Jesus said; Your faith has saved you

a reply to: intrptr

My sister is in a legalist church too, but I have schooled her so well she knows how to tell them no if they get in her business.

But, besides being somewhat robots and willing puppets, they are nice and only a quarter of thrm roughly are arrogant beyond reproach.

It's the newbies fresh off initiation that are the holier than thou "have you been saved?" types that don't understand what Baptism was really designed for. It's become an initiation and not about the Holy Spirit.

a reply to: Heresiarch

But, besides being somewhat robots and willing puppets, they are nice and only a quarter of them roughly are arrogant beyond reproach.

Until you threaten their money, stuff or goals. Then watch them react.

Or like you said, they are servile, long suffering or whatever they call it.

The ones that appear nicely dressed and well mannered, you just take away their material possessions and watch the beast come out.

As long as everything is going their way, they are nice, thoughtful, helpful, sort of. You can mow their lawn for a few bucks or wash their car. They'll allow that. As far as actually helping others in need, they 'donate' some pittance , also a feel good for them. they're 'helping'.

The other kind are worse, imo. They are busy bodies, do gooders, minding others business, considering that helping by interfering in others lives so as to 'fix them'.

I was really enjoying this thread until it went so far off topic that it might as well be a different thread. Look people, myself and many others enjoy and respect Disraeli's view of scripture. Please allow us some space for our views and take your off topic posts to another thread, please?

Thank you,

STM

originally posted by: Heresiarch
a reply to: intrptr


I am banned from church because I told the pastor he was a charlatan because he wouldn't baptize me. I hadn't finished their brainwashing program yet. They hired a cop for a month just in case I showed up, it was hilarious.

That's not funny. I don't know what kind of church you're referring to, but why would a Bible believing pastor baptize you? You started a whole thread on why half of the Bible must be false because it was written by Paul. No one in the Christian faith will take you seriously with that kind of belief. He shouldn't have baptized you.

originally posted by: Heresiarch
a reply to: intrptr

If you really want to see their inner beast find a controversial subject and prove them wrong about it.

They will go into full on denial mode and ignore proof without logical consideration if it conflicts with what they believe.

They will rudely tell you you aren't worth talking to or something like that.

I am banned from church because I told the pastor he was a charlatan because he wouldn't baptize me. I hadn't finished their brainwashing program yet. They hired a cop for a month just in case I showed up, it was hilarious.

Lol, that was funny. You aren't going to change the gate keepers you know, they are there to keep people hooked into the dogma. Its not worth it to try and fight them or their minions. Leave them to their devices, sleep better.

I drive my mom to her church services every weekend, sit outside in the car and read a book. I fully support their right to meet and carry on with whatever club activities they want to pursue…

(chuckle)

Jesus said; Your faith has saved you

....that is the topic.
The topic has gotten sidetracked....so a reminder here: Post to the topic or face post removals or more....You are responsible for your own posts....if you have another topic....don't derail, start your own topic/thread.


Go After the Ball, Not the Player!


and, as always:

Do NOT reply to this post!!

Perhaps this paragraph is the key to getting the thread back on track;

“Your faith”;
Her assurance that her sins had been forgiven would have come from the teaching of Jesus (“Repent and believe in the gospel”).
Therefore it would have rested upon her faith in the authority of Jesus to speak as the emissary of God.
That is how her faith saved her.

“Has saved you”;
Her sin and her consciousness of sin, between them, had been an obstacle in her relationship with God.
The forgiveness of her sin had removed that obstacle.
That was how her faith had saved her.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Okay, but I have a question. After repenting and knowing I'm forgiven I still have a strong feeling to make things right. For example: I let my yard guy have it for just disappearing for a month and not taking calls. He took a vacation he said when he finally showed up. I told him off for not letting me know. He looked like a whupped puppy by the end of my say.

I totally repented for losing my temper and now I feel I should apologize and maybe do something nice for him. Is that how it works?

STM

a reply to: seentoomuch
On the personal issue, apologising for being over-aggressive seems like the right instinct. If you're telling yourself that you need to do it, then you probably do. You can explain that it came out of your sense of frustration, and the result could be that the two of you understand each other better in the future. (It isn't clear to me whether your "yard guy" is your own employee, or just a freelance who does work for you and other people. In the latter case, your reaction does seem over the top.)

The relationship with God doesn't work in quite the same way, because he understands us already.
He's not requiring us to "make up for" what happened in the past.
But a resolve to do things his way in the future would be much more to the point. That is repentance, the "turning again" or turning back to God.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Thanks, I wasn't sure how it is applied in our daily life when we repent something. Great answer.

STM

a reply to: seentoomuch

I agree with Disraeli:

It is right to apologize to the yard guy, and as well to let him know that 'you' forgive 'him', but...

...at the same time, it is right that you explain to him (in a kind way) why his actions were wrong, because being forgiving of other's transgressions doesn't mean being a doormat and letting them continue doing wrong to you..

