Why Would A Good God Use Faith Rather Than Works to Decide if your Worthy for Paradise?

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Well if we take it to the point where I put God in the position of owing me something then salvation is not a gift .If its not a gift and we have to gain the system then it becomes something that would advantage some while putting others at a disadvantage . Faith is a equalizer .Weather poor or rich or week or strong or smart or dumb . ....I don't think anyone showing up there are going to be carrying any chips to cash in ...

Precisely.

While I won't say that faith is the simplest thing in the world. It's not.

It is one requirement that any is capable of no matter their station or circumstance. Yes, even the very wealthy can have faith or the worst murderer or child rapist can come to truly understand that they need a bunch of very deep forgiveness and honestly repent of what they did.

And it's very easy for us on the outside to look at those people and say they can't possibly be serious because we don't know, but God does and can. He can do what we can't - read the inner seeming, the heart of a person. You can't lie to Him.

That's what this cry for works over faith here really is. We can't read another's heart, so we want to see evidence with our eyes that we can quantify. We forget that God doesn't need that.

Works doesn't require money....


Works is how you lived your life, faith is how you felt about it....

So which one is more about the self???

What you did for other people (works), or how you secretly on the inside fell about Jesus?

What are you talking about works are selfish and faith isn't???

One is irrelevant to anything except a very "convenient" system that obviously is a self fulfilling prophecy.


The other actually helps other people.

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: ketsuko
Because when getting into Heaven is simply based on works alone, it becomes a self-absorbed contest of the Holier Than Thou. Look at how many complain about them and judge them now. Think about how much worse it would be if our only hope of salvation was to participate in a bunch of moralistic do-gooding? Imagine the chest thumping then!

Remember, the admonition is to do what you do without bragging about it but simply to do it.

Such a thing becomes far less possible when doing those things becomes your only ticket into Heaven. God tried it with the old covenant. Follow my law, do my sacrifices, and you shall be redeemed ... Look at what become of the Pharisees who lived solely for the Law itself, forgetting God. Jesus came to set them straight and they killed him for it.

What?!?!?


Let's take faith healers for example...

They have belief in spades, but watched their child slowly die of a treatable illness ONLY because their faith was that strong...


So they go to heaven huh?


What about the westboro baptist types?

Faith in spades, but horrible works???


You sure it is not just way easier to defend the atrocities of the church and aristocracy when you can say,"well faith is all that really matters...."

Jesus did say there would be many at the end of days who call his name (LORD) that he never knew. ("Depart from me! I never knew you!")

In order to have faith in something, I would posit that a basic understanding of its nature is necessary. Crespin Dollar, who preaches the word and amasses mountains of fortune, must never have read Jesus's words regarding the rich. The most simple mind can understand Jesus but many refuse to. Those who have faith in Jesus strive to emulate Him, but fall short of his perfection. No excuse, though, to not follow His commandments (Love your God with all your heart. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.) All else usually rights itself if one strives for those two precepts.

So your personal modern flavor of Christianity is correct and everyone else has it wrong and will be rebucced by God in heaven????


Because first century Christians all the way to about a hundred years ago, were FAR closer to westboro than to your type of Christian.


So how do the modern flavors of Christianity trump the way it was practiced for millinia.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

"It's always... always has been "Faith WITHOUT deeds(works)...ALONE"...will not get you into heaven.

You have to walk the walk by doing good... no matter how small... each and every day.

MS

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: EmmanuelGoldstein

originally posted by: ketsuko
Because when getting into Heaven is simply based on works alone, it becomes a self-absorbed contest of the Holier Than Thou. Look at how many complain about them and judge them now. Think about how much worse it would be if our only hope of salvation was to participate in a bunch of moralistic do-gooding? Imagine the chest thumping then!

Remember, the admonition is to do what you do without bragging about it but simply to do it.

