Real Aliens? Real Spacecraft? Does the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis Still Hold Water?

a reply to: mirageman

I'll just come out and say it. The ETH has been on it's last legs since 1975:

The development of IDH as an alternative to ETH increased in the 1970s and 1980s with the publication of books by Vallée and J. Allen Hynek. In 1975, Vallée and Hynek advocated the hypothesis in The Edge of Reality: A Progress Report on Unidentified Flying Objects and further
en.wikipedia.org...

Not only were these two guys the functional fathers of UFOlogy, but they had more relevant data flowing past their desks and did more in-person research than most anybody since.

So while the psychological operation about the ETH is still very strong (you know, "Ancient Aliens" and all that), the people with the data haven't taken the ETH seriously for a very long time.

And although this topic isn't about the IDH, I'd say that theory is starting to get cracks in it too.

Both the ETH and the IDH (but escpecially the IDH) are prone to this phenomenon---UFO Religon

Dr. Vallee himself says that we need better theories..

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

There's more to this than Mr swamp gas and the other old guy from the 70s. Heard of the french cometa report.

COMETA (COMité d'ÉTudes Approfondies; "Committee for In-Depth Studies") was an unofficial French UFO study organisation from the late 1990s, composed of high-ranking officials and military officers. The study was carried out over several years by an independent group of auditors and former auditors at IHEDN (Institut des hautes études de défense nationale; "the Institute of Advanced Studies for National Defence"), a French military think-tank, and various other experts. The group was responsible for the COMETA Report (1999) on UFOs and their possible implications for defence in France. The report concluded that about 5% of the UFO cases they studied were utterly inexplicable and the best hypothesis to explain them was the extraterrestrial hypothesis.

www.ufoevidence.org...

rationalwiki.org...

The COMETA Report was prefaced by General Bernard Norlain of the Air Force, former Director of IHEDN. The preamble was by André Lebeau, former President of CNES (Centre National D’études Spatiales; "National Center for Space Studies"). The group was presided over by General Denis Letty of the Air Force, another former auditor of IHEDN. Other members included: General Bruno Lemoine, Air Force (former auditor of IHEDN) Admiral Marc Merlo, (former auditor of IHEDN) Michel Algrin, Doctor in Political Sciences, attorney at law (former auditor of IHEDN) General Pierre Bescond, engineer for armaments (former auditor of IHEDN) Denis Blancher, Chief National Police superintendent at the Ministry of the Interior Christian Marchal, chief engineer of the National Corps des Mines and Research Director at the National Office of Aeronautical Research (ONERA) General Alain Orszag, Ph.D. in physics, armaments engineer Outside contributors included Jean-Jacques Velasco, head of SEPRA at CNES, François Louange, President of Fleximage, specializing in photo analysis, and General Joseph Domange, of the Air Force, general delegate of the Association of Auditors at IHEDN.

Anyway...

a reply to: mirageman

But if the UFO topic is really related to ET, and someone on planet Earth knows that, then it has been kept totally watertight since whenever the discovery was made.

Some points we can glean from the Clinton admin..

It appears it wasnt so easy to get information and the man tried asking random admirals whats going on. - LINK

As Commander in chief, doesnt appear he knew or was briefed about what was going in Aera 51 till he made a special inquiry. - LINK

Bill hamstrung his investigation by appointing a CIA director with no experience and then didnt support the guy - LINK

And while HIllary and Podesta claimed they were going to get us the info, we never got an explanation as to why they failed the first time. - LINK

Aside from the Roswell report released in 1994, we know in 1995, President Clinton declassified millions of military and intelligence records, but not about UFOs.

Then the trail of what the Clintons did, tried to do or were prevented from doing goes cold.

What Mr Bassett and his many supporters find irksome, is despite all the current noise from camp Clinton about disclosure, he claims they have not spoken about the Rockefeller Initiative, what went on, and why it failed.

Nor have any of a 23 other surviving people who would have been aware of the initiative, he claimed.

These are made up of 10 from within government and camp Clinton and 13 campaigners or private individuals.

Mr Bassett said: "The Rockefeller Initiative did not succeed in getting any UFO files released and wound down in the Fall of 1996.