...as well, it would be a kindness to explain his 'wrong' to him for his own sake - so he will understand the risk of losing customers/income by behaving so unprofessionally.

a reply to: lostgirl

Yes, I agree, I'll apologize to him and then make it clear in a very nice way how it made me feel and for him to let me know if he's not able to do the lawn for me.

But most importantly I'll do this, which is wonderfully put:

originally posted by: DISRAELI
But a resolve to do things his way in the future would be much more to the point. That is repentance, the "turning again" or turning back to God.

STM

I am glad to see this thread back on topic.

Disraeli, thank you for this thread. You have given me yet more to think about, or re-think.

In your OP, you said:

Her tears wet his feet, she wiped them with her hair, and then she anointed them with the ointment.
(I assume that the anointing was the intended act. Having to wipe them first was the accidental effect of the weeping.)

I feel that it was no accident. Well at least, not entirely.

We all understand the symbolism of foot-washing. Just as in John 14:4, where Jesus washed the feet of his disciples, it is partly an act of humility. In another way, it also showed that we are all basically equal: everyone's feet get dirty!

But this woman shed tears upon Jesus' feet, tears that came from her deepest being. And in a way, they were her gift to him. They were more precious than water drawn from a well. And to then wipe his feet with her hair? Again, it showed humility. And her love. She was letting everyone know that nothing about herself or her appearance mattered -- including her long hair. All that mattered was offering this service to him.

Using the ointment had its own symbolism, yes. But I think those tears were just as precious as the scented oil. Or even more so.

To me, what Jesus says in the verses implies that he did not see her tears wetting his feet as an accident. Or to put it another way, he made no attempt to move away so her tears would not wet his feet. He allowed them to fall there and he understood her offering.

a reply to: JustMike
I think we can compromise.
I'm sure there's a profound truth in what you are saying, as regards her state of mind at the time it was happening.
That would still allow "accidental" in the more limited sense of "not premeditated".
Thank you for those thoughts.

a reply to: DISRAELI

As usual a very good thread DISRAELI... though i have a question if you will...

In your examples these people's "faith" saved them... Yes, Faith that the "son of God" can heal would make sense

Yet where do you find any "sin debt" mentioned in the gospels?

And where do you find the idea that "all of your sins are covered" with said faith... or that they are paid for, or even need to be paid for in any case?

originally posted by: Akragon
Yet where do you find any "sin debt" mentioned in the gospels?

The idea that the forgiveness of sin is comparable with the cancelling of debt is found in the very story that the opening post is examining (and also in the story of the "unforgiving servant"). At the very least, he means that there is the same sense of release.
That is not the same thing as saying that sin IS a debt. I don't make that statement in the OP, and so I don't have to justify it.
I have my own ways of describing sin, which I have used in other threads.

And where do you find the idea that "all of your sins are covered" with said faith... or that they are paid for, or even need to be paid for in any case?

And where do you find those ideas in the opening post? You are taking other people's phraseology and asking me to justify it. That's not a job I intend to do in this thread.

Let me repeat how the opening post covers the connection between faith and sin;

“Your faith”;
Her assurance that her sins had been forgiven would have come from the teaching of Jesus (“Repent and believe in the gospel”).
Therefore it would have rested upon her faith in the authority of Jesus to speak as the emissary of God.
That is how her faith saved her.

“Has saved you”;
Her sin and her consciousness of sin, between them, had been an obstacle in her relationship with God.
The forgiveness of her sin had removed that obstacle.
That was how her faith had saved her.

edit on 2-4-2016 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

a reply to: DISRAELI

So that is the gospel message of the New Testament, summed up in a single story.
By our faith in Christ, as coming from God, we are saved from our sin, through the knowledge that our sin has been forgiven, and we may thereby enter into a new and unhindered relationship with our God.

By your last statement i get the feeling that you're attempting to justify "faith alone" in your thread...

Though in one of your replies you also distinctly stated that "faith is the first step in the process"

Perhaps this wasn't your motive though... even the slightest hint of Mixing Paulian theology with the gospels tends to irk me somewhat

originally posted by: Akragon
Though in one of your replies you also distinctly stated that "faith is the first step in the process"

I have also said the same thing in connection with the teaching of Paul and the teaching of James.
More than once in the Galatians series discussions, I claimed the teaching of the entire New Testament as "Faith and obedience are both needed, but faith comes first in order of time".

If you are going to be irked with "Your faith has saved you", you must be irked with Jesus for saying it.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Akragon
Though in one of your replies you also distinctly stated that "faith is the first step in the process"

I have also said the same thing in connection with the teaching of Paul and the teaching of James.
More than once in the Galatians series discussions, I claimed the teaching of the entire New Testament as "Faith and obedience are both needed, but faith comes first in order of time".

If you are going to be irked with "Your faith has saved you", you must be irked with Jesus for saying it.

Not at all...

He most definately says "your faith has saved you" which i have no problem with... What he does not say is "your faith has covered all of your sins"

Unlike Paul, Jesus does not issue "the golden ticket"... and white wash everything else he taught