Why Would A Good God Use Faith Rather Than Works to Decide if your Worthy for Paradise?

All this bickering back and forth, the division, stop it.

It's this simple:

If someone claims to be a Christian and is nasty to you, doesn't love you and acts in a way that causes ANYONE harm - that person is a liar - they are NOT a Christian, not in that moment anyway (and you should remind them of that).

If a person claims to be a Christian and then goes on to DO bad things then they're called to repent - if not they can be given over to a reprobate mind. Repentance is not being sorry by the way, it's turning away from your sin, so the guy who confesses on his deathbed and asks forgiveness has damned himself, he can't turn from his sin as he doesn't have that chance.

a reply to: Joneselius

Repentance is not being sorry by the way, it's turning away from your sin, so the guy who confesses on his deathbed and asks forgiveness has damned himself, he can't turn from his sin as he doesn't have that chance.

Er, what about that fellow on the cross next to Jesus?

originally posted by: WanderingNomadd
a reply to: ketsuko

For starters I am not angry I am voicing an opinion and personal belief. Sorry if that bursts your bubble but as a member of this site I retain the right to comment on threads either in agreement or not.

Religion was invented and manipulated by those wishing to control people as far as I am concerned. The bible has many good moral suggestions of course, some just seem to want to control you for the benefit of others. I have yet to met a true christian. One who does'nt support or get involved in organised religion because its greedy, superficial and corrupt. A true christian would'nt live in a owned house, have a Tv or anything else. A true christain would have a Bible and faith in god to supply what he needs as he wanders around helping peoplea and following the bible word for word.

I like how christainity is adapting to the times. No one said this is ok, No flash of light from the sky writing new passages on the earth. People have just started adapting the bible to suit modern life. Smells like bull# to me, Sounds like the bible should fit them as opposed to them fitting the bible.

As far as I am concerned if you say your religious you should follow your bible word for word, no excuses, no exceptions. Interpretation and manipulation means your obviously not really a christain whether you believe in God or not. Christains vote for rich liars to run countrys when they should be protesting them as they are an affront their beliefs.

Jesus did not come to change the political climate. He specifically said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, render unto God that which is God's." We are here to grow in spirit, in light and in truth, and to (by example, ideally) help others so inclined to do the same.

That the Bible is still relevant today is a testament to its worth (divine worth, in my opinion.. but hey it's your choice if you don't agree.. I respect that).

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Atheist who devotes their life to helping those less fortunate than themselves? BRAKE, no heaven you burn in hell!!

In what universe are these the actions of a benevolent God of love??

Short answer would be: A universe in which the abstract concept of a place called "heaven" is more real than what we see, feel, touch, hear, smell, taste, find of value, and interact with daily and nightly.

Since you are asking these questions, it would seem that this Bible character god is a thing foreign to you, your ideas, and your way of life. If this character were native to you, then you could not so easily think of it as separate from you and your experience of life.

To illustrate the difference between native and foreign:

El Segundo Blue Butterflies (photograph by stonebird/Flickr user)

...To prevent erosion of the recontoured sand dunes at the western edge of the Los Angeles International Airport in 1975, landscapers stabilized the backdunes with a “natural” seed mix (Mattoni 1989a). Unfortunately, the seed mix was representative of coastal sage scrub, an exogenous plant community, instead of the native dune scrub community. As a result, the El Segundo blue butterfly (Euphilotes battoides allyni) became an endangered species. The El Segundo Blue butterfly population, which had once extended over 3200 acres along the coastal dunes from to Ocean Park to Malaga cove in Palos Verdes, began to recover when the invasive California buckwheat (Eriogonum fasciculatum) was uprooted so that the butterflies' original native plant host, the dune buckwheat (Eriogonum parvifolium), could regain some of its lost habitat.

The rich diversity of unique species across many parts of the world exists only because bioregions are separated by barriers, particularly large rivers, seas, oceans, mountains and deserts.

Humans, migratory birds, ocean currents, etc. can introduce species that have never met in their evolutionary history, on varying time scales ranging from days to decades (Long, 1981; Vermeij, 1991). Humans are moving species across the globe at an unprecedented rate.
Native plant

There is an activity that humans engage in known as proselytizing (attempting to introduce a god foreign to a person, people, or region).

