4,900,000,000$ To Tesla, Space X, Solar City- Time to Stop Spending Taxpayer $$ on Musk's Cronyism

originally posted by: seasonal
Very true, the electric car is still a curiosity. And the fact that it is by far more expensive that most any other car the general public uses/owns makes for a silly comparison.
Now if these cars can become comparable to regular ones in price and reliability/performance well I'll be the first to say hooray.

Actually in the case of the Tesla model S I disagree completely, it is not a curiosity. As many Auto magazines have compared it with other many other cars as costly it has still come out on top.

If you are really looking for the safest, most reliable, best overall car for the dollar and can afford a Model S it is a good decision. Now that market is not huge - but if Tesla was content with simply being a brand like Porsche or BMW or Mercedes they would be profitable.

Their desire to create an electric car for the masses in the model 3 is the only reason they currently aren't making money, it is taking an enormous investment to build the manufacturing that will allow the model 3 to be built cheaply enough to make it practical.

The only potential issue with the model 3 is the expense of mining the lithium. If they succeed in obtaining it at the price they believe they can it will work.

a reply to: proximo

First, I do not want your credibility so why even bring it up?

Second, graphene production is coming along in leaps and bounds over the last year. Look, they can make 3- or 4-inch sheet of the stuff in a minute instead of the hours CVD takes. But I guess it all just lab work.

Graphene Mega thread: Diamond proves useful material for growing graphene.

You can buy bike tires, you can buy aerogel lined jackets and gloves, you can buy it in powder form. Not in the future but today. Coming soon, a race car, fishing rods, even work out clothes. But hey, I have no credibility so why does it matter!

BTW - I said Fisker is "back from the dead with a graphene supercapacitor" and did not mention the first car at all. So a tenuous point at best... maybe a half point then? Then again half of nothing is nothing.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

You need to update your information. Solar city just revealed solar roof tiles. The 1st Gen tiles have 98%of the efficiency of standard solar cells. Musk plans to have them be even more efficient by the time they release next summer.

All those technologies are wonderful and all but they are still in their infancy and are not something that can be scaled up and put on the market any time soon.

Musk knows what he is doing

a reply to: seasonal

Musk has the model 3 coming out next year. Which starts at $30000 and already has hundreds of thousands of pre-orders. So hooray lol

originally posted by: Blaine91555

originally posted by: schuyler
My cousin just bought a Tesla. He has solar panels on the roof in the cloudy PNW. He generates twice as much electricity as he uses, including recharging his car. If everyone did that, we could kiss the Middle East goodbye.

He is quite fortunate to have the money for that. He must make multiple times what the average person does.

Tesla's start at over $65,000 and go to about $110,000 but with short supply I suspect they actually sell for more than that. Solar panels are extremely pricey and you don't recover your investment in savings for over twenty years, more years than they will likely last.

Wealthy people can do whatever they want, but taxpayer money comes mostly from middle income earners who could no way afford that, support a family and puts kids through college. Since they are the source of the tax revenue, giving them tax breaks is just a paper Houdini trick. Take it from the right hand and put it back in the left hand.

Taxing the wealthy more does no good, as if they paid 100% it would not put a dent in the costs of going green too fast.

I'm all for going green, but those who get excited and think it could be done right now are on some kind of drug. People can't afford it and the level the middle class would need to be taxed for the government to subsidize it, would destroy them and then how do they buy a Tesla and Solar Panels?

Actually you are ignoring a few things in this examination.
1. The resale value of Teslas is much higher than the average car, so it is a better long term investment.
2. Due to that resale value, you can actually lease one for less than 600 a month - which while expensive is actually doable for a lot of people.
3. Solar panels really aren't that expensive anymore. They have dropped in cost 10% a year for the last 20 years, and are projected to continue to drop in price 10% a year through 2027. Where I live in Arizona it literally is cheaper to buy and finance a solar system and finance it than it is to pay the electric bill. This only gets better each year with that kind of price drop.

It is more expensive today - by maybe 20% - to own a tesla and get solar panels. However once the model 3 comes out, and solar panels keep dropping in five years it will be just as cheap, if not cheaper to go all electric.

To claim this is all environmentalist nonsense is just outdated thinking.

a reply to: FauxMulder

It came up because you most likely searched for solar city beforehand

a reply to: conscientiousobserver

I've never searched for it.

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
a reply to: proximo

First, I do not want your credibility so why even bring it up?

Second, graphene production is coming along in leaps and bounds over the last year. Look, they can make 3- or 4-inch sheet of the stuff in a minute instead of the hours CVD takes. But I guess it all just lab work.

Graphene Mega thread: Diamond proves useful material for growing graphene.

You can buy bike tires, you can buy aerogel lined jackets and gloves, you can buy it in powder form. Not in the future but today. Coming soon, a race car, fishing rods, even work out clothes. But hey, I have no credibility so why does it matter!

BTW - I said Fisker is "back from the dead with a graphene supercapacitor" and did not mention the first car at all. So a tenuous point at best... maybe a half point then? Then again half of nothing is nothing.

