Russia launches passenger plane to take on Airbus, Boeing

originally posted by: Velatropa24
I am dosappointed that you people turned a positive event into a thread of negativity.

The negative is that for Russia to actually produce anything aimed at commercial customers, it needs to sort out how to conduct business with the West and others.

Buying commercial airliners is massively expensive with long return on investment. Russia has not demonstrated that it is able to work with customers without political interference, corruption and other complications.

It's easier and less risky to buy from anyone but Russia.

Edit to add that it looks like a nice airliner, so that's a positive.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Velatropa24
I am dosappointed that you people turned a positive event into a thread of negativity.

The negative is that for Russia to actually produce anything aimed at commercial customers, it needs to sort out how to conduct business with the West and others.

Buying commercial airliners is massively expensive with long return on investment. Russia has not demonstrated that it is able to work with customers without political interference, corruption and other complications.

It's easier and less risky to buy from anyone but Russia.

Edit to add that it looks like a nice airliner, so that's a positive.

Are you going to back up your rant with some facts or just display how brainwashed you are?

a reply to: Velatropa24

In April of 2016, Russian corporate corruption dropped to being on par with Western levels. In 2015, companies offering bribes for contracts were at 24%, compared to the global average of 11%, that's down to 8% this year.

In addition, the number of Russian companies that offer bribes in exchange for contracts has fallen dramatically. Compared with last year, the figure has dropped threefold, from 24 down to 8 percent (with the global average at 11 percent).

These findings were reported by Ernst & Young, which polled representatives of 50 large Russian companies.

Similar findings were reported by PricewaterhouseCoopers, whose survey covered a larger number of companies: 120. Bribes and corruption were reported by 30 percent of those polled, marking a nearly twofold drop against 2014, when 58 percent of respondents complained of corruption.

Furthermore, the number of those who had first-hand experience of bribe extortion has halved (to 21 percent).

rbth.com...

They're improving a lot, but they still have a reputation for maintenance issues, poor reliability, and other problems. Add in that many people that buy Russian aircraft are forced to send them back to Russia for heavy maintenance checks, and people don't want to buy from them.

When you see aircraft from Boeing flying millions of flights since the 1990s, with almost no accidents (777) and having 99% dispatch rates (Boeing 737 and others), then which would you buy? An untested aircraft from a country with a reputation for poor reliability and corruption, or proven aircraft that perform well, and are bought around the world?

originally posted by: Velatropa24
Are you going to back up your rant with some facts or just display how brainwashed you are?

Ah, that's not very nice. I am not ranting. I think I am being factual. Please go ahead and prove me wrong.

To summarise. Russia's commercial aircraft industry is hobbled by a poor business environment. No Western company is going to risk their business by attempting to purchase these aircraft in in todays environment.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Velatropa24

In April of 2016, Russian corporate corruption dropped to being on par with Western levels. In 2015, companies offering bribes for contracts were at 24%, compared to the global average of 11%, that's down to 8% this year.

In addition, the number of Russian companies that offer bribes in exchange for contracts has fallen dramatically. Compared with last year, the figure has dropped threefold, from 24 down to 8 percent (with the global average at 11 percent).

These findings were reported by Ernst & Young, which polled representatives of 50 large Russian companies.

Similar findings were reported by PricewaterhouseCoopers, whose survey covered a larger number of companies: 120. Bribes and corruption were reported by 30 percent of those polled, marking a nearly twofold drop against 2014, when 58 percent of respondents complained of corruption.

Furthermore, the number of those who had first-hand experience of bribe extortion has halved (to 21 percent).

rbth.com...

Until you can write a personal account of being screwed over by doing business with Russia, your information is worth nothing. Googling "Russian corruption" and posting the first search result (western media slinging dirt at Rusdia at every convenient opportunitu) does not ammount to facts. You may as well google that the Earth is flat and post links to "facts" to a person that knows by experience that Earth is spherical. As far as corruption goes, US is no better, you don't need to look far - military industrial complex a good example. Seriously, there are those types of people that feel good about themselces by putting down others, because they have nothing of their own to offer, don't be like that.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Velatropa24
Are you going to back up your rant with some facts or just display how brainwashed you are?

Ah, that's not very nice. I am not ranting. I think I am being factual. Please go ahead and prove me wrong.

To summarise. Russia's commercial aircraft industry is hobbled by a poor business environment. No Western company is going to risk their business by attempting to purchase these aircraft in in todays environment.

For example US is buying Russian rocket engines, because they are efficient, powerful, cheap and reliable. As far as I know US is getting a good deal and not bribing anyone...

a reply to: Velatropa24

You really need to pay more attention. I have been one of the only ones to praise Russian equipment, when it deserves it. I get that you love Russia, but until they can prove that they can build and fly aircraft to the level that Airbus, Boeing, and others have, and that they have changed business practices, they're not going to sell in the West. I've dealt with Russian aircraft first hand, and some of their practices scared the crap out of everyone on the ramp at the time. I've also known people that dealt with Russian officials and companies, that have talked about how corrupt they are.

