Real Aliens? Real Spacecraft? Does the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis Still Hold Water?

a reply to: mirageman

As you know i agree. A large percent of everything unusual is deception, misidentification or mental illness.

But i also know from reading your posts for 3+ years that you just stop there.

Now that's reasonable...

But it doesn't advance the field.

Of course nearly everyone has given up...and there are close to zero new theories..

Personally I'm only aware of one type of new theory that interesting people are discussing (that i know personally)..and those are information-based theories.

Kev

originally posted by: vlawde

originally posted by: fromtheskydown You have obviously put a lot of work into your posts but all I am getting from it is titles, a paragraph or two of info that is neither new or thought provoking...links to a lot of websites and then a kind of 'Over to you' question at the end and no actual opinions from yourself. My apologies, but count me out, as this thread actually offers nothing in the way of stimulation or information. It's kind of like a general summing-up something we already know.

originally posted by: Moresby

originally posted by: fromtheskydown
You have obviously put a lot of work into your posts but all I am getting from it is titles, a paragraph or two of info that is neither new or thought provoking...links to a lot of websites and then a kind of 'Over to you' question at the end and no actual opinions from yourself.

My apologies, but count me out, as this thread actually offers nothing in the way of stimulation or information. It's kind of like a general summing-up something we already know.

I second this.

You know, I'm seeing a lot of posts like this lately, criticizing people starting threads because they didn't necessarily write a 55 page thesis, or mentioned something that isn't brand new. It's discouraged me from starting more threads. The OP put in time and effort on this and deserves respect

I did acknowledge the amount of work the OP put into creating the post, I just pointed out that for me, it lacked a stimulus to provide an argument. There is no personal opinion, rather it is just a summary of existing and probably well-known available information. Did you read my subsequent posts?

I highly doubt my reply is going to discourage the OP from continuing to post and rightly so. This is a forum...we are allowed to have opinions and if you want to make a post, then you should do so.

vimeo.com...

26:30

The greys are legit

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: charlyv

Here is that image in a much higher resolution:

Hi-Res Picture Link

It has been explained on here before as nothing more than a measuring instrument in the snow (a ruler)

......You are looking at a ruler placed on a snow-covered cairn to scale an object in featureless terrain. Yes, it is that boring. No mystery zeppelins here........

See : www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also the provenance of the photo has been researched and documented here : The Oldest Known UFO Photo Refuted

This is actually one of those old UFO stories where the data was available to resolve it once someone actually did the ground work.

Fantastic work on that debunk. After examining what you provided, I certainly concur.
Thanks!

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: mirageman

As you know i agree. A large percent of everything unusual is deception, misidentification or mental illness.

But i also know from reading your posts for 3+ years that you just stop there.

Now that's reasonable...

But it doesn't advance the field.

Of course nearly everyone has given up...and there are close to zero new theories..

Personally I'm only aware of one type of new theory that interesting people are discussing (that i know personally)..and those are information-based theories.

Kev

My answer is pretty straightforward. I don't really feel that it is up to me, a mere forum member, to advance the field. I don't possess any special qualifications to allow me to do so anyway. I do see a great resistance to the field being advanced though. Personally I think it's important to clear the chaff away from the subject. There too many people who are unwilling to let the mountain of evidence be chipped away at , just in case their favourite ufo cases are not actually as robust as they like to think. Others are financially locked into telling UFO tales on TV/radio, in books and at conferences. Their main motivation is preserving everything and resolving nothing to avoid going broke.

"When you eliminate the impossible; whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth!" as a fictional character supposedly said.

And for people who come up with new theories. Yes,it can be mighty interesting to chew the fat over them; I agree. But ultimately that's all they've done - created theories. Nothing proven.

The existence of extra-terrestrials is likely to be proven first by mainstream science, not ufologists. Hopefully that will then advance the field. Although I suspect a lot of people in it will just try and use it to confirm their own biases and say "I told you so".

a reply to: charlyv

As I said in a post above there is too much chaff in the field. A lot of the real deception actually comes from certain personalities in the field giving people what they want to hear to make money off of them. There is a deep reluctance to remove any UFO story from the narrative even when they have been debunked. In blockbuster cases like Roswell and Rendlesham there are bolt on stories which get weaved into the narrative as the years go by. Even the "Battle of LA UFO" isn't really a strong case when you look into it all.

a reply to: mirageman

I hear that.
Truth, and nothing but, else tainted.
Given that, what would you consider to be the best prima facie clearinghouse on the web today for cases that have been through the debunk gauntlet? I know Koi has a site, and there are others that seem good. Oddly enough, the data that my original post came from was from a site with many readers..

a reply to: charlyv

Don't get me wrong. A lot of people are not purposely being deceptive when it comes to UFOs. Much of it is caused by ignorance of all the facts. None of us can know everything and with this topic you have to be an expert in astronomy, astrobiology, psychology, theology, engineering, quantum physics and many other disciplines. Add to that - knowing the whole history of the UFO phenomenon, history itself and how the interference of the intel agencies have sought to influence the topic alongside others.

It's going to sound terribly self serving but ATS is probably one of the better resources for looking at UFO cases. Mainly because you will get varying opinions and can then make your own mind up.

There are other sites I like. But I recommend cross checking information on a variety of websites from the 'skeptics' , 'believers' and 'scientific' websites to get a clear picture.

