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originally posted by: mouthfullofkefirgrains
a reply to: Krazysh0t
I never wanted to to be true. My truth-seeking simply led me there.
I had no problem with death and whenever I have faced it (almost drowning in hurricane swell, health crisis from 911 dust toxicity, etc) I never thought to pray to God and was not really sure there was one.
BUT as an artist, I wanted to get some sense of the truth of this reality, because art ideally expresses TRUTH.
As I was healing myself from health crisis I realized that life is not some dystopian materialist program I had been led to believe it was by the media and some of the best education money can buy…
I was able to heal myself from issues medical science/MEDIA claimed were incurable…
once you cross the rubicon of these kinds of realizations, then you keep digging and cross-referencing and seeking… first to see how healthy I could get, how high a vibe I could achieve… invariably you hit upon the topic of Jesus Christ and other religions… you sort through them and become increasingly surprised by the scholarship, historicity, science, etc on the Bible… how profound it is, how true Christ is, especially when compared to all the other "religions"--I'm with Bob Dylan: Jesus Christ is not a religion, but a TRUTH.
originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Not really. To be a "Muslim" is literally to be a person who chooses to worship and submit to God. It's kind of hard to be a Muslim and then reject the concept of an omniscient Creator. Our idea of God is basically a powerful extradimensional inventor. The "Big Bang" would simply describe what happened after He decided to "start" this Universe. I think that's a lot more plausible than a humanoid being that has human avatars and humanoid half-"god" sons that can die.
Thanks. Though you have to realize that a lot of those religious historical family lines exist to this day. The "Hashemites", for example, are one branch of the Prophet Muhammad's clan (they share a common ancestor & the most notable Hashemites are Middle East royalty). And most of the Prophets like John the Baptist have shrines to this day. And Mecca has mosques that were built by the Prophet Muhammad and the early companions (though the Sauds have been demolishing them recently, grrr...).
So it's understandable that the historical accounts may have more of an effect on some Muslims. But I'm a Muslim in the original sense of the word, meaning I focus on my personal connection with God and proving myself to Him. Everything else is secondary.
That's kind of what I'm saying about the Qur'an. If a Muslim only reads the Qur'an, which we believe to be the literal teachings of God, you'll see most of the stories for the lessons in them instead. It's literally not like the Old Testament/TaNaKh, which is written as a historical account in chronological order.
One of the longer Surahs/Revelations may have a greeting for a few lines, a few lines of warnings, a few lines of guidance, reminders of a historical person or event, more lines of guidance, then followed by rules or food for thought. The historical accounts are often brought up mid-verse (note: Though I don't mean to diminish the people in the accounts. I just want to remind you that Islam is about following the God who sent the Prophets, which is why the Qur'an focuses more on that than the specific histories).
True, but here's where I think you're forgetting something big. Every single religious person, regardless of their faith, has had personal experiences that attributed to their beliefs. You seem to be looking at religious doctrines and personal experiences as isolated situations, when they actually go hand in hand.
I think you took that the opposite of how I meant it. I meant that it's not a coincidence that the majority of humans from every demographic believe in something greater than what we can sense. It's not a bandwagon effect if nearly everybody has an internal, instinctive longing to understand this "greater power" they sense. That would be like saying that since nearly all people instinctively long for physical contact, it must be a bandwagon effect.
People clearly don't agree on what that "greater power" may be, hence all of the various religions, cults, ancient alien theories, theories of interdimensional beings, and the such. But I don't think you can honestly deny that most people instinctively believe there is something greater out there.
(For the record, I like these kinds of conversations. Way better than some of the other "controversial' threads here.)
originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Against possibly better judgment . . . I'll comment . . . mostly because it is such a high priority philosophically, epistomologically, etc.
1. Not only The Bible . . . but "merely" THE RESURRECTION. IF such were not true, then NOTHING MAKES ANY DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER. One may as well shoot another as feed them.
2. The propagandized-from-hell notion that there is no objective right or wrong is sheer idiocy. It's logically thoroughly inconsistent rationally and inconsistent with reality as observed.
3. The Bible presents the most testable, coherent etc. body of truth more covering the whole of reality than ever assembled.
BTW, I'm a Biblical literalist. I believe God said what He meant and meant what He said. And, I've found it to be literally true in my life to the degree I have treated it as so.
Maybe if those kids(ages 12-20 often considered children during those days)
And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
and he was swallowed by a great fish, Jesus qualified it as a whale, Freakier things have happened.
Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Reread it it implies he died and he was swallowed by a great fish
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
10 And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Yeah that's cool. If you've found ways to reconcile your faith with modern religion. I used to play the god of the gaps game when I was a Christian. It's just that it all sounds reasonable at face value, but when you start digging into how the science works and the accounts in the book, they don't align properly. So you have to start taking liberties with the text. Thus things aren't properly defined and you lose the evidential aspect of the books.
Ok. That makes sense, but what about advise from outside the Qur'an? At this time we know that reasoning for rules put on Muslims and Jews to not eat pork has to do with the animals being easily ridden with harmful diseases. Especially in the desert climates they were living in. This has been established both historically and scientifically. So now that we have identified the ways to go about eating pork without it harming us, Muslims and Jews both don't eat the animal because it is deemed "unclean" in their books. This is contradictory advise between science and faith, and something that I am getting at.
172. O ye who believe! Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you, and render thanks to Allah if it is (indeed) He Whom ye worship.
173. He hath forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swineflesh, and that which hath been immolated to (the name of) any other than Allah. But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Personal experiences are great, and I'm not denying they are happening, but how do we know what they are to assign to the particular faith. Many times people have the faith first, or they live in a society that heavily favors a particular faith. Then the personal experience occurs, and the person imposes the society's dominant faith's characteristics to the experience. Yet how does this man KNOW it is a Christian experience while living in a Christian dominant nation. How does this woman KNOW it is a hindu experience while living in India?
The person could even be a born again of whatever faith, and the pattern still holds true. Atheists in America are more likely to have "Christian" personal experiences. Atheists in the Middle East will have "Muslim" personal experiences. It's all a matter of perception, and no one knows who is right. Only that these experiences are happening.
I don't have it. I have a residual feeling from people telling me it is true. To me, it feels like social programming. If the concept of God didn't exist, no one would feel like there is more to things after death.
not meaning to be rude but this thread is just a mess and makes no sense whatsoever while this single post has got to be the most nonsensical offensive pile of rubbish ive seen in six years of ATS. You are both talking about a group of people who are quite small in number I believe, fundanmmentalists slash literalists??? Either that or youre addressing the whole of Christendom and forcing a characteristic upon the second largest grouping of people in the world by cultural/anthropological means. Or are Christians THE largest in number I forget. Either way this is the same as if I made a thread called Why Avatar and asked, "American people, Avatar is an American's favorite movie. That is easily ascertained as it grossed 2.2 billion dollars and received rave reviews. Why is Avatar your favorite? Why is it that just because youre American you cant even consider another title as best film? Why do you want to live a life like they live in Avatar and why are you so jealous you cant but are stuck as a human on earth?" Then this post is like, "Americans favorite color is blue. All Americans want to have blue skin and developed a penis like envy over the long three foot girthy tails the things in Avatar go around sticking in everything. And finally, everyone knows that Avatar is beyond a doubt the biggest treasure in cinema." Im sitting here and my interest is drawn when I see Americans addressed since im half American at least. And the person who asked all the questions did in a way that cornered me into just one or two possible answers none of which even come close to applying. And then not just the op but other members jump in and answer for them using their voice he/she decided was his place to im guessing because nobody is really answering the questions at hand cuz they are just horrible questions that rarely have an answer. Im sitting here basically thinking well thats I but ive never even seen...oh wait you mean THAT POS with the blue backwards penised freaks that i fell asleep twice watching staying only because I thought Sigourny Weaver could do no wrong and eventually walked out of an hour before they saved Fern Gully or whatever the crap was going on?! Not only do the questions not apply to me AT ALL, they dont even make enough sense to tweak and answer my way. Why does it need to be true what does that mean and who ever said it needed to!? I think any Christian can answer if he she believes in the bible or not and if so to what extent anyhow deep is the literal text how deep goes the allegory or is it literal or is it all symbolic. But i think only an atheist...a certain type of atheist we all know ugh...has questions lie that because any nobody but that type of atheist gives a damn about the need for a stranger to.....I dunno I still cant make two licks of what youre asking. Answer me this, we all know Harry Potter is a work of fiction, thats not what I want to discuss. Brits. Explain to me WHY do you feel Harry Potter NEEEEDS to be fiction. Is it possible you dont believe in Harry simply because J K Rowling is a living breathing British woman?
originally posted by: Discotech
a reply to: Krazysh0t
I don't think any of them believe it's a lie, they completely believe it's the truth and fact.
I think it's more a case of not looking deeply into their belief to avoid any feelings of being uncomfortable with it, they just accept it without question because to them, it's more comfortable for them to do so that way.
A crutch to avoid the unpleasant reality of life maybe, but definitely not a lie, not in their minds anyway