Utopian future will not work

a reply to: TerryDon79

We have had the need for that hierarchy through because they generally brought about stability and the ability to prosper, allowing technology and culture to progress, but only at the cost of the countless wars and conflicts endured throughout recorded history that eventually brought about the information age in which we live.

Now that we have the capability to instantaneously communicate with one another, no matter the distance, and over a multitude of different formats, we should be able to solve our petty differences and disputes with out the need of TPTB who lets face it simply play one side off the other always to there further advantage and agenda.

a reply to: CynConcepts

Sometimes. That's true and I don't disagree with that, but I'm on about motivation for doing more than something small.

Motivation to sit in an office for 8 hours a day if there's no currency or rewards. Or sweeping the streets. Or maintaining robots. Or serving food or drink. That type of thing.

a reply to: TerryDon79

I highly doubt that if everyone could do whatever they wanted that they would choose to live in carbon-copy houses, it's more likely that every house would be unique product of the owner/designer's individual style, wants, needs.

I think the motivation will always be there, just not based subconsciously on fear. I don't think a police man/woman doing the job purely for money/power, is the kind of person who should be in the job. Not everybody hates doing their job and believe it or not, some menial work is actually good for the soul. For instance, I quite enjoy cleaning my house, but only because it affects my reality in a positive way.

Utopia will work one we have AI to do all the manual jobs. No need for humans to have motivation care humans week enjoy one lifetime long vacation with everything from food to clothes, housing, electronics, etc, etc, being provided by ai work force.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: CynConcepts

Sometimes. That's true and I don't disagree with that, but I'm on about motivation for doing more than something small.

Motivation to sit in an office for 8 hours a day if there's no currency or rewards. Or sweeping the streets. Or maintaining robots. Or serving food or drink. That type of thing.

I have known many retirees who volunteer. Their motivation is not money, but to get out of the house and feel useful. One lady sits behind the admissions desk at our local hospital all day, all week. She does not get paid. She loves how it makes her feel useful and she is able to meet and talk with many different people!

Edit add: I have assisted in serving drinks/bar tendering / food, when I seen the hostess was being overwhelmed with details. I was simply one of the guests so no reward, except helping them out. Many times, stay and assist in cleaning up the messes too. True, I am usually thanked, but I find it enjoyable to help out. More than not, you get to meet more people and have more conversations that way.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
Utopia will never work and the answer to "Why?" is quite simple.

Motivation.

Motivation is what rules most people today. It's what rules most companies and governments too. Motivation is used to gain money and/or rewards.

Think about it this way.

If there's no currency/reward, who would do the "lower" jobs such as cleaning? Robots? Who will build the design, build and maintain said robots with no currency/reward? With no currency/reward, there is no motivation.

Look at it from a sci-if angle. Star Trek.

Everyone gets everything. Free food, accommodation, TV (or equivalent), health care and so on. People need for none of the basics or luxuries. Where's the motivation to do anything? There isn't any.

Think of it as being a child.

Your mum/dad wants you to do weekly chores (dishes, cleaning bedroom, taking trash out, etc.). If a kid gets asked to do them, normally they would refuse. Add a reward/currency and the child would be more motivated to do said chores.

Now, I know there are selfless people out there, so this isn't a "one size fits all" opinion piece. But realistically, the majority of us humans do things for rewards/currency. Take that away and you take motivation away.

And that's why I believe we will never have a utopian future.

Mexians

a reply to: TerryDon79

If you remove the currency, you also remove the industries that require it to function.

No more banks, mortgage companies, insurance companies, financial advisers, salesmen, cashiers, etc. That encompasses about 75 million people in this country who aren't actually producing anything.



Imagine damn near every one of those skyscrapers being empty because all they're doing is moving money around. Nothing comes out of there.

Add those 75 million people to the remaining industries and all of a sudden, everyone's workload has just been cut in half.



Now here's where the motivation comes from...

We set a work requirement of 5,000 days for every able-bodied adult in the country, regardless of the industry. Fulfill your obligation and you're retired. Time could also be taken off of your work requirement for working harder and innovating, which in return will continually reduce the national workload along with the requirement itself.

