Why Would A Good God Use Faith Rather Than Works to Decide if your Worthy for Paradise?

The bible supports allowing any monster who repents and converts into the kingdom of heaven, no matter how horrendous the crime. EXCEPT the crime of not believing in the church's interpretation of 2000 year old Bronze Age texts. That is the only unforgivable sin.


Child rapist and murderer who repents and converts in prison??? No problem your going to heaven!


Regular adult rapist who repents? Going to heaven.


Child abuser or cheater who converts and repents? Heading to heaven!


Atheist who devotes their life to helping those less fortunate than themselves? BRAKE, no heaven you burn in hell!!


In what universe are these the actions of a benevolent God of love??


How many billions of native Americans and other nations who weren't "lucky" enough to be born in the Middle East, has God sentenced to eternal damnation with outgoing them ever even having heard of the European continent , let alone their flavor of religion?

Would you want a friend or parent who was cool if you raped and murdered people, as long as you believe in their imagainary friend?





A) who could ever consider that the policy of a benevolent god?

B) who would want to go to a heaven full of humanities worst people, there is no more hardcore, religious group than your local jails and prisons?

Because Heaven requires perfection, which no one can attain. Good works to get into Heaven is actually putting the focus on me, look what I have done, look how great I am. Faith makes one look outward, and naturally results in good works. You can't have faith if there are no works that flow from it.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Because Heaven requires perfection, which no one can attain. Good works to get into Heaven is actually putting the focus on me, look what I have done, look how great I am. Faith makes one look outward, and naturally results in good works. You can't have faith if there are no works that flow from it.

Excellent point.

Plus the whole thing is fake, so there's that too.

Because when getting into Heaven is simply based on works alone, it becomes a self-absorbed contest of the Holier Than Thou. Look at how many complain about them and judge them now. Think about how much worse it would be if our only hope of salvation was to participate in a bunch of moralistic do-gooding? Imagine the chest thumping then!

Remember, the admonition is to do what you do without bragging about it but simply to do it.

Such a thing becomes far less possible when doing those things becomes your only ticket into Heaven. God tried it with the old covenant. Follow my law, do my sacrifices, and you shall be redeemed ... Look at what become of the Pharisees who lived solely for the Law itself, forgetting God. Jesus came to set them straight and they killed him for it.

Well if we take it to the point where I put God in the position of owing me something then salvation is not a gift .If its not a gift and we have to gain the system then it becomes something that would advantage some while putting others at a disadvantage . Faith is a equalizer .Weather poor or rich or week or strong or smart or dumb . ....I don't think anyone showing up there are going to be carrying any chips to cash in ...

a reply to: BiffWellington

Welcome to your opinion.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

What happens here is not done by anyone but God - if this is not realised then you will suffer from whatever happens - it will be hellish.
You are suffering from 'blame' - you are angry with how things appear - so you are living in hell.
Whatever happens is the cosmic law.

If you want to change what is into an illusory what should be then there is suffering.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Well if we take it to the point where I put God in the position of owing me something then salvation is not a gift .If its not a gift and we have to gain the system then it becomes something that would advantage some while putting others at a disadvantage . Faith is a equalizer .Weather poor or rich or week or strong or smart or dumb . ....I don't think anyone showing up there are going to be carrying any chips to cash in ...

Precisely.

While I won't say that faith is the simplest thing in the world. It's not.

It is one requirement that any is capable of no matter their station or circumstance. Yes, even the very wealthy can have faith or the worst murderer or child rapist can come to truly understand that they need a bunch of very deep forgiveness and honestly repent of what they did.

And it's very easy for us on the outside to look at those people and say they can't possibly be serious because we don't know, but God does and can. He can do what we can't - read the inner seeming, the heart of a person. You can't lie to Him.

That's what this cry for works over faith here really is. We can't read another's heart, so we want to see evidence with our eyes that we can quantify. We forget that God doesn't need that.

a reply to: ketsuko

It raises the question of ,if by works then how many or of what quality is enough .I have talked to some that use prayer beads and I joke well ,what happens if you miss it by one bead . Giving is always a good thing but if you have little then you are not going to give much .Likewise if you got tons then you can give a lot .

By grace we are save through faith and it is not of ourselves ,its a free unmerited gift ,other wise it would not be by grace .