For more sceptical (I'm spelling it in the Queen's English now) views then Tim Printy produces a bi-monthly pdf magazine on UFO cases : SUNLite

Jack Brewer is another author with a blog and highly critical view of ufology amongst other topics : The UFO Trail

Robbie Graham used to have a blog about CIA interference in sci-fi movies but has removed all of it's content because he's stuck it in a book (but by the power of wayback machine you can still read parts of it : Silver Screen Saucers (archived).

I like Kevin Randle's blog. He's more an ET believer but remains fairly objective : A Different Perspective

There is of course UFO Casebook as well for a farily widespread coverage of cases : UFO Casebook

Everyone will have their favourites so don't necessarily use my selection here as anything other than a starting point.

From a scientific point of view I often use Google Books historical records of : New Scientist

Every copy up to the early 2000s is archived there.

And there are now massive collections of old UFO publications here : Archive for the Unexplained

a reply to: mirageman

I love UFO chaff being cleared away.

It is a very helpful service that people such as yourself do.

Kev

I think that aliens are actually extra-dimensional beings.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Now that's reasonable...

haha, Ive thought the same thing, but it has to be more frustrating for him more than anyone given he is doing all the studying = )

a reply to: 111DPKING111

I believe that Mr. Mirageman actually does enjoy dispelling ignorance.

Im sure he is curious "about the truth" like anyone.

But he doesn't seem to be a biased and crazed researcher like many...who are desperate to prove sonething to fill some emptiness within.

Regardless of motive, he does us all a service.

Kev

originally posted by: mirageman

I suspect many of the highly popular stories of UFOlogy's ever present past have prosaic explanations like the above too. But because of a lack of data we will never resolve many of them.

+1
Imagine if every case that has existed came with a photograph or video. The number of cases would dwindle.

originally posted by: mirageman

"...the Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis is a scientifically valid hypothesis that is the simplest available to explain globally repeating, highly reliable observations by eminently qualified observers of solid objects under intelligent control with propulsion technology irreproducible by human knowledge...”
Brian Zeiler- Formulation and Predictions of the ETH.
LINK

It's funny, with all that's said in that verbose diatribe, it still comes down to him arguing the possibility. Whether that possibility is the greatest/best or worse choice or not, it remains only as a possibility until science can say otherwise. If alien visitation was a fact, there would be no need for an impassioned argument and attempt to convince us the believer/supporter is right. It would exist on it's own as a fact, no convincing necessary. These type of arguments don't convince anyone other than those that are easily swayed.

If SETI were to discover a signal from intelligent beings, the view of our galaxy and universe would change for the scientific community. Take the huge leap to intelligent aliens visiting and it would change and open the door that much more. Why would or should something so incredible and life changing be accepted with just stories or low-leveled evidence?

A question in general, not directed to you specifically. Star and flag for a thread that is thought provoking if you look deeply into it rather than just skimming over surface thoughts.

originally posted by: mirageman

It has been explained on here before as nothing more than a measuring instrument in the snow (a ruler)

I know it's suggested in the other thread that what is seen is a ruler from the time period sticking out of the snow. But looking at it closer, it appears, at least to me, to be a worn T-handle from something like a climbing pole that typically would have a sharp point on the end. I can see the perpendicular part (red arrow) of the pole at the center going down into the snow/frost/ice.

Who knows. Could be either one.

a reply to: mirageman

Jack Brewer's The UFO Trail is an excellent resource, not to mention, his writing and ability to engage in intelligent discourse is a real plus. Thanks for pointing out his work

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Im thinking more along the lines of frustration from the lack really good casesl Most of them have a good deal of uncertainty, especially for the more skeptically minded.

a reply to: 111DPKING111

Well I'm not a UFOlogist so there's no frustration for me. And the more deceptive and frustrating this all is for UFOlogists the more it confirms my hypotheses.

To be seen and experienced but never identified is one of the major points; as once the Phenomenon is absolutely identified, Religion, Spirituality, UFOlogy and other psyops will come crashing down---and nobody wants that, least of all the billions of humans who participate of their own free will.

Kev

One hypothesis that would seem just as valid as the ETH, while probably not true, is that mankind tens of millennia ago had far more advanced technology than now, with what we call flying saucers tasked with asteroid mining and protecting Earth from asteroid strikes but failing to stop an asteroid unexpectedly diverted by a comet from knocking the population back to the Stone Age, whereupon it was decided by those in space that they were too few with too little resources to do much for the displaced people back home but continued protecting Earth from any further asteroid strikes, while observing mankind's repopulation and development, being careful not to give them technology they might not be ready to use wisely. Supposedly in this scenario the Greys are work droids of some sort.

a reply to: mirageman

The dawn of the modern ‘flying saucer’ era is widely accepted as the day Kenneth Arnold reported seeing unidentified flying objects ‘skipping like saucers’ close to Mount Rainier in June of 1947. The ‘flying saucer wave’ that followed and the launch of official and unofficial studies into the topic once again drew attention to the skies.

Truth Arnold Did NOT Mention ... they were the Shape of a Disk

he described it more like a crescent shape with a tail in the middle ..

Yet ...

In Old Scifi Pulp Mags since the late 1920s had shown Flying Alien Space craft ... the Stereotypical Shape of Disk

Super Science Stories (1942 November )


Amazing Story's Quarterly Winter Edition ( 1930 )


(July 1931)





Wonder Stories Quarterly 1931

a reply to: Wolfenz
Floating City


UFO Disk's aka Saucers from 1930
Tilt your head to see the 2nd one in the background
its a typical UFO ..






pretty much like drones