New water molecule state discovered

Apparently a new state of water has been found that behaves not like a solid, liquid or a gas. What this means? I do not know because, although I read science a lot, the article's topic is a bit beyond what I normally can understand. Hopefully a discussion can start and there are some simplified posts among the technical posts explaining it's ramifications?

gizmodo.com...

The next phase of the matrix is beginning to take affect. X-men will be a real thing soon enough, we're gonna need them to fight the Godzilla monsters being created by Fukushima!

a reply to: Gyo01
Here is some more Info from the article and the study to help the discussion
Aparantly they call it Quantum Tunneling of Water.

From the OP's article

“At low temperatures, this tunneling water exhibits quantum motion through the separating potential walls, which is forbidden in the classical world. This means that the oxygen and hydrogen atoms of the water molecule are ‘delocalized’ and therefore simultaneously present in all six symmetrically equivalent positions in the channel at the same time. It’s one of those phenomena that only occur in quantum mechanics and has no parallel in our everyday experience.”

From the research Quantum Tunneling of Water in Beryl: A New State of the Water Molecule-Abstract

Using neutron scattering and ab initio simulations, we document the discovery of a new “quantum tunneling state” of the water molecule confined in 5 Å channels in the mineral beryl, characterized by extended proton and electron delocalization. We observed a number of peaks in the inelastic neutron scattering spectra that were uniquely assigned to water quantum tunneling. In addition, the water proton momentum distribution was measured with deep inelastic neutron scattering, which directly revealed coherent delocalization of the protons in the ground state.

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From the research Quantum Tunneling of Water in Beryl: A New State of the Water Molecule-Abstract

Using neutron scattering and ab initio simulations, we document the discovery of a new “quantum tunneling state” of the water molecule confined in 5 Å channels in the mineral beryl, characterized by extended proton and electron delocalization. We observed a number of peaks in the inelastic neutron scattering spectra that were uniquely assigned to water quantum tunneling. In addition, the water proton momentum distribution was measured with deep inelastic neutron scattering, which directly revealed coherent delocalization of the protons in the ground state.

I feel a little delocalized myself after puzzling through that last....

a reply to: Gyo01

In science class if i recall, well, a modern version in a more modernized state.. There are five "states" if i recall it right..
Its just the American culture and school system thats left behind.. I have faith in you that someday you will achieve a status to join the "galactic scientific community" naaah just kidding

a reply to: bandersnatch

Please no, no quantum physics.. It doesnt work in reality..

How does this effect the weather on WOW or Second Life?

The simple(r) description:

Ok. There's a mineral called beryl. Depending on contaminants in beryl, you might be more familiar with the green sort, which is emerald, but the aquamarine sort is a gem also called beryl. There are pink and colorless beryl gems as well. And it's a source for beryllium, which it's partly composed of.

The only reason that matters is, due to the mechanical structure of how beryl forms, it has long hexagonal channels in which are 5 Angstroms across from flat to flat. It's likely that during the formation of the beryl, that you can get water molecules trapped in these channels. A water molecule is about 1 Angstrom across.

Now, a water molecule has two hydrogens and an oxygen. You might envision the hydrogens being 180 degrees apart so that the water molecule looks sort of like a TIE fighter, but that's not how it works. The other free electrons around the oxygen sort of squish the two hydrogens together on one side, so that they form an angle of about 105 degrees, with the oxygen in the apex of the angle.

Inside the channel inside the beryl, there are 'points' every 60 degrees, since it's a hexagon. So if you skip a point between, you fit the water in there so that it's got a hydrogen stuck into one point, skip one at 60 degrees, and a hydrogen stuck into the next point. It's not a precise fit because you're cramming a 105 degree angled structure into a "socket" with 60 degree increments. But because the water is a good bit smaller than the channel, it does its best to fit, and since it's as far away from the beryl at that angle as it can be, it's what we call a "minimum energy" state. The water can rotate and still not touch the walls, so it does that at times, the hotter it is the more likely that is to happen. But it "likes" to be in that state where it's got a hydrogen in one point, skip one, and a hydrogen in the next, even though it's not an exact fit.

Now, when it's very very cold, and we're talking something like 5 K above absolute zero, there's not a lot of heat energy to make that water spin inside the channel, and so it's happy to stay in whatever position it's in, with the hydrogens stuck into the hexagonal points of the channel.