To a degree, words are more powerful and last longer then deeds. If you don't want to talk about things that happened 2000 years ago, Let's look at America today

Ask an Obama supporter if Obama administration is transparent. Obama keeps saying that he's the most transparent president ever. The releases indicate the opposite.

Ask an Obama supporter if the Obama administration is peaceful or warmongering? They will say peaceful, even though there is a string of dead bodies through out the world that shows his warmongering.

Faith is powerful, and not usually logical.

And God is relational, so it comes down to an individual's relationship with God
Not theirs with you or a priest, judge, or whatever

originally posted by: ketsuko
Because when getting into Heaven is simply based on works alone, it becomes a self-absorbed contest of the Holier Than Thou. Look at how many complain about them and judge them now. Think about how much worse it would be if our only hope of salvation was to participate in a bunch of moralistic do-gooding? Imagine the chest thumping then!

Remember, the admonition is to do what you do without bragging about it but simply to do it.

Such a thing becomes far less possible when doing those things becomes your only ticket into Heaven. God tried it with the old covenant. Follow my law, do my sacrifices, and you shall be redeemed ... Look at what become of the Pharisees who lived solely for the Law itself, forgetting God. Jesus came to set them straight and they killed him for it.

So you are saying that according to the holy bible:
A man goes on a 15 year killing spree where he kills 2,000 people and rapes their dead bodies before finally getting caught and arrested.
Then right before he is executed he repents and accepts the lord Jesus as his personal savior.
Then he gets electrocuted.
Then he arrives in heaven with a big holy smile on his face.
Then in heaven he sees some of the people that he murdered and raped and they smile towards him and say "welcome home brother"! ??

a reply to: EmmanuelGoldstein
What do you think the chances are someone like that is actually sorry, and not just sorry they got caught?

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Would you want a friend or parent who was cool if you raped and murdered people, as long as you believe in their imaginary friend?

Lol, popped the bubble, you. Especially if they committed the crime(s), cover them up, got caught (instead of confessing) pleaded not guilty, sat there through the trial process mute, got convicted, sentenced and landed in jail.

NOW their sorry, now they repent, now they want forgiveness and absolution...

I'm not the judge, only the judge will decide at the end of things, each case is different. The 'books' have to be opened...

Each life is a sum total of all the things we have done, all the behavior towards others. Life is life long, so is the balance of justice.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I used to be a christian but some of the things written in the bible i totally disagree with. For instance what kind of just god only gives a man 1 single chance to get it right in this life knowing everyone is a failure and sending us all in the billions to eternity in hellfire.

Sorry but that bull# dont wash with me, and what about all those that dont beleive or have never had the opportunity to even know christianitys version of god and jesus, how is it fair or just to punish them to eternity of fire just because the opportunity didnt afford them.

I beleive we were made eternal in gods image, if god has no image and or nothing physical to compare him to then it stands to reason that god is a spiritual being, and if were made in his image then we are eternal spiritual beings made in his image. We reincarnate over and over in thia life and learn valuable lessons each time.

We are not condemned to eternal damnation, that is just fear made up by the church to control the masses. An all loving, all seeing and all merciful and wise god would never unjustly give man one chance to get it right, and anyone with half a brain can see that too.

originally posted by: EmmanuelGoldstein

originally posted by: ketsuko
Because when getting into Heaven is simply based on works alone, it becomes a self-absorbed contest of the Holier Than Thou. Look at how many complain about them and judge them now. Think about how much worse it would be if our only hope of salvation was to participate in a bunch of moralistic do-gooding? Imagine the chest thumping then!

Remember, the admonition is to do what you do without bragging about it but simply to do it.

Such a thing becomes far less possible when doing those things becomes your only ticket into Heaven. God tried it with the old covenant. Follow my law, do my sacrifices, and you shall be redeemed ... Look at what become of the Pharisees who lived solely for the Law itself, forgetting God. Jesus came to set them straight and they killed him for it.

So you are saying that according to the holy bible:
A man goes on a 15 year killing spree where he kills 2,000 people and rapes their dead bodies before finally getting caught and arrested.
Then right before he is executed he repents and accepts the lord Jesus as his personal savior.
Then he gets electrocuted.
Then he arrives in heaven with a big holy smile on his face.
Then in heaven he sees some of the people that he murdered and raped and they smile towards him and say "welcome home brother"! ??

