Okay --- so WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS?

a reply to: TheRedneck

I also opposed his opponent much more because I wanted to at least feel secure if I disagreed openly with my government.

Because -- Hillary was going to silence you? No, she wasn't. You were also never going to lose your guns, or your social security, or your rights to free speech. But now you will.

That was the start of the widening of the political divide. That was when the name-calling became unbearable: when it became somehow acceptable to strip others of their career, their achievements, and their property for not agreeing with their government.

Who did these things?

Who stripped someone of their career, achievements, and property for disagreeing with the government?
Or are you talking about that stupid standoff up in the netherlands of Montana? I'm sorry but I think strip-mining and oil-drilling and deforestation are horrible....I think pollution and fouling of our air is appalling, and I think it will be a DISASTER for so many to lose their insurance and their food assistance just because you all call taxes "theft."


I don't understand what you mean....if it's about the "religious right" like Kim Davis and the refusal to be a decent human being toward others who are different, then that was simply the consequences of them being hateful and ignorant.

Kim got thrown in jail for refusing to acknowledge that gay people can get married. Did you want to marry a man?
Did you get forced to have an abortion? What licenses and property did you lose? Who undid your achievements?

How are you blaming government for that? You think Trump is going to bring those jobs back. But he won't.
You think he will outlaw abortion and overturn gay marriage...but he won't.

Taxes have been around forever. Only the wealthy have been allowed to escape it because THEY ARE WEALTHY and know how to hide their money. So the rest of us have to make up the difference.

I just don't understand what you thought was going to happen.

Trump is silencing journalists RIGHT. NOW. -- shouting them down, insulting them to the point of needing bodyguards (and I'm not a Fox fan -- but Megyn Kelly is a good example of what he tried to do. Alec Baldwin, Jon Stewart, Meryl Streep, CNN, ANYONE WHO SPEAKS OUT AGAINST HIM -----) he is trying to strip them of their careers and achievements -- calling them "fake news", "overrated", "liars", or "pigs" or whatever.

He outsources ALL of his manufacturing work - and hires foreign labor at his properties - and doesn't want to show us his tax returns.....
you know how his pal Putin deals with complainers?

HE KILLS THEM. He has them assassinated. That's why RT is always pro-Putin, because they have to be OR THEY DIE.

Trump is every bit a dictator -- as we shall see, he is a particularly uninformed and thin-skinned one. Hell I myself know more about world events than Tillerson and more about popular culture and demographics than Sessions.

The INTOLERANCE is coming from Trump and friends. If a pizza guy refuses gays and pitches a hateful hissy fit and then loses his business because he's an asshat, oh damn well; it's a bitch to say your piece and then people don't want to buy pizza from you anymore. But if a DIFFERENT pizza guy has DONE NOTHING OF THE SORT and his pizzeria is rumored to be a sex-trafficking pedo cover and he loses his business because of A LIE --- THAT IS NOT OKAY.

Kim goes to jail for not following the law, whether she likes it or not. So should the bankers be going to jail for not following the law -- but no, their careers and achievements and property are left intact.

I really think, with all due respect, that your anger is misguided, and your perceptions are lacking breadth of awareness.....

a reply to: TheRedneck

Like any administration

And, to me, that's the backdrop.... what once was for 150 years is no more, has not been that way for eight years, and, with Trump's election, is getting worse. This will not be "like any administration". I feel like I've been sitting on a front porch the last few decades, observing the traffic on the road, and see a looming fatal collision. You've been on the road, I'm sure, when you saw what you suspected was a drunk driver; a few years ago, I called in to report a truck driver who was weaving all over the road on a two lane road, and I just prayed he didn't cause an accident once we all merged onto a major highway.

That's how I feel now. I've seen the country get drunk and weave all over the place, and I just hope there is no fatal accident ahead.

Outside corporate money and influence has weakened, broken Congress. One party has become a party of reactionaries, with fringe, corporate ideology, and holds all the power now. Democrats only have their voice, no power to stop them. What I am afraid of is the power Ryan has over Trump and what, if any, power Trump has over Ryan. Yes, Congress makes laws, but POTUSs sign bills, and POTUSs use their own power for change.