Such a thing becomes far less possible when doing those things becomes your only ticket into Heaven. God tried it with the old covenant. Follow my law, do my sacrifices, and you shall be redeemed ... Look at what become of the Pharisees who lived solely for the Law itself, forgetting God. Jesus came to set them straight and they killed him for it.

So you are saying that according to the holy bible:
A man goes on a 15 year killing spree where he kills 2,000 people and rapes their dead bodies before finally getting caught and arrested.
Then right before he is executed he repents and accepts the lord Jesus as his personal savior.
Then he gets electrocuted.
Then he arrives in heaven with a big holy smile on his face.
Then in heaven he sees some of the people that he murdered and raped and they smile towards him and say "welcome home brother"! ??

Still figuring out this quote thing. Sorry for the obfuscation.

You have never repented, obviously. It is not a pleasant experience to realize the impact of your sins on others. The murderer/rapist will NOT be smiling big smiles upon reaching heaven if he really repented, he will not be able to look God in the eye for shame and grief, but he will be welcomed with open arms by a truly merciful God. God is seeking each and every one of us out every day and calling us to him. We can choose to ignore or listen. No repentence- self centered universe. Repent, center yourself around God. It is what our souls thirst for.

Ok fine he can't look God in the eye, but he gets to enjoy heaven forever right along side his victims....well the victims that were Christians, the ones who are not God sent to the lake of fire, after being raped and murdered of course.

While some Indian medicine man who devoted his life to helping his tribe, but never heard of Jesus burns in hell...

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: JoshuaCox

"It's always... always has been "Faith WITHOUT deeds(works)...ALONE"...will not get you into heaven.

You have to walk the walk by doing good... no matter how small... each and every day.

MS

So it is not just enough to have faith and truthfully repent?

So is that just a lie every Christian on the planet is telling ...maybe for recruitment purposes and to increase donations...

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: EmmanuelGoldstein

originally posted by: ketsuko
Because when getting into Heaven is simply based on works alone, it becomes a self-absorbed contest of the Holier Than Thou. Look at how many complain about them and judge them now. Think about how much worse it would be if our only hope of salvation was to participate in a bunch of moralistic do-gooding? Imagine the chest thumping then!

Remember, the admonition is to do what you do without bragging about it but simply to do it.

Such a thing becomes far less possible when doing those things becomes your only ticket into Heaven. God tried it with the old covenant. Follow my law, do my sacrifices, and you shall be redeemed ... Look at what become of the Pharisees who lived solely for the Law itself, forgetting God. Jesus came to set them straight and they killed him for it.

So you are saying that according to the holy bible:
A man goes on a 15 year killing spree where he kills 2,000 people and rapes their dead bodies before finally getting caught and arrested.
Then right before he is executed he repents and accepts the lord Jesus as his personal savior.
Then he gets electrocuted.
Then he arrives in heaven with a big holy smile on his face.
Then in heaven he sees some of the people that he murdered and raped and they smile towards him and say "welcome home brother"! ??

Still figuring out this quote thing. Sorry for the obfuscation.

You have never repented, obviously. It is not a pleasant experience to realize the impact of your sins on others. The murderer/rapist will NOT be smiling big smiles upon reaching heaven if he really repented, he will not be able to look God in the eye for shame and grief, but he will be welcomed with open arms by a truly merciful God. God is seeking each and every one of us out every day and calling us to him. We can choose to ignore or listen. No repentence- self centered universe. Repent, center yourself around God. It is what our souls thirst for.

Ok fine he can't look God in the eye, but he gets to enjoy heaven forever right along side his victims....well the victims that were Christians, the ones who are not God sent to the lake of fire, after being raped and murdered of course.

While some Indian medicine man who devoted his life to helping his tribe, but never heard of Jesus burns in hell...

