resurrecting an F-22 hanger queen....

Much ado about the 'possibility' of another F-22 run. Points for and against have been made in earlier threads.

In this F-16net thread, The 'guess' is #4005, one of the original 8 test units built before(?) the 187 units run, Is being restored to flying status for a specific series of 'tests' that have not been announced. The speculation is that these tests will be for other than software upgrades already planned for the F-22 and are likely Hardware in nature.

Well into the thread a senior member posed the question "What would an F-22 with F-35 avionics be like?"

Another member responded, " An unimaginable nightmare for anything that goes up against it." A 'innocuous' exchange....cough, cough.

As Zaphod has already posted, another run would likely include upgraded avionics as the likely 'improvement' only.

Then there's this '2021' planned mid-life upgrade for the F-22:

"Not to get our hopes up, but 2021 will be a major year for the F-22 in which they'll start debating mid life upgrades (MLU) according to the same article. HMD discussions are again back into the mix with a goal of funding such an effort in the early 2020s according to the article. Given this is a former test aircraft, I can only imagine the mods to it would be so significant, they would prefer not to attempt them on existing flight test or test and evaluation role aircraft.

I'm actually in the middle of writing an article series on my website of what F-22C capabilities would look like whilst being fully cognizant of the fact that for political and economic reasons its unlikely. It would prioritize range (for Asia-Pac), central integrated processor (CIP) upgrades - 1980s hardware run on the prehistoric programming language "Ada", new sensors, and deep magazine capability. Again, this is Raptor fanboyism but some elements of these upgrades are certainly more plausible than others with some being opening acknowledged." (I made the image).

Attachments


F-22C.jpg

There is one possibility I would pose is the option of an early upgrade to F-35 avionics levels also a possibility?

Perhaps a working model would strengthen the chances of an added run, as well.

A few more hints from Zaphod would be appreciated.....

Thoughts?

Just slapping some software upgrade from one plane to another is probably as bad an idea as could ever be...

The entire system from the hardware to its software is built around the particular hardware.....bit like taking the engine management from a v8 chevvy and applying it to a big rig and expecting it to work with no changes.

There may be common core of routines so its not a 100% rewrite but it'll be at my estimation such a rewrite it might as well be considered a new code tree.

a reply to: Maxatoria


Actually, if I have it right, even the 'language' is totally different! The one used in the 22 is virtually obsolete
.

Much larger processors in the Raptor as well. No small task, at all...

Hi,

I like the idea of a upgraded CIP system. But as hinted at in this link:

www.militaryaerospace.com... rades.html

If based on the RISC design of the Intel 960mx, that rules out x86 as a recompile and validation would be needed. Also the fast x86 cpu's run hot and draw lots of power not a problem for my CAD workstation thats 6 feet from a outlet.

Also I've read that Hughes licensed the design of the 960 from Intel so a slight bump in speed and a process node change maybe possible. Be who own's that design now Raytheon, Boeing et al.

Interesting times

RAB

a reply to: RAB

Your link doesn't work

a reply to: Bfirez

Now it does.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Maxatoria


Actually, if I have it right, even the 'language' is totally different! The one used in the 22 is virtually obsolete
.

Much larger processors in the Raptor as well. No small task, at all...

Ada is about as old and obsolete as C++. It's just not as "popular".

a reply to: paradoxious

While it may mainly be c/c++ and of that era there could be ADA as well(!) there will probably custom assembler and hell it may need very specific compilers and linkers to generate the code, the chips themselves are power pc and are still in use by ibm and others but i'd doubt any modern spec would just be drop in replacement physically without a lot of testing.

a reply to: Maxatoria

"PowerPC", now that's a name I've not heard in a long time, a long time...

It still kills me that PowerPC became another detail of history while x86 keeps on trucking like some sort of roach that you just can't kill.

I WAS a Mac guy, until Steve Jobs decided to ditch the decades-long notion of not just thinking different™, but truly BEING different in the name of selling overpriced Windows boxes running a glorified Linux skin to up their margins so they could pay for the iPhone's development.

Standardization is something Israel figured out a long time ago in its armoured corps..How is the F22 airframe performing in regards to fatigue life?

a reply to: Blackfinger
A good question, I have heard about the corrosion issues and the air frame being referred to as aging in "dog years". If there is any restart of production or major upgrades including air frame service life extension then these issues need tackling as well. Now couple all this with an ADEPT derived engine and you have something very interesting.

LEE.

originally posted by: thebozeian
a reply to: Blackfinger
A good question, I have heard about the corrosion issues and the air frame being referred to as aging in "dog years". If there is any restart of production or major upgrades including air frame service life extension then these issues need tackling as well. Now couple all this with an ADEPT derived engine and you have something very interesting.

LEE.

ADEPT? I've know of the ADVENT. Is that the 'three stream engine' they refer to in the thread?

a reply to: nwtrucker

ADVENT is the first portion of the program. The next is AETP, not ADEPT. ADEPT is a lightweight V6 engine for piston aircraft.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Thank you. Now, the 'three stream'?

a reply to: nwtrucker

That's the point of ADVENT and AETP.

a reply to: nwtrucker

The processor may be old, but Ada is a great language for high-reliability high-performance code. I"d prefer flight software in Ada over anything else 'modern'. Ada is sophisticated and a much better language for serious software engineering than anything typically used in commercial industry (e.g. Java/JavaScript/C++ most commonly).

For embedded processors: right now everybody is going to ARM. Lower power consumption vs x86 is very important. I would not use the most advanced (i.e. smallest transistor size) process available: I would take something more radiation resistant. And more resistant to high power microwave interference.

originally posted by: mbkennel
a reply to: nwtrucker

The processor may be old, but Ada is a great language for high-reliability high-performance code. I"d prefer flight software in Ada over anything else 'modern'. Ada is sophisticated and a much better language for serious software engineering than anything typically used in commercial industry (e.g. Java/JavaScript/C++ most commonly).

For embedded processors: right now everybody is going to ARM. Lower power consumption vs x86 is very important. I would not use the most advanced (i.e. smallest transistor size) process available: I would take something more radiation resistant. And more resistant to high power microwave interference.

Your way out of my league...LOL.

I hold firm to the belief all computers are inherently evil..........especially P.C.s

a reply to: Zaphod58
Sorry, my bad. All these damn acronyms......

FWIW,

F-35 is written in C++, it even has its own standard nicknamed JSF++. It also uses IBM PowerPC processors. Here's the best article I could find on it. Here is the ICP hardware itself. Note that Block 3i includes updates to this, but I can't find further information.

iirc, since the i960 was obsolete so long ago, the F-22 now has i960 softcores implemented in FPGA's to run the original software. It also has IBM Power PC processors. Honestly I can't see ada being used for any new software development. Wouldn't surprise me if the MLU goes for a similar approach.

For whatever it's worth, in relation to this topic: back in one of the pre B-21 selection threads I mentioned that some Boeing engineers were heading to the Seattle area for a year or-so. From a second hand source the stay could include trips to Southern California. I had assumed that this was anticipating the bomber award.

To my surprise, I was later told that the reason for this was actually to write software for the F-22. I haven't dug into it, but would the AF award a software update to Boeing for a Lockheed product? Would Lockheed sub this update to Boeing? Shuffling resources between companies in anticipation of the bomber award?