Lets settle this! Would the UK have survived WW2 without the USA.

a reply to: DJW001

Hitler got mad when he heard of a bomb hitting buckingham palace, he did not want it damaged because he intended to make it his london residence, not just the seat of Edward whom they were going to reinstall on the British throne and there was apparently also some behind the scenes talk's between members of the British aristocracy and upper class whom had fascist sympathy's and Hitler fascist party via Rudolf Hess, in fact it was because they were not able to give him safe passage which was promised and also pulled out of the meeting they were going to have with him that Hess was captured in scotland after being shot down.

A very large number of our elite actually sympathized with the Nazi party's goal's, in fact most of the Nazi Ideology from racial purity, aryan superiority, concentration camp's and even eugenics had been born in England in the Victorian era, conservative's of the day along with work housed to work the poor to death also mulled over the idea of sterilizing the poor and even culling them.

In the 1930's there had been growing tension's between the US and Britain whom distrusted one another, Many in the US wanted the British Empire gone as they feared it and it was a stumbling block to there own international ambition's and indeed though not well known it was a stipulation of the lend lease that we would disband our Empire but when we did the Americans in fact did not take over as they may have initially planned to do though they have since through corporate manipulation etc.

Those growing tension's in the 30's had Canada fearing that the US would try to Annex them by force, they had there own armed forces prepared to hold the US as long as they could and had also planned counter attack's deep into the United State's, Hitler meanwhile was aware of this and in the mid 30's he believed that these tension's were indeed going to ignite a conflict, he had even planned to back up the British and join as an ally of the British Empire in this war against the growing power of the US which he also looked at with baleful eye's.

So he did indeed think of the British as an Aryan people, Saxon's, Danes and Norwegians - if he had modern genetic data though he would have seen us as a celtic people and realised that the Germans by his time period were even more mixed than we are?.

Meanwhile the British admiralty had seen the size of the US growing armed forces, though the US ship's of this period were inferior with wooden decked aircraft carriers etc they realized the best the Grand fleet could achieve was a stalemate in the Atlantic, holding the US at bay but not drive them back and so the British government had drawn up contingency plan's to abandon our Canadian colony to it's fate, a decision and recommendation of which the Canadian's were never appraised.

Then came a different less Anglo Phobic president and thing's warmed up between us though now the US public did not want to get involved in foreign wars and it was we whom were nearly left to our fate, we told the US about information we had that the Japanese may be planning an attack on pearl harbor over six month's prior to the actual attack as we were monitoring the Jap's due to there close ties to Germany and feared there aggression while the bulk of our forces were tied up in europe but the US disregarded our communique on that subject which actually for us worked out for the best as the actual attack was what it needed to jolt US public opinion and bring them into the war, it can be seen as the biggest miscalculation of the Axis powers, they thought it woud tie up the US and keep them out of Europe but it instead brought them into the war on both front's.

Hitler was indeed an idiot but a nasty evil manipulator of people as well, his generals though were not, had rommel for instance had the supply's he demanded for his north africa campaign or even half of them we would have lost in north africa.

The German soldiers were the best in the world (motivated and trained to like the edge of a knife) though the jap's get it for fanaticism and though there equipment was inferior they were damn good soldiers then the Canadians and English (being professional - at the start of the war - Professional soldiers and not conscripts and building on that qualitative core and experience with the crown for best soldier eventually going to the British Commando's) and then there were the US soldier though many were every bit as good (so this is based on an overall view of there armed forces) but what they lacked in discipline they more than made up for in gung ho attitude, gut's, better weapons and equipment and sheer numbers, mostly they were farm boy's and city boy's whom had only joined like our own lads to do there duty for there country so it is not just Teddy's US government that we owe thank's to but the US people.

The Nazi's are and will always be filth, sadly they are now still with us even here in Britain in teh like's of the conservative party and the less literate low intellectual value of the BNP.

Here you go, forgive me the first web page google listed as Daily Mail,
Still it is a good article.
www.dailymail.co.uk...
gizmodo.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: DJW001

That actually a pretty cool flag

Point proven.