It does cut both ways, maybe there was nothing to find, unfortunately Bill Clinton probably wasnt the man to do it, couldnt even keep a schedule for press meetings.

a reply to: JimTSpock

There is lots of disinfo out there, yes.

I was speaking about people sitting on extensive data, not hobbiests.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Sure. Monsieur Vallée is well respected because the world began to catch up with his theories a couple of decades ago. He is also still with us. Whilst J.Allen Hynek is often pilloried for his "Swamp Gas" comments he sadly left this world 30 years ago. His legacy deserves much more respect than being remembered for an ill-judged comment. Hynek carried on his studies long after his work on Project Bluebook. Hynek also came to believe that UFOs were not alien spacecraft and we were faced with something much more complex....

I like his comment

I realised we don’t have UFOs........ only UFO reports.....

It sums the conundrum succinctly. Unless of course we really did have a UFO or two that he was never aware of.

a reply to: mirageman

That's why i showed Hynek some respect. He was originally a reluctant hatchet man, but after looking at the real data (more than he got at Blue Book, which was highly filtered), he came to the same kind of conclusions as JV.

That swamp gas comment really cost him alright.

I love that "there are only UFO reports" comment as well. It's pretty much true.

Oh sure there are hints of intelligence and nearly formless energy.

But thats (apparently) been on Earth since about forever. It has nothing to do with "UFOs", other than the fact that there are people who want us to believe in space ships which aren't there.

Kev

a reply to: mirageman

Sure. It's theoretically possible there was one nuts and bolts craft visiting Earth over the past 14 billion years or so.

But the millions of weird shapeshifting forms which are attracted to human consciousness is millions of times more prevalent. It drowns out the ETH completely, except as a minor arnchair exercise.

Kev

a reply to: 111DPKING111

Yes there is a much earlier precedent of world leaders being kept 'out of the loop' when it comes to the UFO topic.

I posted it in the Tom De Longe thread but will post it here so as people don't have to go clicking further links to see what we are talking about.

Sir Winston Churchill was re-elected UK Prime Minister in 1951. In the summer of 1952 (and probably prompted by the UFO wave of that year) he sent a memo to the Air Ministry.

"What does all this stuff about flying saucers amount to? What can it mean? What is the truth?"

The Air Ministry had already made a secret study (before Churchill came to power) but nonetheless did not feel it was worthy of briefing him on the matter until prompted.



Now perhaps that was because they genuinely found nothing and felt it unnecessary to include this in any brief to Churchill. Maybe the same was true across the Atlantic with Clinton and it is all smoke and mirrors. However I do see a possibility that a 70 year secret could be kept if some kind of contact or discovery of ET had actually only occurred once or twice and the secret keepers understand very little about it to this day. That is basically my theory of how the ETH could hold water.

I also think every case has to be judged on it's own merits and one answer just doesn't fit all in this subject.

Perhaps aliens thought:

"hey, let's visit that planet to see if there's any intelligence in there analyzing how they'll respond on knowing they're not alone in this infinite universe."

Then they came in and went away:

"sh#%, dude! they didn't even cared, all they do is selling movies and documentaries and memes about us. what a waste of clean, beautiful and years-light-ahead-of-them fuel."

I'm not sure about water, but coffee is still a go.

Frankly..."never trust a spook"/U.S. CIA agent has been my forte over the inglorious years, in relation to the two spooks, both [Hynek & Vallee], who tried to ramrod spooky theories down the publics throat about the UFO enigma; and I have a spooky feeling that Vallee still does --- what with his IDH theories that had Hynek's blessing near the end of his life.

a reply to: Erno86

Well thats why you should get to know someone, if possible, before making wild assumptions about them. That's what i did.
Kev

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: Erno86

Well thats why you should get to know someone, if possible, before making wild assumptions about them. That's what i did.
Kev

I'm afraid I have a chip on my shoulder about the late J. Allen Hynek, after he rejected outright in a letter he sent to me, about my two purported E.T. alien photographs that I mailed to him --- That I took in the summer of 1972, on the Western Shore of the Chesapeake Bay at Calvert Cliffs, Maryland --- And after Hynek passed away...the person who took-over Hynek's place at CUFOS, sent me a letter claiming he read my letter I sent to Hynek describing my alien pictures, and would I please mail him my two space alien photos too him. I just threw up my hands and balked at such a request, since I already sent Hynek my two space alien photos.