In another post, you mentioned about one party being labeled "obstructionist". That was a fact. Besides our own thread here in 2009, "Damn The Country, Obama Must Fail", here is what Mike Lofgren wrote about his former party in 2011

A couple of years ago, a Republican committee staff director told me candidly (and proudly) what the method was to all this obstruction and disruption. Should Republicans succeed in obstructing the Senate from doing its job, it would further lower Congress's generic favorability rating among the American people. By sabotaging the reputation of an institution of government, the party that is programmatically against government would come out the relative winner.

"the party that is programmatically against government would come out the relative winner". We now have a faction party in power who worked for and got exactly what they wanted, they are against govt and are now the winners with all the power. They are for "drowning govt in a bath tub", letting business control everything that we have come to see as being a function of govt.

Trump is now head of "the party that is programmatically against government [and is the] winner". We can only hope the Dems voice when he does something not good for the people, and we must, as citizens, use our right to petition our govt and protest when our govt goes against our interest.

We cannot rely on corporations to shower us with gifts to buy our silence/endear them to us to overlook any harm they do to us, we cannot rely on corporations to work on our behalf "to promote the general Welfare".

And so.....was just doing my homework all morning, and aside from the DeVos (FOR SEC OF EDUCATION) hearings (which I think will be awesome, because she has lots of splaynin to do!) and how the Dems are planning on challenging her,

and from Tom Price (FOR WHATEVER FINANCIAL THING) having some shady health-industry stock trading in a very specific item and especially narrow "niche" of hinges for artificial joints or whatever ---- and the Senate Minority leader just spoke to CNN about it....

then I hear that Trump has stunned the entire Western world with his declaration that NATO is obsolete, and that nobody is paying up, and that he trusts Merckell as much as he trusts Putin. He also said that for her to allow 100000000s immigrants in was "catastrophic", and that the UK won't be alone in leaving the alliance.


****mind00 x,; j bbl****shokll.jkklkkkkkkk veswaves*****

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Because -- Hillary was going to silence you?

No. Her supporters were... Obama's supporters did.

Those same supporters who protested to overturn the election... the same ones who I saw on the news screaming to ignore the Constitution because they didn't like the outcome. Those same supporters who started fights at Trump rallies. Those same supporters who screamed about how racist Trump was for not disavowing David Duke's endorsement, after he did so publicly on three separate occasions, and who ignored Hillary's admitted connections to William Quigg and Robert Byrd. Those same supporters who now apparently want to disrupt Trump's inauguration (DisruptJ20) out of spite.

Who stripped someone of their career, achievements, and property for disagreeing with the government?

Hulk Hogan (aka Terry Bolea), stripped of his induction into the WWE Hall of Fame
Paula Deen, lost her business
Duane Chapman (aka Dog the Bounty Hunter), lost his show and his career
Donald Sterling, lost his NBA sports team

Those are some high profile victims of the racist witch hunts. Some are probably racist (like Sterling), but others are simply victims of wiretapping... and of course the same technique was used (ineffectively) against Trump in the ET scandal. Regardless, stripping someone of their property, achievements, or career because they hold an unpopular opinion is wrong.

How many non-celebrities have quietly lost everything because of a slip of the tongue? No one really knows.

like Kim Davis

That was a legal crisis, and I am torn on how it can be resolved equitably.

You think he will outlaw abortion and overturn gay marriage

I don't think outlawing abortion is a good idea. I also don't think killing someone because their existence is inconvenient is a good idea.

I don't want gay marriage outlawed. I also don't want the will of millions of voters overturned by nine men in robes. Neither do I want churches forced to observe ceremonies against their beliefs.

Both these issues could be settled with a small bit of common sense and compromise.

But you perfectly demonstrate what I was trying to say earlier: I was attempting to have a serious issue-based discussion. You brought up points I took issue with. Now, because I spoke my mind, politely and exactly, you immediately switch to issues like Davis, gay marriage, abortion... without any forethought that I might not fit in your stereotype.

One person, even a small group of people, doing that is no issue. But when one assembles enough social pressure, the situation becomes one of mob rule. Offend someone who knows how to turn on the mob, and suddenly one can be falsely associated, demonized, and stripped of their name and property. I see it happening. And I want it stopped. It is blatantly racist and hateful in itself, and a direct threat to fairness, equity, and peace.