We'd essentially be creating an economy that thrives on job elimination rather than job creation, which in the face of inevitable automation only makes sense.

a reply to: TerryDon79

Utopias always work for the elite. As long as they are getting what they want, they don't consider the dystopia it enforces upon every else. They don't have to, they are far removed from the daily struggle of the masses. So many films address the issue directly. Brazil, Roller Ball, Metropolis, I, Robot, and the Fifth Element.

Somebody always has to take out the garbage. And contribute to their place in the great chain of life. Even if most menial chores are done by robots.Now you just expand on that 'destruction is good' theory and look around in the world today at the endless wars accomplished by robotic drones and smart bombs, the conquest for more power territory and resources, the rebuilding, the money to be made , "from the great chain of life"...

Hence the term, "Orwellian Nightmare".

My husband lacks motivation for cleaning. Trust me, his home office can become a hazard zone. I have stopped cleaning that room. It gets extremely disgusting and I have to just keep reminding myself not to enter. Eventually, he does find motivation to clean it himself. Why? His own reward is that he recognizes that it needs to be done. He always says that he wished he cleaned it sooner. He is always so proud of himself afterwards.

I know this seems silly...but seriously, all humans will step up and do the dirty jobs, if it will begin to have an adverse effect on them personally. They will be motivated by their want to enjoy this life and world...not for money/rewards.

originally posted by: eNumbra
Not every planet was part of the Federation, and you're asking for specifics that weren't ever written.

Wasn't there a bar on Dork Space 9? Was everyone working there for free?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: eNumbra
Not every planet was part of the Federation, and you're asking for specifics that weren't ever written.

Wasn't there a bar on Dork Space 9? Was everyone working there for free?

The Ferrengis were the owners of that bar. They never worked for free!

originally posted by: CynConcepts
The Ferrengis were the owners of that bar. They never worked for free!

Yup. So how did the Trekies pay for their hooch?

a reply to: Bone75

Working without rewards/currently for a set amount of hours before you're allowed to retire? That would be forced labour.

Utopia isn't sounding so good.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Bone75

Working without rewards/currently for a set amount of hours before you're allowed to retire? That would be forced labour.

What do you work for now? You realize I'm talking about making those things free right?

originally posted by: Bone75
What do you work for now? You realize I'm talking about making those things free right?

How is it free if you want 5,000 hours of a finite commodity?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Bone75
What do you work for now? You realize I'm talking about making those things free right?

How is it free if you want 5,000 hours of a finite commodity?

How is it slavery if you're getting everything in return?

And it's actually 5,000 days, which amounts to 3 days a week until the age of 50.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: CynConcepts
The Ferrengis were the owners of that bar. They never worked for free!

Yup. So how did the Trekies pay for their hooch?

Good question! Found this Trekkie source tackling that question. Many good answers in there based on excerpts from shows and movies. It seems that federation credit was provided towards alien cultures. Obviously, done through trade agreements.

originally posted by: Bone75
How is it slavery if you're getting everything in return?

How is it utopia if I am forced to do something?

All you did is take modern day society, where we work for goals, put out an arbitrary bogey, 5,000 hours, and called it Utopia.

originally posted by: CynConcepts
Good question! Found this Trekkie source tackling that question. Many good answers in there based on excerpts from shows and movies. It seems that federation credit was provided towards alien cultures. Obviously, done through trade agreements.

So the make believe world of Star Trek had money after all. Dirty capitalist swine.

At least Han made no bones about, he was it in for the money.

Many people invent/build/fix things for reasons other than money. And more would if they knew they don't need money. Actually, we refuse to do many things exactly because of money.

And the danger of not having (enough) robots to do our job sounds like a good motivation to do something about it. It's also possible that, once built, they won't need much maintenance (They could fix each other to a huge degree. We're talking about a trully utopian future, after all).

Another factor to consider: Greed. Just because one doesn't need to work, doesn't mean he won't. Billionaires don't need to work either, yet they do it, because they always want more and more. They don't just give up their business (On the other hand i'm not sure with this mindset an utopia is possible).