according to you the ones who are no real danger in the scheme of things.

You see, I don't fit the thug mentality ideal for racist to be used, I'm reasonably educated, been very well paid over the years but also had all the crap life can throw at you as well with my daughters severe fight against anorexia which almost killed her. Al the money has gone and I live on an estate but I see what is going on and its not good.

I'm glad you do not see it but its still there regardless...

I wish you every peace and health, its a discussion after all this, I'd still buy you a pint depending what its a pint of

Paul..

a reply to: Mclaneinc

The Tandoor is a food preparation system which may be Indian in origin but is not exclusive to India, in any way. Many Muslims eat food from Tandoors.


And I did not say that radicalism is not in existence. What I said was, that because it is a tiny, insignificant percentage of Muslims who engage with it, that it is statistically irrelevant, and that fact has not altered one iota since I first uttered it. Nor has the fact that to make changes to the way Muslims are treated as a result of the actions of a tiny minority within that demography, would be wrong, regardless of threat posed by them.

And as for my "little town", what you may not be aware of is that my town has historically and currently, been used as a dumping ground for the worst elements, banished from London boroughs for whatever reason. And yet, despite all of that, we STILL have relative peace, there is no war on our streets despite the fact that the dregs of London get pumped down here with regularity, and forced into a concentrated area.

a reply to: TrueBrit

How many deaths are required for the Muslim extremist issue to become 'statistically relevant' to you? Ten, a hundred, thousands?

And before you deflect with denouncing treating people differently, I am not advocating that, I am asking specifically how many deaths before you consider Muslim extremism something other than an insignificant percentage of the wider demographic?

a reply to: grainofsand

It would have to be at least as bad as, oh, I don't know, the number of teens murdered by gang culture following morons.

There were one hundred and 185 teenage murder victims in LONDON alone, between 2005 and 2015. That dwarfs the number of people who have been killed in the whole COUNTRY in the same period, as a result of terrorism. Heck, the number of people who have been starved to death or driven to suicide by our government in the last few years knocks both those numbers into a cocked hat.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Ah, interesting you have provided a demographic as a point of reference.
So if I understand you correctly, as long as less innocent people are killed by Muslim extremists than teens in London killing each other each year, then the extremist murders remain insignificant as a statistic.

I bet you wouldn't look the mothers of recent victims in the eye and say that.

a reply to: grainofsand

Actually, I could quite easily turn to a mother of a recent teenage murder victim and tell her honestly that my heart goes out to her and her family, and that I consider the loss of her son or daughter, and the number of teens being killed in the capital and around the country as a result of gang culture and other street cultural factors, to be of greater concern than all the terrorism inflicted on this nation in the last fifteen years.

That is how strongly I feel about the issue. Terror is a trifling matter next to the horrific edifice that is the number of young people being wiped out by violence every year. It is as absolutely nothing at all next to the number of people, total, who have been murdered, no matter their age, by gangs, by violent spouses, by mentally ill persons who have fallen through the laughable structure that is our mental healthcare provision in this country. These I consider a much greater problem, one worth far more resource in combating, due to its scale, than is terrorism.

Also, it is worth pointing out, that terrorism is a consequence of government policy here, and in the USA. It could easily be prevented, if governments were prepared to cut off the supply of guns and money through intermediaries, which are used to fund these organisations, and if we were prepared to cut ties with Saudi Arabia and other parts of that system. However, getting people to see further than blowing up the nearest nation with a high number of burka purchases is not possible when they refuse to see past their anger.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Agreed, stop meddling in middle East affairs, pour resources at teen knife violence in London, and also take a mature stance with appropriate resources directed at tackling Muslim extremism.
What could you possibly argue against that?

a reply to: TrueBrit

Islamic extremism has been an issue for a far longer time than before Western countries started unjustly bombing Muslim countries. It was an issue before Israel was even created. That is something I never used to understand, and don't think you quite do now. Western interference in Muslim countries has undoubtedly caused Islamic extremism to flourish and pose a bigger danger to the whole world than it was before, that cannot be denied by anybody being objective about this issue. But you cannot ignore one problem by focusing on another and expecting both to be solved.

I'll give you a good example: The 2003 invasion of Iraq. In my lifetime, I believe this is single-handedly the worst mistake the West has made so far that I am aware of. Discard the fact of whether it was or was not a just war (supported by US congress but not by the UN), discard the fact that Saddam Hussein was probably a terrible person, discard the fact whether Iraqis were overall happy or unhappy about his rule and wanted freedom. When you look at the sheer number of lives of innocent Iraqis that were lost, the number of Coalition forces that were lost, the staggeringly high amount of money that has been spent invading, destroying, rebuilding and training etc. If you consider all these factors and ask, is Iraq a better place for the majority of the nation compared to how it was before: the answer to anybody with a sense of reason and somewhat of a conscience is clearly NO.

