There is only TWO things you need for a middle class

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed
a reply to: thinline

I'm no economist.

But wouldn't having the lower class making slightly more income just funnel all of that money back into the super wealthy's pockets?

The lower class that's making $15/hr isn't going to be saving or investing that money. They're going to just buy more crap that they want and need from corporations. Perhaps with the illusion that they aren't slave labor.

Yes. This is correct. This is why "trickle-up economics" makes sense while "trickle-down economics" is a load of horse manure.

originally posted by: thinline

If you do things like $15 minimal wage, to try to bring the lower class to the middle class,

TIL; providing a living wage of 31,200 before taxes is making the working poor the middle class.

You are so out of touch it's terrifying.

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: thinline

If you do things like $15 minimal wage, to try to bring the lower class to the middle class,

TIL; providing a living wage of 31,200 before taxes is making the working poor the middle class.

You are so out of touch it's terrifying.

The state you live in plays a major role here. In metro NY, $31k per year is dog crap. You cannot live even modestly with that income unless you rent with roommates.

a reply to: thinline

Pleaseeee stay in (or go back to) school...

a reply to: eNumbra

If you double the minimum wage from 15k a year to 30k a year, you'll double the cost of living along with it. That's how it works. There might be a bit of lag- maybe a year or two... but when you double the base income, the base cost of rent, food, and electricity will also double.

Adding more money to a failing monetary system doesn't solve the underlying issues associated with fiat currency, creating more laws won't *ever* create fewer crimes, and upping the minimum wage won't fix poverty.

But upping the minimum wage does a fantastic job of helping inflation along, which is what keeps the banksters in power over us little people. It is also a great way to keep the hard workers from getting ahead- every time the minimum wage goes up 10%, the base cost of living follows suite- making that difference in dollars an effective pay cut to anyone earning more than minimum wage.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the minimum wage needs to stay low- I'm just saying that raising it doesn't fix the underlying problems. There is a complete lack of market value for the average persons time. There are too many people, and not enough paying jobs- so wages stay low, and whoever is willing to work for that wage gets the job. There are plenty of people who won't work for that wage (And I don't blame them!) but there are no other jobs for them. We shipped all the manufacturing jobs overseas to make our trinkets cheaper, and now we're standing around asking eachother why we can't afford them.

Those of us who are skilled enough to make a decent living will only be hurt by a rapid increase in minimum wage as the cost of living will spike rapidly following the minimum wage increase. Give the minimum wage people a $15,000 a year raise, and my cost of living will go up by nearly $15,000 in the next three years- as will theirs. Only they're now making that much more- and I am not.
Of course, if you look at that as a percentage, you'll start to see why the rich don't care. 15k out of a 200k a year salary isn't nothing, but it's hardly a dent compared to, say, someone who is currently earning 40k a year.

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: thinline

If you do things like $15 minimal wage, to try to bring the lower class to the middle class,

TIL; providing a living wage of 31,200 before taxes is making the working poor the middle class.

You are so out of touch it's terrifying.

The state you live in plays a major role here. In metro NY, $31k per year is dog crap. You cannot live even modestly with that income unless you rent with roommates.

Just feel the need to point out, in Portland Maine(where they're talking about doubling minimum wage) *almost* everyone under the age of 35 is either in an apartment with 2+ room mates or living with their parents.
Double the income of those room mates, and the rent will double to compensate... right before all the jobs leave town.

i personally want the people whom are opposed to the min wage increase, preferably an average family of 4, to live on minimum wage for a year with no other outside resources, just a low income paying job, then i want to see their opinions on the matter.

originally posted by: lordcomac

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: thinline

If you do things like $15 minimal wage, to try to bring the lower class to the middle class,

TIL; providing a living wage of 31,200 before taxes is making the working poor the middle class.

You are so out of touch it's terrifying.

The state you live in plays a major role here. In metro NY, $31k per year is dog crap. You cannot live even modestly with that income unless you rent with roommates.

Just feel the need to point out, in Portland Maine(where they're talking about doubling minimum wage) *almost* everyone under the age of 35 is either in an apartment with 2+ room mates or living with their parents.
Double the income of those room mates, and the rent will double to compensate... right before all the jobs leave town.

I agree. Which brings up the fact that some sort of rent control needs to be brought into effect. The only problem here is that so many apartments around where I live are actually illegal. The majority I'd say.

So we're just screwed.

a reply to: thinline

We live in strange times indeed.

Saw the Sunday Fareed Zakaria show and he interviewed an author who discussed the class and income problem in the US and pointed out several interesting things.

One, class distinctions between the middle class and the lower class have as much to do with culture and values as anything. Thus one of the reasons the US middle class is disappearing is because those people have lost their cultural identity and have sunk into steep moral decline and decay. One of the most important values was the work ethic and that was supported by strong family bonds.

Then he pointed out that the reasons the lower classes don't advance into the middle class is because they're never taught the values and moral codes of the middle class; the jobs that would pay enough to move the lower classes into middle class status are disappearing; and finally because there's been sharply increased residential segregation on the basis of class identity.

Where I live, there are only really four classes, the working class living on minimum wage service jobs and poorly paying goverment jobs. Then there's the "retired" working class that are either fully retired or partially retired, basically living hand to mouth. Then there's the "drug" & welfare class. And finally there's the Rich People.