At one point, we abandoned our creator. He is knocking on the door and waiting for us to answer. Read Eternity in Their Hearts to find that God and Jesus are part of the mythos of many many pre and post Christian cultures. His ways are mysterious and we most likely do not understand (that means I don't understand, but also you.) Perhaps, we will all be pleasantly surprised on the day of judgement (so long as we don't actively rebel and strive to be our own gods).
In response to modern vs ancient Christianity, I follow the BIBLE, nothing else, to find the answers.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: ketsuko
Because when getting into Heaven is simply based on works alone, it becomes a self-absorbed contest of the Holier Than Thou. Look at how many complain about them and judge them now. Think about how much worse it would be if our only hope of salvation was to participate in a bunch of moralistic do-gooding? Imagine the chest thumping then!

Remember, the admonition is to do what you do without bragging about it but simply to do it.

Such a thing becomes far less possible when doing those things becomes your only ticket into Heaven. God tried it with the old covenant. Follow my law, do my sacrifices, and you shall be redeemed ... Look at what become of the Pharisees who lived solely for the Law itself, forgetting God. Jesus came to set them straight and they killed him for it.

What?!?!?


Let's take faith healers for example...

They have belief in spades, but watched their child slowly die of a treatable illness ONLY because their faith was that strong...


So they go to heaven huh?


What about the westboro baptist types?

Faith in spades, but horrible works???


You sure it is not just way easier to defend the atrocities of the church and aristocracy when you can say,"well faith is all that really matters...."

Jesus did say there would be many at the end of days who call his name (LORD) that he never knew. ("Depart from me! I never knew you!")

In order to have faith in something, I would posit that a basic understanding of its nature is necessary. Crespin Dollar, who preaches the word and amasses mountains of fortune, must never have read Jesus's words regarding the rich. The most simple mind can understand Jesus but many refuse to. Those who have faith in Jesus strive to emulate Him, but fall short of his perfection. No excuse, though, to not follow His commandments (Love your God with all your heart. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.) All else usually rights itself if one strives for those two precepts.

So your personal modern flavor of Christianity is correct and everyone else has it wrong and will be rebucced by God in heaven????


Because first century Christians all the way to about a hundred years ago, were FAR closer to westboro than to your type of Christian.


So how do the modern flavors of Christianity trump the way it was practiced for millinia.

My "personal, modern flavor" comes directly from the word of God. It's in the Bible. Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13:27.

What are you talking about?

a reply to: JoshuaCox

There are many passages that point out that all our work's are in vain, only heaven is what matter's and GOD can and will give a new Spirit to those whom are saved.

Good work's are important but faith is far more important, whom do you do the good work's for.

Let me reconstruct that a little.

The devil, is he really just a savage lunatic whom goes around wrecking everything, he is our and our god's enemy but he has been known to make his own covenant's with those that he want's to serve him, oh the evil nasty little detritus that go to him and use evil ceremony's and other mumbo jumbo can be useful but they are NOT his chosen and if he had his way he would have no more use for them than God does for you see the Devil want's good people if he has to have any people at all.

Why, well Jesus pointed out a few factor's, if his house is divided how can it stand.
The Devil is also a builder (though more of a corruptor) he establishes or takes over kingdom's which is how he was able to claim that he owned all the kingdom's of the earth even though Jesus is the legitimate heir and owner of the world.
The Devil is also a Liar, the Father of lies so whom better to own the SUCCESSFUL politician's of all the nation's of the world.
The Devil is also not averse to making his covenant with children so that he can take over there lives and shape them to serve him (And no they don't become seriel killers and lunatic's there place is far more subtle in the corruption of God's plan's on earth), many may have half buried memory's or have blocked out the mysterious hissing old man that wispered in there ear one day when they were small children offering them a GOOD life if they gave him there soul and even identifying himself by one of his name's or even by none of them, most will think it to have been a half remembered nightmare or dream and nothing more and indeed he can and will block a person's memory's of it regardless of whether they said yay or nay.
He is evil but not as we portray him, he is the ENEMY of our soul's and our world but he was able to tempt and persuade a third of the enlightened spirit's of heaven to mutiny against there father so he was pretty persuasive to them making the pormises and claim's that we see in out politician's today.
Not saying that all politician's are of the devil but just pointing out a fact.