Every election protester should be arrested, indicted, and tried for treason. If convicted, they should be stripped of their citizenship. The same goes for anyone who attempts to disrupt the inauguration. Extreme? Yes. Extreme crimes call for extreme responses.

Trump is silencing journalists RIGHT. NOW.

How? By refuting claims? By refusing to allow imagination to be substituted for news?

Every President chooses who asks the next question. Obama does. Bush did. Clinton did. Reagan did. Carter did. Journalism is a profession wherein one is judged by their past actions, no different than research or CEOs. CNN once again was caught trying to skew election results through propaganda (the first time was when they announced Gore had won Florida before the polls closed in the panhandle, and while Bush held a respectable lead). They pay the consequences in a loss of respect.

Megan Kelly was (is) biased. Trump simply pointed out that her bias was affecting her reporting. If a journalist cannot report factually without undue bias, they should not report, just as if a public official is unable to perform their role under law, they should resign.

He outsources ALL of his manufacturing work

Of course he does! EVERYONE in the US either is doing so or is struggling to survive!

THAT'S THE PROBLEM, and Trump didn't set the policies that caused it. He's upsetting those who did.

doesn't want to show us his tax returns

He published his net worth statements, which specify what he owns... his business profit/loss statements are public record... what specifically do you think the tax papers are going to show anyone? I probably couldn't even understand them, and I have education in accounting and have never used a tax preparer.

you know how his pal Putin deals with complainers?

The same way the Saudi do... the same way Syria does... probably. I really don't know. I know some Russian acquaintances of mine despise Putin, and others are somewhat ambivalent about him. I have no personal knowledge of either man.

I do not understand, however, how you call them 'pals.' I know someone photoshopped Trump and a shirtless Putin riding a horse... please tell me you do not believe that was an actual photograph. Do you have inside knowledge about the relationship between Trump and Putin? If you do, please share it with the rest of the world.

Hell I myself know more about world events than Tillerson and more about popular culture and demographics than Sessions.

I seriously doubt that, especially when it comes to one specific demographic. You may have spent 30 years watching documentaries and reading books, Buzzy, but you do not understand the Southern culture. Every word you have typed proves that.

The INTOLERANCE is coming from Trump and friends. If a pizza guy refuses gays and pitches a hateful hissy fit and then loses his business because he's an asshat, oh damn well; it's a bitch to say your piece and then people don't want to buy pizza from you anymore. But if a DIFFERENT pizza guy has DONE NOTHING OF THE SORT and his pizzeria is rumored to be a sex-trafficking pedo cover and he loses his business because of A LIE --- THAT IS NOT OKAY.

Neither is OK.

People are free in this country... at least they used to be... and one cannot redefine freedom to only include actions and opinions they agree with. That is "benevolent" slavery, and was outlawed 150+ years ago.

Trump did not shut down that pizza house... some of his supporters did. And I consider those actions every bit as despicable as the Hillary/Obama supporters I mentioned earlier. I do not differentiate based on party affiliation. Right is right and wrong is wrong.

Now, can we talk issues and maybe come to some agreement, like I feel I have with desert and Annee, or are you more comfortable continuing to throw biased unfounded opinions around like confetti?

TheRedneck

a reply to: desert

I like that analogy. Half the country is swerving left, the other half is swerving right, and they are both blaming the few who are trying to keep their lane.

Incidentally, thank you for reporting that driver. He was probably exhausted rather than drunk, but the end result is the same. I obviously respect drivers tremendously, having been one, but I also hold them to a higher standard.

I admit freely there was a group of Republicans who hoped to completely disrupt the Obama administration; I was not among them, not just because I am not a Republican, but because such was bad for the country. Those who support Trump are not necessarily of that particular group.

However, I did not see riots over Obama's election. I did not see members of Congress openly declaring Obama as "illegitimate." I did not see organized plots to threaten electors. I did not see organized plots to destroy property to disrupt Obama's inauguration. As I remember it, that inauguration was hailed as some sort of almost religiously sanctimonious happening.

All I wanted was for him to take his oath, have his little party, and help the country. We were heading into a recession.