It has nothing to do with western media bashing Russia, when it is backed up with facts. When US companies try to do business in Russia and are expected to pay someone to even get a shot at bidding for a contract, that's the US bashing Russia?

Since you don't like Western sources, here are comments by a Russian government official on corruption in their space agency. It's even from a Russian source.

Russia's Audit Chamber has discovered $1.8 billion of financial violations in the Roscosmos space agency. According to Chamber head Tatyana Golikova, this included accounting violations, misuse of budget funds and inefficient spending on construction.
Tags
Crime, Space, Russia, Corruption, Finance
"At first I didn't believe the inspectors," Golikova said, Interfax reported.

The Audit Chamber has observed a sharp rise in violations at Roscosmos since last year, she said. "It was an absolute surprise for me. I conducted a budget inspection last year, and now in 2014, the number of violations has grown sharply."

Earlier, Russia's Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin blamed corruption in the space industry for the recent high accident rate of Russian spacecraft. Speaking in the State Duma on Tuesday, he said Roscosmos' partner, the state company producing Proton rockets, is facing eight criminal cases.

www.rt.com...

In 2012, Algeria nullified a contract for 34 MiG-29s, and returned all the aircraft had been delivered, because of poor quality in the ones that they had received. According to Algeria they were assembled using spare parts. A criminal case was opened afterwards.

MOSCOW, September 18 (RIA Novosti) - Criminal charges have been laid against the top management of a company accused of providing low-quality equipment for MiG-29 fighters later rejected by Algeria, Russia's business daily Kommersant said on Friday.
Musail Ismailov, chief of the Aviaremsnab company, and his deputy Alexander Kutumov are currently serving jail terms for similar offences. They were convicted for fraud in May after investigators determined the company used forged certificates and tags on old aviation equipment and sold it as new to the MiG company.
Under the $14.3 million contract, Aviaremsnab was to supply MiG with new spare parts and equipment. The company received $1.7 million in advance payments for components made in 2005-2006, but received products manufactured between 1982 and 1996, with forged certificates.
Some of the parts were to be shipped to the Polish air force, and others were to be used in the 24 MiG fighters that Algeria later refused to accept due to their "inferior quality."
The fraud, however, had been uncovered before the components were installed.

en.rian.ru...

You can find examples of this happening in the west too, obviously, but the levels that I've heard of it happening in Russia, and in other countries in the area, is higher than anywhere else I've heard of. Russia is doing wonders to get it under control, but it's going to take a long time for any western company to trust their civil aircraft industry enough to risk buying aircraft in any sort of numbers. Why should they risk it when there are so many companies who are already known and proven that are out there?

a reply to: Velatropa24

No one has said that everything Russia does is corrupt, only that corruption levels are higher there than other places. Russia makes some great equipment, but until they can overcome the reputation they have, and prove that any aircraft they're building can compete with Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, and the others that have proven reputations, they're not going to sell many aircraft to western companies. And until they can do that, they're not going to be a powerhouse in the industry outside of the Russian sphere of influence.

originally posted by: Velatropa24
Russian b
For example US is buying Russian rocket engines, because they are efficient, powerful, cheap and reliable.

I don't want to labour the point, but companies don't take risks.

If Russia wants to develop complex indigenous industries with real customers, (as opposed to government customers for arms sales), then they have a lot of work to do. Airliners are complex and costly and buyers of airliners want to stay in business. Russian business practices do not inspire confidence.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Velatropa24
I am dosappointed that you people turned a positive event into a thread of negativity.

The negative is that for Russia to actually produce anything aimed at commercial customers, it needs to sort out how to conduct business with the West and others.

Buying commercial airliners is massively expensive with long return on investment. Russia has not demonstrated that it is able to work with customers without political interference, corruption and other complications.

It's easier and less risky to buy from anyone but Russia.

Yes. If I were an airline, I'd rather buy a Chinese aircraft than a Russian one. Because, in the end, the Chinese, corporation and government, are in it for the business, and that means that we could negotiate with them. They would be tough and crafty, but in the end, it's a business deal.

Still, when Canadian made aircraft are the scrappy up and comers, why even bother with Russia?

a reply to: mbkennel

And that's the problem. The market is saturated at this point, with proven manufacturers that have aircraft flying, and have been flying for years.

Bombardier makes great business jets, has the CRJ series of aircraft that have been popular for years in the regional market, as well as the Dash 8 turboprop. In 2011 they announced a joint venture with Comac in China to build the ARJ21 and C919, as well as the CRJ and CSeries, in an attempt to break the Airbus/Boeing duopoly. The ARJ21 ended up running well behind schedule, and is just about to enter service, eight years after the first flight. The C919 is at least three years behind schedule and probably won't see deliveries until closer to 2020. In 2015, Bombardier had a net order book of 27 aircraft, counting business jets and commercial aircraft. The CSeries is the quietest commercial aircraft built to date, and the people that have flown on it rave about it. It's about to enter service, and is well short of the break even point. It's only had a couple of significant orders.

You can make a great aircraft, and it can be the most advanced aircraft out there, and the airlines will ignore it in favor of proven technology. There are only a few airlines willing to take a risk on new aircraft, and when they do, it's generally in orders of less than 150 aircraft to begin with.