Whatever real opinions [if any] Hynek [RIP] had about my E.T. photos...he took it to his grave.

originally posted by: Willtell
I believe these “aliens” are actually part of the—here’s a big word for you-- firmamental architecture of reality doing some physical labor intensive work for the universe, or God if you may, having to do with our destiny

Their like the walls or the wind and the walls and wind do not talk

But were getting a glimpse or big hint

Something really really big is happening soon

Very nice theory you have there, first time i read it. Thank you for yet another mind expansion on the theory. It has been a while

And it's very plausible imo. I'm all ready convinced that the alien overwatch is not for 'just studying' the human kind or the mental aspect. They managed to influince the human kind in almost every old civilisation text we find. I believe we are some kind of DNA altered species they created and there acting like 'god'. Like a huge zoo. It might be a bigger project with other species involved, that might explain the different shapes and forms we tend to see.

But i'm in for some re thinking thank to you

a reply to: Erno86

People generally don't care very much about other peoples supposed sightings or experiences.

They care about their own and that's it.

That chip must be awfully heavy on your shoulder after all these years..

Kev

originally posted by: Willtell
I believe these “aliens” are actually part of the—here’s a big word for you-- firmamental architecture of reality doing some physical labor intensive work for the universe, or God if you may, having to do with our destiny

Their like the walls or the wind and the walls and wind do not talk

But were getting a glimpse or big hint

Something really really big is happening soon

This (re: "aliens" are...doing some physical labor intensive work for the universe...") sounds very much like the 'Machine Elves' many have reported. It's an interesting theory and certainly can't be discounted...

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: mirageman

Sure. It's theoretically possible there was one nuts and bolts craft visiting Earth over the past 14 billion years or so.

Just curious, so would this one be ET visiting?

But the millions of weird shapeshifting forms which are attracted to human consciousness is millions of times more prevalent. It drowns out the ETH completely, except as a minor arnchair exercise.

Kev

And how do you know these "millions" of forms are attracted solely to only human consciousness? For all we know, these forms can perhaps be produced by ET itself through the use of advanced technology. It can be said that an advanced race can also play "tricks", notably of the psychotronic variety, especially when manipulating a lesser evolved intelligence with perceptual limitations. Why is that option never discussed or talked about? Certainly seems plausible.

While I'm at it, just want to chip in and say that that IDH is a load of BS as well.
Why does it have to be strictly inter-dimensional? Anyone ever thought that an intelligence can be extraterrestrialWITH inter-dimensional capabilities? Hell, we have a hard enough time trying to get the presence of a multidimensional reality even accepted by mainstream science and now the IDH is supposed to hold more veracity than the ETH?

Oh yeah and and about Vallee and that @#$%load of an argument(s) opposed to the ETH, click this link for further details on how easy it was to deconstruct. This guy literally blew holes all through it.

I leave a quote from the website in which I share the same exact sentiments in regards to Vallee:

the 5 reasons are of such a naïve nature that I started to wonder if the reason of this piece of Vallée writing was not to provoke a reaction and indicate in a hidden manner that the reasons to dismiss the extra-terrestrial explanation are actually reasons to reinforce it.

a reply to: TrueMessiah

Everyone has an opinion, whether or not it has the slightest merit generally doesn't matter to the person with the opinion.

People seem to gravitate to cliques (meme-plexes) which just happen to reinforce the random events which caused their random personality to form.

Then somehow the random personality in question feels "attacked" by viewpoints different than their own, even though its all a mass of randomness, none of which is better or worse.

Now of course some peoples randomness happens to get them involved with something approaching logic and the scientific method.

But generally it's scarcely worthwhile to converse with anyone...for any of us.

Why we do it, seems to be an exercise in futility.

Much raging and confusion.

Miniscule amounts of substance.

And this includes me as well, more often than I like to admit.

Have a good one.

Kev

a reply to: TrueMessiah

They probably wouldn't be visiting, not in biological person anyway. An automated probe is possible but extremely unlikely for all manner of reasons.

Kev

Before THIS happened I was generally skeptical. But since then I'm more willing to have an open mind.

Personally, I really don't want conclusive proof, I don't need it. I'd rather have the whys answered.

Also: www.abovetopsecret.com...