The Rich People, we only see on Sundays when they come to town to go to church. I encountered one at the local Family Dollar store on Sunday and he was quite typical............very haughty, mean and scowling. Everyone just got out of his way. They usually don't shop in town; they have 1000 or more acre ranches/homesteads with air strips and everything they need comes in by air. Their kids drive through in their Lamborghini's and Ferrari's and sometimes stop at the local bars; they're very loud and obnoxious.

As the middle class dies off......literally, there will only be the working/drug and welfare class and the wealthy class.

originally posted by: lordcomac

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: thinline

If you do things like $15 minimal wage, to try to bring the lower class to the middle class,

TIL; providing a living wage of 31,200 before taxes is making the working poor the middle class.

You are so out of touch it's terrifying.

The state you live in plays a major role here. In metro NY, $31k per year is dog crap. You cannot live even modestly with that income unless you rent with roommates.

Just feel the need to point out, in Portland Maine(where they're talking about doubling minimum wage) *almost* everyone under the age of 35 is either in an apartment with 2+ room mates or living with their parents.
Double the income of those room mates, and the rent will double to compensate... right before all the jobs leave town.

You planning on posting any statistics or evidence to back this proclamation up?

originally posted by: loam
Each time the minimum wage is raised that sound you hear is the woosh of jobs leaving our shores, given to illegals under the table, or the death throws of fledgling businesses.

Many things have to change in order to fix the middle class issue in this country. But perhaps the most important is that for as long as there is no parity in the labor markets of countries we enter into free trade agreements with, a domestic minimum wage policy will only further hurt the people it is intended to help.

Ya, but, each time prices increase. More people starve and unable to make a living. Capitalism. You got to love it right?
The rich gets richer and after making all the poors suffer. The middle class is next because they don't care about you unless you fight for them which means War(ehm, America). Not pointing fingers, just a warning.

originally posted by: JDeLattre89
a reply to: EmmanuelGoldstein

How you gonna go surfing with your $15, when it won't even buy a cheeseburger anymore because all the costs went up along with the expenses of paying a higher minimum wage?

I would never buy a cheeseburger. Are they even real meat? Gross

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: thinline

If you do things like $15 minimal wage, to try to bring the lower class to the middle class,

TIL; providing a living wage of 31,200 before taxes is making the working poor the middle class.

You are so out of touch it's terrifying.

The state you live in plays a major role here. In metro NY, $31k per year is dog crap. You cannot live even modestly with that income unless you rent with roommates.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any place in America where 31k a year isn't garbage.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
Socialism is government controlling the means to production.

There are many ways to "control the means of production".

Mandating salaries is one of them.

socialism removes class, america's socialist party has never held power, their not about too.
a minimum wage means lower class people feel better washing toilets.
britain has the minimum wage, our social classes are more divided than ever, hardly socialism.

originally posted by: lordcomac
a reply to: eNumbra

Adding more money to a failing monetary system doesn't solve the underlying issues associated with fiat currency, [...], and upping the minimum wage won't fix poverty.

Increasing the minimum wage doesn't "add more money to the system in the same way the fed "infuses" the economy and doesn't have the same effect.
Nobody has ever suggested it would, nothing short of free energy ever would, but it'll solve a number of issues plaguing country currently. Reality is though, everyone I see advocating the status quo does just that, so few are fighting to fix all the things that put us here in the first place.

As for the rest of your post that I snipped for clarity, I'd love to know which economists you're citing.

Need equal trade agreements, labor works under similar conditions
significantly cut immigration to restore wage levels and the ability to bargain.
Cut lower bracket taxes to 0%
Cut corporate taxes to 15%
cut ridiculous regulations
cut government jobs and destroy government unions. private unions are fine.
Take up the Hong Kong system of creating a business, takes 1 day.
Jobs that create things(manufacturing) are jobs that make wealth. Service jobs revolve around these jobs and servicing the service jobs. They are merely maintenance jobs. When those jobs leave or are given to illegals who then send the money south of the border and depress wages guess what happens? This current situation.
The Healthcare system needs to be overhauled, but I do not have the answer. Everyone is going to end up on a high deductible plan soon which is about as good as being uninsured and paying with cash.

Sending everyone to college does almost nothing. If the jobs do not come into existence there it is a net negative.

originally posted by: stinkelbaum

originally posted by: DBCowboy
Socialism is government controlling the means to production.

There are many ways to "control the means of production".

Mandating salaries is one of them.

socialism removes class, america's socialist party has never held power, their not about too.
a minimum wage means lower class people feel better washing toilets.
britain has the minimum wage, our social classes are more divided than ever, hardly socialism.

Interestingly, Socialism helped create the middle class as we know it post-WWII.

a reply to: thinline

This is where I think Trump is right. The only way to have a healthy society is by producing goods and either exporting them to foreign countries which is better or sell them domestically which at the scale of the US will work perfectly too.

If the factories are being shipped to semi-slave labour countries then who will receive the salaries?

These multinational companies must be stopped. The naive idea that being at the edge of technological evolution and that this is enough to ave a healthy society is an outdated solution, that could have worked when the low wage countries were producing toys and household goods, now they produce microchips, cellphones and computers from beginning to finish, some even hold control on rare earths, this so called "on the edge" formula has blown up.

This is why whether Trump is an asshole this idea he often speaks out it´s very important and possibly the only way to revert this impoverishing cycle in the western world.