SO they whose live's the devil has destroyed, whom get called trash and scum, whom suffer poverty and destitution and fall into lives of crime and suffering are they the Devil's kid's, of course not they are the one's he want's destroyed ruining them and setting them against there own brother's and sister though OF course many of them ARE servant's of evil or in he case of Drug addict's Slaves of it.

And those the live comfortable privaledged lives, never knowing poverty are they all good or are they also a mixed bag of good and bad with the more powerful among them having a higher probability of being the Devil's chosen, part's of HIS kingdom on earth that IS opposed to Christ even if they do not know it.

Now If you do GOOD work's does it matter whom you do them for, of course not because though some are good and some bad, some bound knowingly or unknowingly to the evil one they are all children of God.


Now the Devil however does want the Human race destroyed, not wiped out but enthralled to him and corrupted to the point that there spirit's are dead within them, Faith is a barrier against this.

Hypocrisy is the real question, Faith without good work's is hollow but it is all about what a person is capable of, do Good works' and you do them FOR christ.
BUT good work's with no faith still serve him and he still take's note that there is a part of his Spirit inside that person that chooses to do them but he does not like those that do there good works in order to take credit for them or be lauded as GOOD people, he like's them done so that only he and god and those that are helped know about it.
Remember Christ is the one whom said to the rich, GO SELL ALL YOU OWN AND GIVE IT TO THE POOR THEN COME AND FOLLOW ME, yet we have right wing supposed christian pastors and politicians standing against Welfare and impoverishing the poorest even more just so that they can pay a tiny bit less tax, Christ whom said IF YOU HAVE TWO COATS AND YOUR BROTHER HAS NONE THEN GIVE HIM THE ONE YOU ARE NOT USING, yet today we have property speculators holding houses and land vacant, bank's foreclosing on the poorest whom have fallen on bad time's and increasing homelessness yet the DEVIL's kingdom grow's as a result of this.

SO good work's are essential but FAITH and the reason for any good work's is more important.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Why Would A Good God Use Faith Rather Than Works to Decide if your Worthy for Paradise?

No man can attain the perfection required by the Father.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Works are done out of Love for Jesus after accepting HIS gift in an attempt to live more Christ like, not in an attempt to impress Him and 'earn' something.

God is not impressed with the works of humans.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The authors of the Bible were Roman holy fathers, they codified all the known works about this religion to control people. blind faith keeps you subverted, good works actually elevate your station, these kinds of people own those stations and mind enslavement is how they keep it, a religion based in fear, the god of earth may have been like that in the past, but as civilization advanced and grew beyond racism and genocidal concepts of eradicating your enemies completely, biases against lifestyles, "He" grew up too, the god of this earth is the collective mental activity of all the people of earth, that's why he hasn't "returned" as promised, in the perceived form, not because he stopped believing in us, because we stopped believing in him. God as the universal creative force is, not the exact same as the Humans god, this god is the universal god, the god of all life in the universe, yes we're not alone.

If you believe you can do good (works) then you will also believe you can do bad. You will now also judge everything and everybody on whether they are good or bad - how can you be at peace (in heaven) if you can do bad and criticise all that is around you. This would be hell, surely?
Only when it is recognised that all is well can you be in heaven.
Why worry about where others are?

a reply to: EmmanuelGoldstein

As I said, only God knows if he's actually sorry/repented of that or merely afraid of what he thinks that consequences might be.

Sure every child is "sorry" they did something when they see punishment about to come down on them as a result of what they did, but they aren't actually "sorry" they did it in the first place.

When we talk about repenting, we aren't talking about simply saying you're sorry because you want to avoid being punished but really and truly feeling the remorse for what you did and feeling it keenly, understanding that what you did was wrong and why.