Now all I want is for Trump to take his oath, have his little party, and help the country. We're still in that recession, and we're looking at a civil war to boot.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

sir, that is not what I am doing.
Kindly and respectfully stop trying to derail the thread. Earlier today I mentioned that while I respected your wishes to go into deeper investigation, I started the thread with the intention of following "the gap" between Nov 9 and Friday Jan 20. This phase is all done on Friday.

I want to record what is happening....and discuss them as they come up - and I don't think that is too much to ask. A daily brief round-table is how I see this thread. After Friday, we can select from any of the issues listed in the OP itself, and break down and analyze what has happened in those steps.

Please try to recognize that. It is my effort to keep the thread on course based on the premise for which I started it.
Beginning Saturday morning, or even on Friday night --- this is just as big as the SuperBowl, or the Election Night Results. I wanted to record and opine with others about what has happened in the interim.

I want to go back later and hash them all out....like having a slide show or Power Point of your vacation after you get home. That's how real journalism is done.






Think of it as Intelligence Gathering. We only have this one window. Then we'll calm down, crack open a root beer or whatever, and talk about how that batch of between-days went. I'm grabbing and researching and keeping up as fast as I can. After Friday we can put up our feet and chat about it.

"loosen our ties" ----- and I mean 'neckties, shoe laces, cufflinks, etc.. ----- change into our jammie pants.





Or think of it as a tournament. We've been watching this tournament since early 2015. Now we're at the final scene. Watch!!

a reply to: TheRedneck

However, I did not see riots over Obama's election. I did not see members of Congress openly declaring Obama as "illegitimate.

so...
you are unaware that Trump himself has been claiming Obama was illegitimate since he began his 2008 campaign? Are you serious?
oh my....

the "birther" thing. You aren't aware of that? Please do look into it.
The GOP has been openly obstructing Obama since well before he took the oath. McConnell himself said that the GOP's job in Congress was to prevent ANYTHING that Obama wanted from happening. Seriously.
Ted Cruz stood there and read Green Eggs and Ham until they shut down the bloody government altogether.!!!!!!!!

oh my oh my...

surely you know these things!! Right? Please tell me you are aware of these things...

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

It is not my intention to derail anything; all I have done is to respond to statements made.

I do appreciate your clarification of your intentions concerning this thread. It seems I made an error trying to understand your intentions. You see, when I am faced with a problem, my automatic response is to try and discover a solution to that problem. Let me give you an example:

My mother, who has been in bad health for several years, from battling scleroderma for about 30 years, was recently released from physical rehabilitation. She suffers now from pharynxial dystopia (the inability to swallow) and has to be fed through a feeding tube. She is also at extreme risk for pneumonia. Medical science has no solution.

Others in my family have responded with sympathy, grief, or other such emotion. My response was to research. I discovered the cause: excessive collagen which has attached itself to the cellular membranes of the affected muscle cells. I found some research into reversal of this and formulated a theory as to how I can reverse the process. I am now designing an apparatus to test that theory with her full approval.

I am trying to fix the problem. Others accept the problem and try to make it feel better.

Can I fix it? I honestly don't know. All I have is a theory with sporadic research and a lot of purely anecdotal evidence. Maybe, maybe not. But I have to try. That's just how my mind works. Fix. Find a way to fix and fix.

In the end, I may do no more good than others do in this case. That's fine; I will have tried, and done no harm. Others, however, may see my attempts as useless. That's not something I can fix, so I don't concern myself with it. It is what it is.

In a similar vein, you asked a question in the title: Where do we go from here? I attempted to answer that question. I saw where propaganda had scared people (including you) and tried to explain why I was not afraid, in an effort to calm your fear. Fear is never... NEVER... a good thing.

I apparently failed in that attempt. So be it. However, if I may be so bold, it is unreasonable to ask a question on a public discussion forum and not expect attempts to answer it. It is also unreasonable to make statements on a public discussion board without expecting dissenting opinions. To use your analogy, true journalism includes getting all the facts, from differing as well as similar viewpoints, before trying to work out the storyline later. Attempting to get all the facts from a single viewpoint is called "propaganda." In light of this fact, I believe I should continue to provide you with a more complete picture of the events from my viewpoint.

I look forward to seeing your positions after January 20.