Still figuring out this quote thing. Sorry for the obfuscation.

You have never repented, obviously. It is not a pleasant experience to realize the impact of your sins on others. The murderer/rapist will NOT be smiling big smiles upon reaching heaven if he really repented, he will not be able to look God in the eye for shame and grief, but he will be welcomed with open arms by a truly merciful God. God is seeking each and every one of us out every day and calling us to him. We can choose to ignore or listen. No repentence- self centered universe. Repent, center yourself around God. It is what our souls thirst for.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Because Heaven requires perfection, which no one can attain. Good works to get into Heaven is actually putting the focus on me, look what I have done, look how great I am. Faith makes one look outward, and naturally results in good works. You can't have faith if there are no works that flow from it.

What?!?!


How is someone devoting their entire life to their people lesser than if you believe in Jesus really really hard...


Faith is not needed for good works and there are PLENTY of the MOST FAITHFUL who are horrible people.


Anyone who faith heals their child obviously has faith in spades, but they watched their kid slowly die rather than give them antibiotics...

originally posted by: ketsuko
Because when getting into Heaven is simply based on works alone, it becomes a self-absorbed contest of the Holier Than Thou. Look at how many complain about them and judge them now. Think about how much worse it would be if our only hope of salvation was to participate in a bunch of moralistic do-gooding? Imagine the chest thumping then!

Remember, the admonition is to do what you do without bragging about it but simply to do it.

Such a thing becomes far less possible when doing those things becomes your only ticket into Heaven. God tried it with the old covenant. Follow my law, do my sacrifices, and you shall be redeemed ... Look at what become of the Pharisees who lived solely for the Law itself, forgetting God. Jesus came to set them straight and they killed him for it.

What?!?!?


Let's take faith healers for example...

They have belief in spades, but watched their child slowly die of a treatable illness ONLY because their faith was that strong...


So they go to heaven huh?


What about the westboro baptist types?

Faith in spades, but horrible works???


You sure it is not just way easier to defend the atrocities of the church and aristocracy when you can say,"well faith is all that really matters...."

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Well if we take it to the point where I put God in the position of owing me something then salvation is not a gift .If its not a gift and we have to gain the system then it becomes something that would advantage some while putting others at a disadvantage . Faith is a equalizer .Weather poor or rich or week or strong or smart or dumb . ....I don't think anyone showing up there are going to be carrying any chips to cash in ...

Works wouldn't be about money.....

Most of the things we say are the best "works" are also free. Being faithful to your spouse, love ing and teaching children, exc,exc,exc.


Works require no money.

Works are the way you lived your life.

Faith is how you felt about it.


So which one is more about the self?

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: ketsuko
Because when getting into Heaven is simply based on works alone, it becomes a self-absorbed contest of the Holier Than Thou. Look at how many complain about them and judge them now. Think about how much worse it would be if our only hope of salvation was to participate in a bunch of moralistic do-gooding? Imagine the chest thumping then!

Remember, the admonition is to do what you do without bragging about it but simply to do it.

Such a thing becomes far less possible when doing those things becomes your only ticket into Heaven. God tried it with the old covenant. Follow my law, do my sacrifices, and you shall be redeemed ... Look at what become of the Pharisees who lived solely for the Law itself, forgetting God. Jesus came to set them straight and they killed him for it.

What?!?!?


Let's take faith healers for example...

They have belief in spades, but watched their child slowly die of a treatable illness ONLY because their faith was that strong...


So they go to heaven huh?


What about the westboro baptist types?

Faith in spades, but horrible works???


You sure it is not just way easier to defend the atrocities of the church and aristocracy when you can say,"well faith is all that really matters...."

Jesus did say there would be many at the end of days who call his name (LORD) that he never knew. ("Depart from me! I never knew you!")

In order to have faith in something, I would posit that a basic understanding of its nature is necessary. Crespin Dollar, who preaches the word and amasses mountains of fortune, must never have read Jesus's words regarding the rich. The most simple mind can understand Jesus but many refuse to. Those who have faith in Jesus strive to emulate Him, but fall short of his perfection. No excuse, though, to not follow His commandments (Love your God with all your heart. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.) All else usually rights itself if one strives for those two precepts.