Western peoples live in an era which is post-proselytized, meaning that to many, this Bible god is the only god they know of, and are unaware of the native gods which have been displaced.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

do you know what a confidence game is?

a reply to: JoshuaCox

All manner of sins will be forgiven of men if they repent, that is the consistent theme throughout scripture.

a reply to: Joneselius

Repentance is not being sorry by the way, it's turning away from your sin, so the guy who confesses on his deathbed and asks forgiveness has damned himself, he can't turn from his sin as he doesn't have that chance.

Huh? The word translated as repent in the Bible is the Greek word "metanoia", and it means to change one's mind. This will of course over time, lead to a change in behavior because behavior is a secondary consequence of a person's thinking. But metanoia is a process of the mind, not the body.

I.E. "Repent ye and believe the gospel."

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Works is how you lived your life, faith is how you felt about it.... So which one is more about the self???

No, the Biblical concept of faith is better translated or understood as trust. A person is trusting in God which He counts as righteousness. A person going about trying to justify themselves to God is an abomination, it's a rejection of the free gift He has given to mankind. Gifts cannot be earned, they must be freely accepted.

Ketsuko, in response to your response to the point I made.

You must also recognise that I am NOT a marxist*, I actually point out that the Atheist Marx used ideology that was in part very much the same as Christianity.

Oh before you go prattling on about Marx perhaps you should have a good look at pre-constantine christianity, you know the one before the pagan priest of Rome were brought in to manage the NEW state religion.

Ever hear of a house church, or the Christian principle of Communal living, sharing and fair distribution by a person's need's (not there work's) within the church as they are all of one body in Christ.

No then you obviously do not get it.


*I do hold social ideals because I am a man whome believes in Ethical and Moral standard's and Social ideal's and are actually Correct Minded.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: JoshuaCox

All manner of sins will be forgiven of men if they repent, that is the consistent theme throughout scripture.

All of the repenting in the world will not save you if you do not sell your soul to Jesus. Insurmountable debt is the prerequisite for eternal dependence. Extortion 101

a reply to: TzarChasm

He already owns it to begin with.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: TzarChasm

He already owns it to begin with.

Nice try. Anything that is me is my property no exceptions.

a reply to: LABTECH767

There is very much a difference between people who freely share what they have among one another and those who take that bit of scripture and use it politically.

Understand that your admonition was just as much fueled by greed as anything someone with wealth may do. It is also verging on the type of legalistic virtue signaling this thread is about at its root.

Here you are sneering at all those who preach about prosperity and then talk about how they should give up all they have to the poor ... Isn't that simply another form of telling them to buy their way into heaven?

So you long for the days of the house church? Fine, then stop telling everyone else they must do that in order to be perfect Christians and go form one with others who believe as you do about it all. Your very breast beating is a form of Holier Than Thou-ness that Sermon on the Mount also preaches against. If you did what you suggest, then would you simply live that way or would you come here and boast about it to all and sundry in your pride?

Understand, I do not like or advocate prosperity gospel at all. I think it's wrong, but I similarly do not think Jesus spent all his time telling people they had to give everything up in order to buy their way into Heaven. Is that not simply another way of saying we are judged on our works more than our faith?

Rather, I think the message is and always has been that we are not of this world and must be willing to give it all up in favor of our faith when called. That measure of faith will lead us to be generous with what we have because it is transient and will not last like the things of Heaven will.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

TextThe bible supports allowing any monster who repents and converts into the kingdom of heaven, no matter how horrendous the crime. EXCEPT the crime of not believing in the church's interpretation of 2000 year old Bronze Age texts. That is the only unforgivable sin.

Don't really understand where you are coming from. Are you angry at some god that you don't even believe exists? If this god that you are bad mouthing is simply an imaginary friend of stupid people then let the people be stupid. You can't change the way people think by bad mouthing them. Don't you believe everyone has the same rights of thinking the way they want to think as long as it does not harm anyone?

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Works and faith...

You have to understand what these are, in order to understand why the difference is important to God.