TheRedneck

rly? Really I'm being attacked now? We have discussed many things...I am trying to keep track of outside changes and bringing them in. It is not my fault that things are moving so fast across the topics and activities regarding ALL of those topics.....

for heaven sakes.....



ugh nm. it makes me choke up crying.......

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I'm aware of the "birther thing." I initially thought verification of eligibility was a proper request. As time went on, however, and I saw both an apparent refusal to provide complete documentation countered with an inability to effectively pursue the matter, I decided it was a moot argument.

In my personal opinion, Obama should have ended this once and for all early on with release of his full birth certificate. I don't know why he waited so long, and by this point, I really don't care. What's done is done, it is what it is.

I must also point out that Rep. Lewis is a member of Congress. Trump was not an elected official in any capacity. Trump did not speak for the US; Lewis does. I hold Congressmen to a higher standard, because they are professionals. I will hold Trump to that same standard now that he is a professional.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Attempting to get all the facts from a single viewpoint is called "propaganda." In light of this fact, I believe I should continue to provide you with a more complete picture of the events from my viewpoint.

What would be even more effective, TheRedneck, is if you show us the "propaganda" from which you are learning! That's the idea here, right?

DENYING IGNORANCE? We talk to each other and say "this is what I'm seeing from my side..." and then we exchange different perspectives' "propaganda."

I'm trying to HELP THAT PROCESS! Please don't malign me for that! SHOW US where you are getting your intel!

simply attacking me for presenting "propaganda" that disagrees with you without showing me your cards too?

not cool.

I'm intending to make progress in getting all the info and then looking at it after we have completed the observational period. Staying on topic.
The next steps.
I am bruised that you are trying to restory that. Don't spin what I'm saying. I say what I mean, and you are able to understand nuance. I value that you are engaged in the conversation. Whether you stay or not is up to you.

And one other thing, everyone ---- this latest "shuushing" that Trump did to that CNN press-corps member was absolutely deplorable.

CNN is not the same as BREITBART! Holy lord this media bonfire is utterly out of control.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

What would be even more effective, TheRedneck, is if you show us the "propaganda" from which you are learning! That's the idea here, right?

A completely fair request. I do pride myself on forming my own opinions with a minimum of outside influence, but it would be silly of me to say I can always do so perfectly. Would you care to propose which issue you want my source of opinion for?

Buzzy, I have not tried to attack you once. I have disagreed with you many times, but disagreement is not an attack. I have nothing against you personally; I actually find you quite interesting. That does not mean I will tacitly agree with you by remaining silent. I will express my opinion, even if it disagrees with yours.

If anything is off topic in this thread, it is a claim of attack when the 'attack' is simply a disagreement.

TheRedneck

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Yeah, sorry no.

"Ebonics" and African Americans are inexorably linked connotatively. No one walks away from:

...not like a mega-church with a pastor who speaks ebonics

And honestly believes the pastor is anything but African American or that "Ebonics" is meant to be read either neutrally or positively.


And your statement in full:

Have you ever been to a lecture for adults -- not like a mega-church with a pastor who speaks ebonics, but like, you know, a smart person talking about a serious thing? Like a long TED Talk?

Where you go on to contrast a "lecture" for adults" with "a mega-church with a pastor who speaks Ebonics" Clearly suggesting that those in the mega church with a pastor, (Unavoidably a Black Pastor), speaking "Ebonics" aren't at the level of adults. Then you make a second comparison between "a smart person talking about a serious thing" and "a mega church with a pastor who speaks Ebonics" insinuating that neither the people in the mega church or the black pastor are smart or talking about anything serious.

I can't read minds, so I don't know what you were "thinking" when you wrote it or what you were hoping to communicate, but your sentence standing alone, is derogatory, condescending and racist.

a reply to: desert

That's how I feel now. I've seen the country get drunk and weave all over the place, and I just hope there is no fatal accident ahead.

America is off the tracks

Taken all together, this confluence of events represents perhaps the most profound political crisis that this country has faced since Watergate. We have a president-elect fully prepared to violate the Constitution. We have allegations that his advisers might have worked directly with a foreign government to win the presidential election and who could also, potentially, be blackmailed by that same government. We have a Congress indifferent to these potential crises and focused instead on repealing legislation that will literally cause the premature deaths of thousands of Americans. It’s almost hard to take all of this in. It’s a disorienting and surreal moment in our history and the worst part is that last week might have represented the calm before the true storm.