But something else happens that becomes observable at that temperature. And that's a nifty quantum phenomenon called "tunneling". If the system was "warmer", and that's sort of relative because we're talking maybe 50K above absolute zero, you can't see the tunneling for the thermally induced rotation. But once you get that sucker cold enough, the rotation stops. And with that out of the way for the most part (it still does rotate occasionally), you can observe the tunneling that's going on.

By classic physics, that molecule of water should be "stuck" in the channel motionless at that sort of temperature. But there are six positions that the water COULD be turned in. And since you're dealing with one single molecule of water, a very pretty demonstration of quantum physics rears its little unicorn head...the water CAN be in any of six positions, so through the quantum miracle of tunneling, it's actually IS in all six orientations at the same time. The two hydrogens stuck to the oxygen "blur" into all positions they're allowed to occupy at that energy level. In order to accommodate that, the spare electrons on the oxygen that are forcing the hydrogens not to look like a TIE fighter "blur" to be in all the positions that THEY can occupy. And so, instead of looking like an oxygen with two hydrogens 104.5 degrees apart, what you get is a water molecule with a sort of lumpy ring of hydrogens and a lumpy ring of electron clouds.

It's the result of
1) you're dealing with a single molecule
2) it is physically constrained by the beryl to assume a very limited number of physical states
3) it's very near absolute zero so you get rid of most of the phonon-induced rotation

And the result is, you have a water molecule thing that can only exist in that set of conditions, and since it no longer has the hydrogens poking off to one side and the electrons poking off to the other, as they would be if it were floating around, you have a water molecule thing with no electric dipole. It's non-polar water. That is very odd, and it's why Gizmodo probably said it wasn't a liquid etc, although in real terms the title is sort of nonsense. But it was catchy, and thus they phrased it that way.

originally posted by: PanPiper
a reply to: bandersnatch

Please no, no quantum physics.. It doesnt work in reality..

It's demonstrated in the computer you're using now. And, I might add, by this experiment.

hrmmm...

So does this mean they can stuff more water in a container with tiny tubes. than they could in a regular container of the same size?

Did they just invent a Water Tardis?

a reply to: Bedlam

And in my brain, and the words im typing.. Must be some masonry magic..no quantum physics..

originally posted by: grey580
hrmmm...

So does this mean they can stuff more water in a container with tiny tubes. than they could in a regular container of the same size?

Did they just invent a Water Tardis?

Nah, just that it won't interact with itself, much, since it's non-polar in that state.

originally posted by: Bedlam
The simple(r) description:...

Great explanation.

I agree that the title of the article is very misleading.

a reply to: Bedlam


When you say the hydrogen atoms and the electrons exist in all positions, do you mean to say they are moving so fast (faster than we can detect) that it only appears they are in all positions? Or are you saying that they actually multiplied themselves to exist in all positions, and the water molecule now has more mass? Something from nothing...

originally posted by: WeAre0ne
a reply to: Bedlam


When you say the hydrogen atoms and the electrons exist in all positions, do you mean to say they are moving so fast (faster than we can detect) that it only appears they are in all positions? Or are you saying that they actually multiplied themselves to exist in all positions, and the water molecule now has more mass? Something from nothing...

It's still the same number of atoms in the molecule, it's just that WHERE they are becomes less determinate. Same with the electrons on the oxygen.

Think of them as being in six positions at the same time, but only 1/6 there in any one place.

a reply to: Bedlam

So, then they are moving so fast they only appear to exist in those places.

a reply to: Bedlam

That was a great explaination .

Wow! Now another reason to charge more for emeralds(beryl). In order to see quantum mechanics in action.

originally posted by: WeAre0ne
a reply to: Bedlam

So, then they are moving so fast they only appear to exist in those places.

No, rotation and tunneling are two very measurably different phenomena. They actually are in all positions at once, thus the non-polar behavior.

Water rotates like mad in your glass, but it's not the same as this. It's a type of quantum indeterminacy, and it's why the paper is on quantum tunneling instead of "yet again, more QM rotation".

eta: What's sort of cool about this is that you can observe entire atoms (the hydrogens) tunneling instead of just the electrons. Generally, the more complex the system, the less quantum behavior of this sort you get. So it's not unusual with electrons, but hydrogen atoms is probably pushing it. It would be interesting to see if you upped the complexity and stuffed some D2O or T2O in there if you'd get the same behavior.

a reply to: Bedlam

Well because of quantum weirdness couldn't the water atoms be hanging out in each other?

So you could shove in more water than was normal?