Keeping that in mind: WAS Iraq a relatively nice place to live pre-invasion? No. It was awful for most Iraqis, but it was relatively STABLE. The conflicts between different extremist sects of Islam was kept relatively well under check by Hussein who ruled with an iron fist. If conflict between differing sects got out of control, he would ensure that anybody who dared to repeat this behaviour would wish they had not been born. Therefore it was kept in check relatively well as best as Hussein's forces could reach. Anybody who says Hussein was a terrible person is probably right, anybody who says he was an example of a great leader is probably demented, but anybody who says that his type of rule was not necessary and he needed to be removed for the goodwill of the Iraqi people is either probably stupid or wilfully lying.

The key problem with the decision to invade Iraq was that the USA and her allies that took part did not UNDERSTAND that Hussein was a necessary evil to maintain stability in the ME. Instability in the ME used to be only a real problem for all the ME countries themselves, including Israel. Now instability in the ME is a problem for the world.

Should governments or those in charge of individual countries be free to do as they please for as long as they please (regardless of how immoral, inhumane and oppressive their behaviour towards their citizens may be) without fearing intervention from foreign countries or global bodies? That is the question nobody, even myself, has an answer to.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Interesting thoughts
On that note, if UK/US start bombing the predominantly atheist nation North Korea, do you think ATS members will be equally understanding if western atheists join the resistance of their godless brethren?
I'm teasing of course but such a scenario is unlikely because unlike radical Islam, lack of belief in gods does not result in offence when such a position is questioned.
People with faith cause the biggest problems in my humble opinion.

a reply to: grainofsand

Interestingly enough the Australian experience is that its the Australian born Muslims or second generation ones that are the radicals I was in London in 1998 even at that stage white anglo saxons were at a premium but it seemed to be a European thing for example there are whole suburbs in Frankfurt of Africans and Turks where there are no caucasians.But in 1998 everyone got along its since then weve developed our problems and I think social media has a lot to do with it

a reply to: khnum

The majority of British Muslims who have gone to fight for IS are also home grown, born here.
Brainwashing from religious ideology, but of course some members here don't see it as a problem currently found in a particular religion.
I'm glad security forces are not led by some members here because they'd disregard the issue as statistically irrelevant.

a reply to: grainofsand

I have no problem with that.

But it has to be done in the correct order of importance. The appropriate resources to battle extremist fundamentalism are those one would use in shutting down the foreign affairs fiasco. The rest of the problem would solve itself over time. With no funding to propagandise, there would be no more underground network. It would die faster than a plant denuded of its root.

a reply to: grainofsand

There are many posters here ignorant of many things these days not just the nature of Islam,I find it telling that its harshest critics are those that have left the fold Salman Rushdie,Ali Rizvi,Raheel Raza etc.The globalist agenda is to get rid of the white race once great nations such as Germany are now shadows of their former selves and their citizens are totally ignorant that the Wahabbi sect is a total system legal,religious,financial,military and spiritual whose members are actively working towards replacing the constitution of every Western democracy with sharia law.

If you or I were to try to usurp the constitution guess what would happen.

Europe is finished the average European family has 1.8 children the average Muslim one 8 simple mathematics says its over in a few decades and I wont weep for it Merkel should of been strung up but she still has a 50 per cent approval rating-you cant sanction stupidity.

Now dont get me wrong there are some Islamic things of merit such as their banking system which we could take on board like Bruce Lee says take what is useful and toss what isnt.What isn't useful is the term multicultural society my nation is a one culture society but with diverse national backgrounds,most fit in but its about time those that dont piss off.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Well it would help if your Royal Family stopped doing arms deals with Saudi bloody Arabia

a reply to: TrueBrit

I disagree because your stance assumes that all Islamic extremism is inspired by outrage over western bombing.
Your scenario also requires that no Islamic extremist actions are inspired by a warped interpretation of Islamic teachings.
You cannot know that all Islamic extremism is inspired solely by western bombing.
You cannot know that Islamic extremism is never the result of a simple warped ideology and ruthless indoctrination.
I make no assertions unlike your good self.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I'm not from the UK but just letting you know it's not just a European issue. In fact Japan also has problems with it's Radical Muslim Migrants