4,900,000,000$ To Tesla, Space X, Solar City- Time to Stop Spending Taxpayer $$ on Musk's Cronyism

originally posted by: schuyler
My cousin just bought a Tesla. He has solar panels on the roof in the cloudy PNW. He generates twice as much electricity as he uses, including recharging his car. If everyone did that, we could kiss the Middle East goodbye.

He is quite fortunate to have the money for that. He must make multiple times what the average person does.

Tesla's start at over $65,000 and go to about $110,000 but with short supply I suspect they actually sell for more than that. Solar panels are extremely pricey and you don't recover your investment in savings for over twenty years, more years than they will likely last.

Wealthy people can do whatever they want, but taxpayer money comes mostly from middle income earners who could no way afford that, support a family and puts kids through college. Since they are the source of the tax revenue, giving them tax breaks is just a paper Houdini trick. Take it from the right hand and put it back in the left hand.

Taxing the wealthy more does no good, as if they paid 100% it would not put a dent in the costs of going green too fast.

I'm all for going green, but those who get excited and think it could be done right now are on some kind of drug. People can't afford it and the level the middle class would need to be taxed for the government to subsidize it, would destroy them and then how do they buy a Tesla and Solar Panels?

We are so full of it -

crooksandliars.com...

Tell me when someone- anyone - even the water boy goes to jail for this.

How much did they just "LOSE" last time - wasn't it like 4 trillion?
Our government is literally telling us the american public "Whoops we have lost
trillions of your money, but none of us can be held accountable - just mistakes"

At least Elon is doing something I can see happening.
He wants it to succeed.
We no longer have a NASA and I believe in space exploration.
So as a taxpayer i'm okay with this..

Now where are my other trillions going that no one seems to be brought to justice for?

a reply to: seasonal

He does use his own money and solar city just got done developing solar shingles.which I'm sure involved a huge investment into R&D. Just give them some time and they will..cough...cough shine

originally posted by: seasonal
How has either of the 3 companies in question helped the average American? Have they made travel across our vast country easier like RR's?

Alright here are a few off the top of my head

1. Space X - Rocket launch cost - They have dropped military rocket launch costs from around 250 million per launch by Boeing down to around 100 million per launch. This will drop to as little as 15 million if full re-usability of rockets are achieved - since they are now being recovered now, the hard part of this has already been accomplished. This is huge taxpayer savings for years to come. Also, lower satellite launch costs means any service using satellites - which are many - are ultimately cheaper to the consumer.

2. Space X - Satellite Internet -They are now working on satellites, and their first major project is to launch mini satellites world wide for full internet coverage. This will give consumers full worldwide coverage, and quite possibly a cheaper isp option.

3. Space X - Mars - They are by far the most aggressive on working toward a manned mission to Mars. Technology developed in this endeavor will benefit humanity immensly. If they are successful, it will open up practical mining of asteroids, and make humanity a multi planet species, which increases our chances of survival as a species greatly.

4. Tesla - Battery Tech -They are the first company that have managed to build a large practical lithium ion battery pack. They are working extremely hard on lowering costs for battery tech. It is hard to overstate how important improvements in battery tech is. Better battery technology makes solar, wind, and other types of power generation far more practical because energy can be stored cheaply it no longer becomes nearly as important that the energy generation is intermittent.
Solar panel costs per watt of generation are already on par with the cost of nuclear or natural gas. The only issue is the cost of energy storage. This will make us truely energy independent, and will be better for the environment.

5. Tesla - Improvement in Car Tech. Largely due to Tesla we are less than 10 years away from fully automated electric transportation. What this means is less than 10 percent of the current number of vehicles on the road will be needed. People will simply use an uber like service to call an automated car in a couple of minutes and be transported wherever they are needed. You will no longer need to own a car / pay for insurance or car maintenance. This will drastically cut down on traffic, improving travel time and costs of road maintenance as well. You could say the downside is loss of jobs - but its going to happen, and eventually this will benefit humanity.

