Socialism is a stepping stone towards Communism

a reply to: ketsuko

Don't you think capitalism inevitably makes power elite that want to destroy competition?

How can we control this without very enlightened legislation separating not only church and state but corporations and state. I think that is a new amendment that needs to be imposed. There is no need for the state to support business and no need for business to support state. They should be separate.

a reply to: MayanBoricua

Socialism died a long time ago. And communism also died. What is left is the concept of social democrasy.

en.wikipedia.org...

The (world-wide) ecconomical concept of capitalism is just this, in my definition: The last sparkle of a rotten mind-set (a concept that is not properly justified scientifically) that does not know what a healthy and happy community is all about.

a reply to: SaturnFX

How would we know? We've never seen it anywhere to actually see it in action. All we know is what we have been taught about it which was taught to us by professors who favor socialism.

But we do see the results of socialism and communism every single day. All we have to do is look around the world and ask those who have lived them.

a reply to: buster2010

Your points are valid and need to be addressed. Very few capitalists are addressing these issues in a realistic way.

I think our expansion into space is a solution as far as new job markets but that is a valid arguement you have.

a reply to: Willingly

Social democracy is a lie thought up by socialists who don't want you to think it's socialism.

It's basically secondary socialism.

Say you famr cows. In socialism, the state owns your farm, tells you how many cows you must produce. It may or may not let you keep and dispose of any surplus cows in any given year, likely not though, as they are the people's cows, not yours.

In secondary socialism, the state does not own your farm or cows. But after you have sold your calves for the year, the state levies such a high tax on the amount you made that they may as well have owned them. In other words, the state takes the lion's share of your profit from the sale to distribute as it sees fit.

In secondary socialism, the state also has so many rules and regulations about how your farm must be run and your cows raised, they all you really did when making the decision to go into business was choose to do so and then invest a lot of your own money. Almost all the other critical business decisions are very often dictated by the state via regulation.

At this point, we might as well stop calling this democratic socialism and state calling it what it really is more like - fascism in the mold of Mussolini's Italy. That's much more what democratic socialism is. So we really should be honest about it, and Mussolini did call himself a socialist.

We debated Socialism and Capitalism in one of my threads some time ago. One of the posters said that the problem with Socialism and the thing that makes Capitalism superior is incentive. Whereas people have an incentive under Capitalism to produce a better product, under Socialism there is no incentive to improve.

Socialism is a higher form of government than Capitalism and it has some great ideas/ concepts behind it but without any incentive, it eventually falls flat on its face.

You had me till you said "Y'All" then all your creditability went Gone With The Wind.

Frankly, My dear OP, "I don't give a damn!"

a reply to: MayanBoricua

Sort of like marijuana is the gateway towards krokodil. or how capitalism is the stepping stone towards a slavery-based economy. or how same-sex marriage is the road towards toaster polygamy. Or how watching cartoons will lead to pedophilia. Or how letting your kids trick-or-treat will lead to satanism.

Socialism is socialism. it's a distinct ideology from communism.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: SaturnFX

How would we know? We've never seen it anywhere to actually see it in action. All we know is what we have been taught about it which was taught to us by professors who favor socialism.

But we do see the results of socialism and communism every single day. All we have to do is look around the world and ask those who have lived them.

What? no..there was rampant capitalism only in the late 1700s and hell, half to most of the 1800s
its when the norm for society was abject poverty (it was the best of times, it was the worst of times ring a bell?).

Socialism is a relatively new government form that grew as we tossed away the ruling class and aristrocracy, when corporations started to surface, and a safety net was able to form to stop the leagues of shanty town common folk, the peasant class, the starving masses, etc.
It was necessary back then, and far more now when jobs are becoming less due to trade laws allowing new slave labor (foreign) and wealth consolidation.
capitalism destroys a lot, and corporate interests arent interested in helping out anyone except for their board of directors and investors, thats it..so robotics and foreign slave labor camps is how things are done..not ye olde factory that supports a town.

We know it doesnt work, because again, as pointed out, the only places on earth with relatively no social programs are also the most poorest on earth.
meanwhile currently the most programs and care that the socialist/capitalist hybrid is in place (northern european) enjoy high productivity, highest standard of loving, highest happyness index, quality and length of life, and low deficit.

I dont understand why you reject these realities..you can research them, pull up the statistics, polls, and see this is the case. why have ideology over facts?

And finally, you right wingers have watered down the term socialism soo much..soo damn much over these years that no wonder people are now legit considering electing a actual socialist...keep crying wolf...thats working out great.

originally posted by: MayanBoricua

My message to y'all is this: Learn from the past. You can vote your freedoms away, but you can never vote them back. Do not fall for Utopian lies.

And that's it in a nutshell.

This is what people don't get.