If the UK had gone down that route everyone would have lost.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
then there were the US soldier though many were every bit as good (so this is based on an overall view of there armed forces) but what they lacked in discipline they more than made up for in gung ho attitude, gut's

That’s pretty stereotyping.
Sorry

But US discipline was just as good as UK.

Only problem they had was inexperiance. A problem they overcame by mid 1943.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
, better weapons and equipment

Not true again.

At the start of the war US equipment woeful. Lot of it outdated and the new bits untested.

Again by 1943/1944 that had changed but a lot of it was still inferior. It advantage was it was mass producible.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
and sheer numbers, mostly they were farm boy's and city boy's whom had only joined like our own lads to do there duty for there country so it is not just Teddy's US government that we owe thank's to but the US people.

Well if we have to thank them then they ought to thank us too.

We though together as allies and both deserve EQUAL credit.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
The Nazi's are and will always be filth, sadly they are now still with us even here in Britain in teh like's of the conservative party and the less literate low intellectual value of the BNP.

So anyone with a diffrent polical opinion is a NAZI?

a reply to: LABTECH767

Spot on! I forget about Edward. It would have been Heil Hitler and King Edward!

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: DJW001

That actually a pretty cool flag

Point proven.

If the UK had gone down that route everyone would have lost.

That depends on who you mean by "everyone" and what you mean by "lost."

a reply to: DJW001

If the UK had allied with the Reich then Hitler would have slaughtered Russia before turning on the USA.

USA against Germany, Japan and the UK?

No chance.

Would have been left with a world comprising the Japanese Empire, Third Reich and the British Empire, plus Italy and Spain if Britain and Germany didnt turn on them and divide them up between them.


So everyone losses.

Text

a reply to: crazyewok


I find your comment on lend-lease re NOT out of the goodness of the U.S. 'heart'. A little over the top. If it was merely a 'business' deal, the U.S. would have made similar arrangements with Germany. A ridiculous proposition on your part.

The U.S. was in an isolationist mode thanks to WWI and it was the only way to assist without political backlash from the population.

The empire needed those ships and the U.S. supplied them. FACT. Leave your marginalizing of the U.S.-as usual- out of this, thank you very much.

a reply to: crazyewok

History shows that America played a crucial part-Normandy and Midway are the obvious examples.

Whether you agree or not the Nazi war machine was brilliant and second to none-It took combined forces to stop the Blitzkriegs, the luftwaffe and so forth-we can't play sliding doors as the war is long over.

However my Great grand uncle fought for the allies in WWI and his life was saved by a German-Not everyone wanted to kill each other so when it comes to who saved who's rump remember that sometimes compassion prevails.

a reply to: nwtrucker

We paid for those ships and those supplys.

Im not going to get on my hands and needs and thank you any more than I will do so for the cashier at the suppermarket who sold me the steak im eating.

They were fully paid for. The USA got more than enough back from them.

And the ships were not vital anyway. If we didnt get them we would have just had to pull some of the fleet back from the pacfic.

The material and food though was more valuble. But still it was not "free" we paid for it.

Both UK and USA profited from the exchange.


Make a thread thanking the Saudis for selling you the oil that allows you to drive your car and I will thank the USA for lend/lease.

a reply to: nwtrucker

From memory the US continued to trade with Nazi Germany and it's puppet states right up to Germany declared war on the US.

The only reason they didn't trade more was that they couldn't, as the Royal Navy enforced as much as possible a blockade on trade.

There was a large number of Anglophiles in the US government who to a large degree made sure that UK received preferential treatment , however there was also a strong element who supported complete neutrality or favoured the Nazis.

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: crazyewok

History shows that America played a crucial part-Normandy and Midway are the obvious examples.

America played a JOINT part in Normandy.

The UK provided just as much men and equipment and took 2 beaches of there own.

The candians took 1 beach too.

D-Day was not a American effort but a Allied one.

a reply to: crazyewok

Probably not, just like Russia may not have survived without the United Kingdoms winter convoys. But one thing is for sure once Hitler had established control over Europe he would have steamrolled right over the U.S and the rest of the American continent without much trouble and with the help of Japan which would also have also have established a new Empire rivaling in size the United Kingdoms.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: DJW001

If the UK had allied with the Reich then Hitler would have slaughtered Russia before turning on the USA.