I did not word that properly - I did not mean to attack your credibility - I was attacking the credibility of any company claiming Graphene based products are here or almost here.

Do you know how many press releases there have been about a miraculous improvement in graphene production over the last 5 years? How much improvement has really been made. Don't get me wrong I want them to succeed badly - I just won't believe it till I see it.

I have been burned on one to many investments on supposed great tech that was right around the corner, that never actually materialized to ever believe these claims till I see a product that is mass produced.

a reply to: seasonal

They are 98% as efficient as standard panels and musk believes he can increase those numbers substantially by next summer when they plan to start installing them.

From what I have read it won't cost much more than getting a new standard roof and that doesn't even count the energy savings and will be just as easy to install if not easier. It's also a better insulator and 3x more durable than asphalt singles

When they unveiled the tiles they also released the power wall 2 which can continuously put out 5 kw of energy and can store 14 kw. All for the reasonable price of $5500.
They will also have payment plans. So it will be very affordable for anyone with an average income.

a reply to: proximo

No problems! I do not really have a digital ego except when I do something dumb like forget how to make proper BBcodes and throw up a complaint thread only to later realize it was all my fault to being with! *facepalm* My digital ego took a hit that day.

Oddly enough, I will not bother posting on "light bulb" or "battery" stories on the graphene Mega thread because of that same reason - being burned! A little digging and it is the same announcement made a few years ago from another source.

Next year, I think will be a year to watch as production techniques are ramped up. There is growth (a lot of it is being set up as vertical production. So, graphite source, graphene production, sales, and marketing all by one company) being done right now (most announcements are just press releases about companies restructuring). So it looks like everybody is getting ready for next year at least from my vantage point. One of the first will be a shipping company using graphene plastics and another will have graphene paints as both have been cleared for mass production.

Until I can hold a graphene battery in my grubby little hands I am not going to believe anything! So, if it is Tesla, Fisker, that Australian company, ZapnGo,... whoever it is, not until I can order a product and receive it will I believe.



Here is a write up about concerns over Solarcity on IEEESpectrum - The Challenges for Tesla's Solar Roofs.

The "adhering to building codes" makes the idea that all houses will have them installed seem a bit misguided. Then fire, heat, cost,... well, you get the idea.

a reply to: proximo

I don't believe I said it is environmentalist nonsense? I did however say I'm all for green.

Reality is not determined by what the high income people can or can't afford. The average income is low enough most people could not buy a Tesla. You need to view it not through your lens as a person with the income to afford it, but through the lens of what the average person can afford. Most people struggle just to make mortgage payment and could never swing Tesla payments and Solar Panel payments.

Then you have entire countries like China where half the population exists on a couple of dollars a day. Places where the real environmental disasters are.

But this is about taking tax payer money from people who can't afford the green technology at today's prices and giving it to the wealthy to use for their pie in the sky projects.

a reply to: Blaine91555

Oh you trusting souls. Monday thru Friday there is a check for 2 million $ every day. On Monday a check for 2 million, on Tuesday there is a check for 2 million$ on Wed.........

And for the record, I have worked with R+D labs before, fabricating test equipment. It is expensive, but somehow they pay for it.

The only thing that I am concerned with is oversight and benefit to the tax payer. This is a private business and why are we propping up a company that will take the tax dollars make a product then sell it back to the tax payer. Are these companies going to pay the US tax payer back out of it's profits?

I would love to own a car that was electric. They are not affordable.

I would love to have solar panels in place of asphalt shingles. I don't know the price, but I have an idea of costs.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Blaine91555

I would love to own a car that was electric. They are not affordable.

I would love to have solar panels in place of asphalt shingles. I don't know the price, but I have an idea of costs.

A Chevy Volt or Bolt costs $30,000. A Prius hybrid costs much less. The new Tesla Model 3 will cost about $30K. The cheapest Model S costs about $70K but is considered a luxury car. I don't know what you mean by "affordable," because you wont buy these for $2K on the used car market, but compared to the average cost of a new car, they are quite affordable.

Solar power for a roof is so variable it's dangerous to compare, but my cousin's new solar roof cost about $25K. I paid that to install a new shingle roof on my house a few years ago. He produces twice as much electricity as he uses and makes money by selling the power back to the power company. He hasn't been up for a year yet so we don't have exact figures for comparison, but it sure looks like he's going to come out ahead. I'll report figures when I get them, but the fact is he pays no electricity bill, and this is in the Pacific Northwest, not exactly a perfect place for solar.

Given the average price of a house you could roll solar into the mortgage and hardly even see a difference. There is no real reason people cannot take advantage of this right now if they wanted to. It is absolutely possible and you do not need to wait. I support further research and tax subsidies into solar and believe it will provide a very good bang for the buck. I would very much rather pay a million dollars into solar research rather than the same amount for a single shell on the new USS Zumwalt. Getting solar to acceptable levels of cost is exactly what I want our government to do.

a reply to: [post=21538282]schuyler[/post

25k is that the whole set up? Or roof only?

Thanks for the info.