Works great in the Nordics, Germany, Holland, France, Austria, but hey what do i know.. The Nordic have a top 10 placings in the world when it comes to living.. But damn, how did they do it, what is their trick.. Oooh we adopted a nature model, obligation to society.. oOh you thought our system comes from fantasies of money?

Run along idealists, you need a little more brain to understand... how it works in the real world..

Yes, it all starts with those damn college professors.

Judges are scrutinized on their adherence to the Constitution, there is Freedom of the Press guaranteed, but the Founding Fathers left a loophole, the college professor, for the enemies of the State to ply their craft.

a reply to: ketsuko

Since there are about 7 billion humans on planet earth right now, some form of "goverment" is needed, right? What's your idea (concept) of taking care of them all, ecconomically AND politiacally? I'm just asking. Anarchie? Capitalisim orwellishly re-named as freedom of choise? Tell me. I wanna know.

Is not that I enjoy talking about politics in a country not of my own but I just want to say that communism/socialism destroyed my country and it still does. The former president used to talk bad of Cuba and communism before becoming president and see what we got? they still call themselves socialists not communists and they still call it democracy. Anyways I agree capitalism is not the way to go but I believe we do have to change a lot in order to change for something definitely better not a false hope a cure worst than the disease...

Basic needs, like health, education, housing, transportation, food, the justice system should be socialized and the rest, aesthetics, luxuries and any personal needs that do not fall into basic needs, should be capitalized.

We do not deserve the right to call our civilization "evolved" before we attain those petty objectives.

Pure capitalism has absolutely no other direction than monopolies and the abuse of the majority, there is simply no other way. Pure socialism makes it all too boring and very hard to be socially sustainable for long periods of time.

I'm all for socialism in the right fields, go socialism! Help pave the way to a better tomorrow.

originally posted by: Esoterotica
a reply to: Cobaltic1978

Socialism is like marijuana. Only people who haven't had enough of it think they don't like it.

Socialism is not like marijuana. If you don't think you like pot, you never have to touch it again and your life will go on as you choose for it to. Socialism is like a straitjacket. The more you hate it, the tighter it gets. If you aren't crazy when they put it on you, you'll go crazy before they're satisfied.

a reply to: SaturnFX

And did you directly experience it, or are you simply learning it from those who are teaching it to you? And what perspectives do that who teach it favor?

You can learn a lot about history, but you can also learn a lot about the people who are teaching it to you at the same time.

History is such a large and complex subject that it can easily be condensed to fit someone's narrative. I learned this from my own brush with collegiate history. I got US History Since 1867 through two difference perspectives: that of my black studies professor who taught it through the lens of the black experience and that of a conservative leaning Vietnam vet who was brought in to tutor me in the subject. Between the two, I got an extremely broad perspective of the subject, but I also learned that the subject is brought enough with enough depth to allow it to seem like two different subjects at the same time. Likely, a third and fourth teacher could have found angles just as unrelated.

a reply to: MayanBoricua

Socialism is a stepping stone towards Communism

Capitalism drives people to socialism. The only people who support Captialism are those who win under that system or those that are mere pawns of the system and being used by the capitalists.

Have you even read Marx? Your idea of socialism and communism is not true Marxism, your country is doing it wrong, thus it is not truly communism based on Marx. You guys are doing a different type of communism, whatever you wanna call it. In a true socialist society the government has ownership along with the people. In a true communist society, there would be no poverty since all people will have worked based on their niche, there would be no currency as a form of exchange since your help will be the exchange. Everyone would want to help each other since they would have a purpose. No country has achieved a true communist society according to Marx. No country has went through an industrial revolution, then to government citizen ownership, then to work based on niches with no currency. And didn't Weber write Utopia after Marx died?

So another socialism thread, where ATS members get to tell us their personal and often uneducated view of a system they don't really understand, still suffering from the influence of McCarthyism, that was so prevalent in American culture and politics for so long. Whatever sanders says, nothing will change the fact that we live in a world domininated by global capitalism. Just look at the financial news and it concentrates on a global economic system. There is nothing any politician in any country who can change this fact. Even Mao or Stalin, wouldnt have ambitions to change this fact. From what I can see from sanders, he just wants to return democracy to the citizens and the ballot box and out of the hands of a rich plutocracy. Who are currently running the country and the world, but as I've said Americans would rather be ruled by the financial elite than take the responsibility of taking control of your own destiny, because they have been led by the nose by a media owned by this plutocracy, who control and disseminate information about what you should think about. Led to believe. That you too could be the plutocracy and a billionaire. It's all part of the American Dream. You too can be a billionaire plutocrat rather than just an American voting citizen. Don't be fooled by the socialism slurs. It's propaganda, given to you by the people who enjoy the current plutocracy. And who own the means of information dispersal,