There is a massive difference. If you are going to be at all honest, you know it too.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Why would a good god who "loves" you not just start everyone of in paradise to begin with. Instead of setting people up to fail.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Here's the thing: If you read the Gospels and look at what Jesus taught and take faith in Him and His teachings seriously, then works are a natural outgrowth of that faith if you have it. It is inescapable, but to say that one must do works and by works alone are we measured fit to earn our way into Heaven sets you up to walk the path of the Pharisees.

It is the path of legalism which led the Pharisees to actually violate the commandments of God in their quest to venerate the Law. It becomes a form of idolatry. You start to do works for the sake of the works and not because you love God and are living as you know He would want you to.

originally posted by: WanderingNomadd
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Why would a good god who "loves" you not just start everyone of in paradise to begin with. Instead of setting people up to fail.

Because He gave you a choice.

a reply to: ketsuko

What choice? Believe in a book that reads like lord of the rings. Theres no actual proof. If I told you to believe in that stuff now people would call me retarded.

No one says it better than this guy.

a reply to: WanderingNomadd

There is that word again ... yes, I believe that word is faith. You should look it up, and then re-examine your call for hard evidence and understand why what you are asking for does not exist.

No one can prove faith to you in the way you demand.

If you are comfortable believing that faith is simply a bunch of fairy tales, then it's your choice, but then you really should not come in here and sneer at God for not starting you in paradise because it's a concept you claim not to believe in, so why are you so angry at it?

Romans 2:13-15
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

a reply to: ketsuko

For starters I am not angry I am voicing an opinion and personal belief. Sorry if that bursts your bubble but as a member of this site I retain the right to comment on threads either in agreement or not.

Religion was invented and manipulated by those wishing to control people as far as I am concerned. The bible has many good moral suggestions of course, some just seem to want to control you for the benefit of others. I have yet to met a true christian. One who does'nt support or get involved in organised religion because its greedy, superficial and corrupt. A true christian would'nt live in a owned house, have a Tv or anything else. A true christain would have a Bible and faith in god to supply what he needs as he wanders around helping peoplea and following the bible word for word.

I like how christainity is adapting to the times. No one said this is ok, No flash of light from the sky writing new passages on the earth. People have just started adapting the bible to suit modern life. Smells like bull# to me, Sounds like the bible should fit them as opposed to them fitting the bible.

As far as I am concerned if you say your religious you should follow your bible word for word, no excuses, no exceptions. Interpretation and manipulation means your obviously not really a christain whether you believe in God or not. Christains vote for rich liars to run countrys when they should be protesting them as they are an affront their beliefs.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Remember Christ is the one whom said to the rich, GO SELL ALL YOU OWN AND GIVE IT TO THE POOR THEN COME AND FOLLOW ME, yet we have right wing supposed christian pastors and politicians standing against Welfare and impoverishing the poorest even more just so that they can pay a tiny bit less tax, Christ whom said IF YOU HAVE TWO COATS AND YOUR BROTHER HAS NONE THEN GIVE HIM THE ONE YOU ARE NOT USING, yet today we have property speculators holding houses and land vacant, bank's foreclosing on the poorest whom have fallen on bad time's and increasing homelessness yet the DEVIL's kingdom grow's as a result of this.

This is one of the most misunderstood points in scripture today because it is one of the most heavily politicized. The left loves to use it against those who would stand in the way of their Marxist agenda.

What Christ was really doing was teaching that you must love God before all else, even your wealth. The young man in question asked what he must do in order to get into Heaven, and Christ told him - You must give up all to follow me. It's the same repetition of the message we see all throughout the Gospels. You must have faith in Him before all else. Nothing else matters and nothing else will save you but that.

The young man failed the test because he did not love God enough to leave his comfortable life behind to follow Jesus.

His question is one every single Christian who is killed by ISIS today faces: Follow Christ or recant your faith and live on. It is the same question that was faced by the florist in Oregon and the bakers in Colorado who have been mostly financially ruined: recant your faith and keep your livelihood or Follow Christ.