Let us delve into a hypothetical for a moment, to see if we cannot make the distinction clearer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A man spends every Sunday of his entire life in church, and after services, he tends the grounds, keeps the graves, prays constantly for forgiveness, and goes home every night to beat the hell out of his wife and molest his children. He has, on the visible face of things, done much for the church, and is pious in that he spends so much time in prayer and contemplation of his sins. He has done great works, in the name of God, and yet is not repentant of his sins, because for all that he goes through the visible motions of praying for forgiveness, doing church work, and being amazing to all but his own family, he has never stopped doing the worst of the things he does, never attoned for them, for the spreading of darkness throughout his family.

Another man has never spent a single day in church, never read more of the Bible than he has seen printed on a sign at the side of the road, as he runs yet another batch of narcotics across state lines, armed to the teeth in case he is stopped. He has blood on his hands, although it is long washed away by time and scrubbing. He has never lifted a finger in support of the church in his life, never donated to it, never considered it, save for that one moment, today, when he sees a sign that says something to him, in a voice so loud that he almost crashes his car. He reverses, reads it again, and pulls of the highway to find the church that put up the sign. He hands himself into the police that day, despite the fact that his bosses will want to kill him once they find out how he got to jail in the first place. He has faith, that despite the fact that he may die, the scales which have been lifted from his eyes were worth removing. He has faith that if he passes from this world, having given up the life he was living, having accepted Jesus and repented of his sins, he will be forgiven them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The reality is that no human being alive today, or any other than Christ himself, who have ever lived, were perfect. All of us, every one of us has sinned at some point, and most of us are doing it right now in some way or another. The difference between someone who covers their sins with works, and someone who attempts to CEASE sinning as they were, is faith. Repentance, genuine, down to the soul repentance, is the most gigantic act of faith that a person can involve themselves with.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I see you are woefully confusing things here...and generalizing while its much simpler than you are making it.

Be a believer in any religion, have faith, show it by your daily life style(s) and deeds...and do the best you can. And FAITH is the key. With it...and good works put into practice, one establishes the old adage: "You are what you eat(sleep, do, act and react to others)"...and with faith...one should believe salvation is possible.

And no...you cant spend your life killing, stealing, lying, raping, bear false witness against others...and in that last millisecond before you die...you yell really loud and fast "God, Im sorry!"...and BOOM! You get into heaven.

Its a catch 22 there. Its the INTENT and practice of living a life as best as you can and have faith you've done so...Because God-He/She/They/Them/It...knows your heart...and sees you live it.

One can have faith..but faith without efforts...is meaningless. And thats the good thing about repenting. One CAN get to heaven by forgiveness...after all..it IS God's House...knock and ye shall enter.

These metaphors really are quite simple!

God Bless ya.....MS

a reply to: ketsuko

No Ketsuko, you can not turn this around and try to point he finger because you are not correct though sadly you are in the company of many misguided self styled right wing pastors and those that TWIST the meaning then accuse other's of doing exactly what they are doing themselve's.

As for Legalistic Crap, well I was not being legalistic but it does show the tactic and thought behind your own attempt to twist the word's of Christ to your own belief, a belief based on that same attempt to call fair taxation and welfare system's greed.

You know what the big joke is, they will remove the Welfare system's but the Tax will continue to rise, the richer you are the less tax you will pay while the poor and the lower middle class will be ever more burdened with tax to make up for the short fall.

Some are so Blinded with Anti Socialist Rhetoric and an upbringing by quite frankly illiterate and corrupted belief's that deny Christs words and there meaning's that they will even attack the new testament or twist and re-interpret the meaning of any passages related to it.

Now let me re quote what jesus said.
Whatever you do to the least of these you do also unto me.

So you think removing welfare and the genuinely anti christian (corrupting Christianity is most certainly the same thing as Anti Christianity as it has the same end) political and economic conservative point's of view.