USA against Germany, Japan and the UK?

No chance.

Would have been left with a world comprising the Japanese Empire, Third Reich and the British Empire, plus Italy and Spain if Britain and Germany didnt turn on them and divide them up between them.


So everyone losses.

Now your getting a tad creative. Here's a more pragmatic scenario. The U.S. has no interest in the 2,000 years of virtual non-stop European 'adventurism' having already been disaffected by WWI and signs a treaty with Germany-who is incapable then, with British assistance or not, of invading the North American continent. (That holds true to this day.)

Simply put, the U.S. gives/cedes Europe to the Germans who still have their hands full with Stalin.

As Trump has stated, end NATO. Fully on board with that. Should have ignored European insanity 100 years ago....

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: crazyewok

Probably not, just like Russia may not have survived without the United Kingdoms winter convoys. But one thing is for sure once Hitler had established control over Europe he would have steamrolled right over the U.S and the rest of the American continent without much trouble and with the help of Japan would also have also have established a new Empire rivaling in size the United Kingdoms.

Unless they could work out a way of making Panzers seaworthy I don't think the US was ever in too much danger of a German invasion.

Can I ask a really stupid question? I"m told we don't have time in this segment of the show but I'm gonna ask it anyway.

I did ask my Mom who is the only person I'm in contact with that might actually know and she was also stumped.

How did Britain get involved in WW2? Both of our memory banks are missing that. Was it Germany that started it with bombings because they were there and a enemy(as Germany didn't have a whole load of friends, especially in Europe as they were invading most of them) or was there some other reason?

Just, wow, how can I have forgotten this crap? Damn, I must be losing it because I totally cannot remember what the hell happened. Getting old sucks, apparently.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Oh i dont know about that, if the scenario i portrayed were to have played out America quite possibly would not have build up or rearmed there military. You do relies that Tanks fit in sea going vessels, how do you think both the U.K and U.S got them on to European shores?

Also the Nazis would quite possibly have developed atomic weapons before the U.S and nuked the a good few major city's before launching a full scale invasion.

Your not one of these people who really think America stepped in saved everyone else and could have won said conflict all on there own? It was a team effort by many nations hence the terminology Allied force.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: crazyewok

History shows that America played a crucial part-Normandy and Midway are the obvious examples.

America played a JOINT part in Normandy.

The UK provided just as much men and equipment and took 2 beaches of there own.

The candians took 1 beach too.

D-Day was not a American effort but a Allied one.

Lets get some real facts abbout D Day

The plan for Operation Overlord -- as D-Day was codenamed -- was largely that of Gen. Bernard Montgomery, the land force commander. The Royal Navy had overall responsibility for Operation Neptune, the naval plan. Of the 1,213 warships involved, 200 were American and 892 were British; of the 4,126 landing craft involved, 805 were American and 3,261 were British. Indeed, 31% of all U.S. supplies used during D-Day came directly from Britain, while two-thirds of the 12,000 aircraft involved were also British, as were two-thirds of those that landed in occupied France. Despite the initial slaughter at Omaha, casualties across the American and British beaches were much the same.

edition.cnn.com...

Britain had by far the lead role in both men and equipment on D Day.

Lets end this nonsense that it was a U.S. lead operation.

a reply to: ScepticScot


There was oil shipment via Franco is Spain that was a 'serious' issue
and historically the U.S. has been upbraided for, of course the same response for cutting oil to Japan. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

The U.S. wasn't at war with Germany. Not any different than not being at war with say, Canada. Therefore, Corporations can do business with whom they profit from without restraint.

Not when it come to warships, however. THAT is a policy decision by gov't. PERIOD.

So please don't spin business practices with gov't support of the U.K.'s war effort.

a reply to: alldaylong


Fair enough, allowing without the U.S. support prior to D-Day , those supplies, materials, etc. likely wouldn't have been available for the U.K.'s to use. At least, certainly not to the degree that they were.

Or are you implying the U.K. could have pulled off D-Day without the U.S.? .....

a reply to: TheSpanishArcher


If memory serves, it was the German invasion of Poland that initiated the declaration of war on Germany.