6. Solar City - Solar panel proliferation - This is the company that is responsible for the majority of residential solar installations in the US. Through their financing model they have made it practical - and in fact if the projected lifespans of the systems are true, profitable to own their own home solar generation. I think this is a good idea. Our grid makes us vulnerable, Millions and millions of people will die if our electric grid goes down for any length of time. Changing our generation model to be at the source of use just makes sense when you realize half the power generated by utilities is lost during the transmission process.

a reply to: seasonal

Unfortunately nuclear weapons cannot be made from thorium. So it won't be fully funded by the government anytime soon.

a reply to: seasonal

Unfortunately nuclear weapons cannot be made from thorium. So it won't be fully funded by the government anytime soon.

a reply to: conscientiousobserver

I guess we will see if this car company get off the ground, 500,000,000 is an awful lot of money. I would hope that the car company can stand on its own 2 feet soon. And I think it would be great if we didn't burn fuel into the air we breath (kinda like peeing in your drinking water).

I think this much $ going to these companies for so long is a mistake. And there are lots of people with vision, just not the pay pal resume, and not the connections to get the free $$.

But hey if you are cool with it, I'm cool that you are.

$hitty cause you can't afford one? Or $hitty cause you read a few bad reviews about things that have since been fixed. They are the most technologically advanced vehicles on the market. So people have every reason in the world to get glassy eyed over. Not to mention the model 3 will be released next year at the very affordable starting price of $30000 and I honestly can't wait to get one.

a reply to: Ohanka

Any proof to back up such a ridiculous claim

a reply to: conscientiousobserver

This was back in 2015: Panasonic Quickly Beats SolarCity’s Solar Module Efficiency Record.

Here is what just happened with cheap perovskite layered between white graphene (boron nitride) sitting on graphene aerogel: UC Berkley, Nov 2016 - Major advance in solar cells made from cheap, easy-to-use perovskite.

Solarcity claims 22% then Panasonic beat that with a 25% cell. The Berkley news is a nominal conversion of 21.7% without even tuning the material. The peak is 26% efficiency. Solarcity is already locked into one method while innovation happens all around them. That is one of the problems of being first at anything--great idea but material science gets better and soon you are left in the dirt.

Unless you get government bailouts in the forms of grants and subsidies. Which is what OP is pointing out. Musk was lending money to Solarcity being made from Tesla until recently to keep it afloat and almost tanked both Tesla and SC. He was forced to separate his ahem, lending habits. And to add even more fuel to the fire, Fisker is back from the dead with a graphene supercapacitor that out performs anything Tesla has as far as weight (lighter), capacity, charge time (15 minutes), size, and range (400 miles).

a reply to: Blaine91555
Very true, the electric car is still a curiosity. And the fact that it is by far more expensive that most any other car the general public uses/owns makes for a silly comparison.
Now if these cars can become comparable to regular ones in price and reliability/performance well I'll be the first to say hooray.

He is quite fortunate to have the money for that. He must make multiple times what the average person does.

Tesla's start at over $65,000 and go to about $110,000 but with short supply I suspect they actually sell for more than that. Solar panels are extremely pricey and you don't recover your investment in savings for over twenty years, more years than they will likely last.

Wealthy people can do whatever they want, but taxpayer money comes mostly from middle income earners who could no way afford that, support a family and puts kids through college. Since they are the source of the tax revenue, giving them tax breaks is just a paper Houdini trick. Take it from the right hand and put it back in the left hand.

Taxing the wealthy more does no good, as if they paid 100% it would not put a dent in the costs of going green too fast.

I'm all for going green, but those who get excited and think it could be done right now are on some kind of drug. People can't afford it and the level the middle class would need to be taxed for the government to subsidize it, would destroy them and then how do they buy a Tesla and Solar Panels?
edit on 11/16/2016 by Blaine91555 because: (no reason given)

a reply to: conscientiousobserver
I hear you, how much per SQ.

It is nice to have these new products, but are they cost effective?

Can the family who makes 43,000$ a year afford these new solar shingles?

Or is this a thing that will get cheaper later, and how much is the support equipment?

He does use his own money and solar city just got done developing solar shingles.which I'm sure involved a huge investment into R&D. Just give them some time and they will..cough...cough shine

a reply to: conscientiousobserver

Correct.

Unfortunately nuclear weapons cannot be made from thorium. So it won't be fully funded by the government anytime soon.

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
a reply to: conscientiousobserver

This was back in 2015: Panasonic Quickly Beats SolarCity’s Solar Module Efficiency Record.

Here is what just happened with cheap perovskite layered between white graphene (boron nitride) sitting on graphene aerogel: UC Berkley, Nov 2016 - Major advance in solar cells made from cheap, easy-to-use perovskite.

Solarcity claims 22% then Panasonic beat that with a 25% cell. The Berkley news is a nominal conversion of 21.7% without even tuning the material. The peak is 26% efficiency. Solarcity is already locked into one method while innovation happens all around them. That is one of the problems of being first at anything--great idea but material science gets better and soon you are left in the dirt.