Now let me asky you since you have publicly accused me here, how is my post motivated by GREED.
And bare in mind you DO NOT KNOW ME OR MY CIRCUMSTANCES, but let me tell you this I am a descendant of Aristocracy (not that I believe in the concept as all hereditary aristocracy) so you have no idea about my backgrounds or the business and property my family own though I shall tell you my mother is the victim of serious financial conspiracy and fraud reaching into the government of the UK and the sole rightful Heir of Lord Tattersall, rightful owner of the Tattersall bloodstock's and Aintree property's, property in Kensington London, Manchester, Liverpool city centre - (derby square - one bill davis was behind that part of the fraud and theft of her inheritance along with one Rex Makin of Silverman and Livermoor solicitors whom is the biggest thief to ever walk on two leg's).

So you have NO idea about me, HOW DARE YOU, YOU suggest I am motivated by GREED.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Perfectly and astutely stated, well said.

Superb analogy's.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

The bible supports allowing any monster who repents and converts into the kingdom of heaven, no matter how horrendous the crime. EXCEPT the crime of not believing in the church's interpretation of 2000 year old Bronze Age texts. That is the only unforgivable sin. Child rapist and murderer who repents and converts in prison??? No problem your going to heaven! Regular adult rapist who repents? Going to heaven. Child abuser or cheater who converts and repents? Heading to heaven! Atheist who devotes their life to helping those less fortunate than themselves? BRAKE, no heaven you burn in hell!!

Do you think that God views our goodness in relation to that of our neighbors?

A) who could ever consider that the policy of a benevolent god?

Not sure what you are asking here could you clarify?

a reply to: LABTECH767

No Ketsuko, you can not turn this around and try to point he finger because you are not correct though sadly you are in the company of many misguided self styled right wing pastors and those that TWIST the meaning then accuse other's of doing exactly what they are doing themselve's.

It's a bizarre cognitive disorder that most self-styled right-wingers suffer from.
They just don't get it. Walking around saying you believe in something that is preposterous, and so you don't have to do anything nice or help anyone else unless you feel like it, is their best schtick.

Not to mention that strange phenomenon of people who are otherwise fairly bright, but somehow still think they only have to say they believe. They never explain how one can "make" oneself believe such a bullcrap excuse for selfishness and disregard for those who are suffering - they're just oppositional enough to say, "Nu uh!! I don't have to share or help out! And you can't MAKE ME!! Because JESUS said I don't have to, that all I have to do is say he exists and I believe he exists. That's all. I can do whatever the hell I want to anyone else, or do nothing at all for the benefit of ANYONE else except my own precious self that has a guaranteed ticket to heaven and screw everyone else."

A dedicated public service provider, teacher, helper, social worker, nurse, caregiver ------ whether paid or a volunteer, who is not a "believer" or not a heterosexual will still burn in hell as far as they're concerned (and they are delighted by that idea).


Those people mentioned above - the helpers who aren't heterosexual "believers" are no better than a rapist in the minds of this type of Christian. They call themselves "Christians" and act like jerks consistently, every day, without apology or remorse, and are forever insisting that it is okay for them to be deliberately prickish. Because they "say they believe" in a ridiculous mythical being.

Tactic of a petulant adolescent. Or a brainwashing victim. Sadly, they can't get out of the trap, because every time they "pray" they feel they are 'forgiven' - they don't actually have to apologize or humble themselves. They don't actually have to share, or even care!, about their neighbors. Because if the neighbors are not able to support themselves, they are scum anyway....and if those neighbors ALSO don't believe, and can't or won't force themselves to believe that some guy in white robes is coming on a cloud to kill everyone who doesn't believe he exists, then those neighbors aren't worth the time of day.

It's preposterous. A cruel reality of the brainwashed masses is that they really don't give a crap about anyone, and they don't think they have to. Because "faith alone." What crap. Absolute crap.

Such a cop out.

"Well, I'm not nice, but it's okay, because I believe on Jesus."

They don't get that no, it's not okay. They don't get the "yes, you really have to be nice and you really have to gladly help others" to be a decent person. I've figured out that they will never, ever see how twisted their own thinking is, or how ugly they are.

Someone above said "tell them." But if you try, they'll say "I know, I suck every day at doing it, but I still say "jesus" at the end of each day that I'm a failure of a compassionate human being.....so it's all good. I only have to tell HIM I'm sorry, and it's all good."

Ridiculous.