Another opinion piece - just recognizing an uncomfortable and recurring theme

Oh, FFS! Now Trump is taking the weekend off before he begins his "first day"!!

George W. Bush’s first inauguration took place on Saturday, Jan. 20, 2001, and within two hours of his oath-taking he ordered a halt on the publication of all new regulations until they could be reviewed, according to the New York Times.

Ok, more evidence that Trump is someone who really doesn't want to be POTUS. Or, he's worried about his stamina with all the .... wait, there will only be 3 inaugural balls, versus the 10 balls Obama and the First Lady attended...

In a video released a few weeks after the election, Trump outlined several executive actions he planned to take on his first day in office. They included issuing a notification of the Unites States’ intent to withdraw from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, eliminating “job-killing restrictions” on shale energy and clean coal, and formulating “a rule which says that for every one new regulation, two old regulations must be eliminated.”

Well, more next steps to be revealed Monday. .... for fun, here was Obama's first day

a reply to: desert

8:35?

Slacker

a reply to: imwilliam

no, yourewilliam, it was not racist. It is real life. I made a remark comparing a megachurch that has an African American pastor who speaks Ebonics to a TED Talk. Do those exist? They certainly do. Does that mean I think those pastors are stupid? LOL!!! No. nono. They are filthy rich!! Are all megachurch pastors African American? By no means! Some of them are white in skinny jeans and do rock/n/roll style preaching and don't speak ebonics - some of them are old coots like Jerry Falwell - or a hell-fire and brim-stone type - they have their own style, usually whatever the crowd likes. It is ENTERTAINMENT. It is not education.

A pastor of ANY RACE, in ANY RELIGION, getting all frothed up spouting "holy book" verses is NOT, in any way, a serious adult lecture. It is either a pep rally or a doom announcement; a warning or a consolation. It is invariably shaming to its attendees, ever reminding them they aren't really good enough and can't ever be. It is a show. It is a recital of antiquated ideas and a rehashing of the same stuff everybody there already knows. It is not "education." It is "oration."

That is real life.
You might feel insulted by it, but it is not condescending. A person can choose what auditorium to go to, what speakers they wish to hear. A pastor in a mega-church is not doing anything but "shepherding" in an animated and overly melodramatic way.

Megachurches are to Ted Talks as Walmart is to a museum.

[snipped]

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I took it as a racist remark, too, Buzzy. I was shocked when I read it. Only I didn't acknowledge it because I don't know you well enough to call you a "racist." You may have not intended it to come across that way.

Even if you did, you have the right to your opinion. You can look down on black churches. You can think they're "backward." You can pity those poor, ignorant, unevolved folks, like the poor folk Dylan Roof shot and killed in Charlotte. The world will go on just fine if you do. I will even support your right to say what you feel.

I won't agree with it.

TED talks is science (mostly). Science is the search for knowledge. Religion is the search for wisdom. Knowledge and wisdom are not the same, ergo science and religion are searches for different things. I enjoy both. I watch a lot of TED talks, and I enjoy a good, upbeat sermon (just not wild about the 'fire and brimstone' ones). I will also say that the black churches I have had contact with are probably decades ahead of other churches in their search. I wish I felt comfortable enough to sit in on more of them.

But my point in this post is that I have not called you "backward," "racist," "intolerant," or any such label. I would bet good money that, had it been me, as a "Southern conservative," saying those exact same words, there would have been cries of racism far and wide... chances are, I might have had my post removed! It is that double standard that I have been trying to point out. It can never be OK for one to say or do or think a certain way and not OK for another to do so.

I will support your right to have your opinion, Buzzy. I will not support your right to have yours and simultaneously degrade others for their opinions. That right does not exist. The double standards have to stop, and they have to stop now.

If you wanted a 'next step,' I think we found it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: desert

Oh, FFS! Now Trump is taking the weekend off before he begins his "first day"!!

That ought to give him plenty of time to Tweet about how "Tremendous" his inauguration was and how many unattractive women there are marching on DC!