I read this article earlier... it is terrible. Along with the opinions of some of the people in here that have no idea what they are talking about. Proximo is on point, although he missed one thing. Tesla was profitable this last quarter. I am not one to look up to people or have role models as I like to think for myself but Elon Musk would be the closest thing to that for me. It's also the only biography I've probably ever read. You think he is taking advantage of the government? He works literally like 24/7 being CEO of 2 groundbreaking companies and he pushes the people that work for him to the extreme.

What has he done for the American People? Well, how about thousands of well paying jobs for Americans for start. Building the greatest, safest cars ever built? A nationwide supercharging network. Proximo already touched on the order of magnitude cheaper SpaceX is than any competition. Their new PowerWall battery for home storage is cheaper by far than anything like it out right now, and includes the worlds best inverter that is included in the box. The reason SolarCity has been losing money has been because they've been leasing model that will make little money over a longer period of time but that is coming to an end. The goal being that whenever roofs are replaced it will make sense to go solar with the price difference between a regular roof and a solar roof with the energy savings. Oh and your nonsense about Panasonic... Panasonic is working with Tesla and will work in the Gigafactory and is going to be building the cells for the solar tiles. That there proves you have no clue what you are talking about comparing Tesla with Panasonic.

The whole purpose of Tesla is to bring electric cars to the mass public. It will begin next year.

originally posted by: conscientiousobserver
a reply to: SPHARAOH

Or maybe he has a grand vision where you will have a solar roof in place of shingles. A roof that will power your house and vehicle. With power to spare.

With that said they just recently developed solar roof tiles. Which I'm sure the R&D wasn't cheap. So there is your lack of profits . now that they have an attractive solar option that is more cost efficient than the shingles it replaces. You just might see those magic profits start to appear.

I have no problems with peoples grand/revolutionary...Visions. I just think he's trying to do too many things at once. One step forward and two back do not make for progress.

Developed might be an over exaggeration. He maybe tweaked preexisting patents and made them look pretty. As for R&D costs i wouldn't venture a guess.

Right i said magic profits because once he acquires SolarCity then they'll be available. Right now it's just cash down the drain.

Maybe he should post his IQ on Twitter? I'm kidding.

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Blaine91555

I would love to own a car that was electric. They are not affordable.

I would love to have solar panels in place of asphalt shingles. I don't know the price, but I have an idea of costs.

A Chevy Volt or Bolt costs $30,000. A Prius hybrid costs much less. The new Tesla Model 3 will cost about $30K. The cheapest Model S costs about $70K but is considered a luxury car. I don't know what you mean by "affordable," because you wont buy these for $2K on the used car market, but compared to the average cost of a new car, they are quite affordable.

Solar power for a roof is so variable it's dangerous to compare, but my cousin's new solar roof cost about $25K. I paid that to install a new shingle roof on my house a few years ago. He produces twice as much electricity as he uses and makes money by selling the power back to the power company. He hasn't been up for a year yet so we don't have exact figures for comparison, but it sure looks like he's going to come out ahead. I'll report figures when I get them, but the fact is he pays no electricity bill, and this is in the Pacific Northwest, not exactly a perfect place for solar.

Given the average price of a house you could roll solar into the mortgage and hardly even see a difference. There is no real reason people cannot take advantage of this right now if they wanted to. It is absolutely possible and you do not need to wait. I support further research and tax subsidies into solar and believe it will provide a very good bang for the buck. I would very much rather pay a million dollars into solar research rather than the same amount for a single shell on the new USS Zumwalt. Getting solar to acceptable levels of cost is exactly what I want our government to do.

So if you recently purchased a house -5years for 250K and replacing your shingles with the solar panels would increase your mortgage by ~9% depending how much has actually been paid off and length of mortgage +compound interest so that's hardly a difference in your opinion?

Granted it would make more sense on the median price of a new house in America for $290,400 source U.S. census +other facts.
www.globalpropertyguide.com...
If his solar roof cost would be on par with traditional costs.
Would installers need special training?

As to the poster who said the lease costs would only be about less than $600.00 monthly. Have you seen the type of cars that most ordinary people drive. I'd be highly surprised if those leases were over $300.00 Monthly.

a reply to: SPHARAOH

As it stands the oil and gas industry gets about 43 billion annually from the us alone. I wonder what the cost would be in a fair free market?

Elon got 5 billion over 10 years for many projects. Oil and gas gets over 500 billion annually globally.

You explain how you compete with a completely subsiized industry without doing what musk did.

If he were getting 5 billion a year even for his solar panel project of coarse the costs get lower.

Not only that the fed gov uses eminent domain to take private land and sell it to private companies for the oil and gas industry.

The man is trying to lesson costs with innovation and is single handedly making progress. Like the giga factory.

That pesky Elon Musk is at it again

The idea for Hyperloop trains first proposed by Elon Musk in 2013, and are being developed by several firms

Levitating tubes are hoped to travel at top speeds of 1,220 kph (760 mph) across the world

www.dailymail.co.uk... ons-year-build-revolutionary-scale-working-Nevada.html