Unless you get government bailouts in the forms of grants and subsidies. Which is what OP is pointing out. Musk was lending money to Solarcity being made from Tesla until recently to keep it afloat and almost tanked both Tesla and SC. He was forced to separate his ahem, lending habits. And to add even more fuel to the fire, Fisker is back from the dead with a graphene supercapacitor that out performs anything Tesla has as far as weight (lighter), capacity, charge time (15 minutes), size, and range (400 miles).

Ok, you lose any credibility with me when you are talking about graphene in anything other than a lab setting.
It simply has not been able to be mass produced in a cost efficient matter at all. I would love for it to become a real industrial material - but it just isn't yet. I have been following nanotech for over a decade, and every year we are supposed to see a massive change - but in reality beyond a few nano-materials for stain resistance, improved friction reduction or the like it's impact has been absolutely minuscule.

I have no doubt graphene can and eventually will change the world - but there is no indication that will happen anytime soon.

Fisker is a joke, if you are putting any faith in them considering that piece of garbage product that was their first car you are being supremely optimistic to put it lightly.

a reply to: rickymouse

It can't be used to create weapons so the tech was buried long ago.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: conscientiousobserver
I hear you, how much per SQ.

It is nice to have these new products, but are they cost effective?

Can the family who makes 43,000$ a year afford these new solar shingles?

Or is this a thing that will get cheaper later, and how much is the support equipment?

He does use his own money and solar city just got done developing solar shingles.which I'm sure involved a huge investment into R&D. Just give them some time and they will..cough...cough shine

Yes many can. Solar City panels can already be financed at the same rate as someones utility bills in states with a lot of sun. For people living in one of these places who want the reliance of being off grid, it is actually a no brainer if the equipment lasts the stated lifespans.

a reply to: seasonal

Solarcity is going bust because big energy keeps pushing them out. Was a BIG push of people in Las Vegas getting solar until legislation made it worse to go solar than buy from NV Energy.
link

a reply to: seasonal

I think its normal for people to get excited about new things and fall into the me, me, me, now, now, now mentality.

I learned many years ago those demanding this now, are generally illiterate as to the costs involved and reality.

I'm OK with a little helping hand from the taxpayers for those doing R&D, but it needs to be thought out and happen when it's reasonable and this dumping money on people to do what it is not possible at this time, is just flushing money down the drain.

The idea that there is some secret technology out there being withheld holds no water. The first energy company with an affordable answer will be quick to get it on the market and available IMO. It would be like finding the key to the kingdom.

a reply to: seasonal

The oil and gas industry gets 43 billion annually.

That is nearly what your 10 year total is per Month.

Just some perspective over where the market is being manipulated.

Funny, there's a solar city ad on ATS while I'm reading this thread. Guess our tax dollars are supporting ATS.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: schuyler
How has either of the 3 companies in question helped the average American? Have they made travel across our vast country easier like RR's?

How many solar panels? Does he have any electrical appliances? something doesn't sound right...

That's a terribly simplistic way of looking at it. R&D cannot be immediately quantified, especially to your satisfaction. He doesn't have to make refrigerators. The idea is to bring solar power to the masses, and he is well on his way to doing that. The Tesla is already here, saving gasoline as we speak. Other manufacturers are following suit, making the marketplace competitive. The Model 3 will be very affordable. There is no reason at all why most people could not drive an electric powered vehicle right now. Musk's solar cell efforts have already resulted in a reduction in cost for solar panels. The goal is solar roofs for everyone, and as that begins to happen, our reliance on oil will begin to lessen, with all sorts of benefits to individual and country alike. His 'solar appliance" stores electricity for night use. Right now, today, it's too expensive for the average American, just like cars were originally, but that will change.

In terms of subsidies, it's a bargain. The US spends 3/4 of a trillion dollars a year on a military. The US Navy's major function is to keep the seaways safe for travel for oil tankers. The USS Gerald R Ford cost is exceeding $12 billion, and we have 11 carriers. It costs $6.5 million a DAY to operate a single Carrier Battle Group. Do the math here. It is quite cost effective to subsidize solar at this point in its life cycle, whether it helps you immediately or not. I completely support this sort of subsidy and believe that those against it are short-sighted, if not myopic because they do not understand the economics of it. Your "outrage" over this is misplaced.