An honest question for discussion: Where, when and why did the US begin to fall?

Good evening folks. Don't worry, this won't be a smash and run. I'm looking to open a serious discussion about a controversial topic. As such, I am hoping for a good in-depth discussion instead of the "so and so is an idiot...he ruined the country."

To begin, I will say I am finally increasing my historical knowledge (specifically of presidents and the wars pertaining to the US as well as historical domestic maters). I don't profess to know more than anyone here. In fact, I am doing this for a good ATS discussion, but also to completely open my mind despite my own political leanings. SOOOOO...all responses, even if I disagree are very, very welcome. In fact, those might even be better...help get me out of overt-biases

So I am on my fourth presidential biography. I have completed a couple of well-written biographies on Grant, then on Eisenhower, then Abraham Lincoln. I am currently about 55-60% through Woodrow Wilson. I am stating with presidents who presided over war at the outset or duration, or in the case of Grant and to a slightly different extent, Eisenhower (as he was sort of both by inheritance), a president formerly steeped in war. After that, I am moving on to presidents commonly believed to be "the worst" by aggregate votes.

So as a side note...after Wilson, does anyone have a suggestion of the next bio for me? Thanks!

The topic here is what, where, why, how and when do you believe the United States, as a whole, began to fall short of the powerhouse we were. Do you believe we've EVER been a powerhouse? Do you believe we are STILL a powerhouse and just as strong? I am looking for all answers regardless. However, I am very taken with the question of the 5 W's and an H of when you think we began to falter or completely collapse.

Stuff I am interested in is your opinion, stats, etc. (and no you aren't helping me write a paper I promise)

Do you feel a certain president destroyed us? Do you feel a certain season of the House or Senate made us falter? Did a SCOTUS decision pave the way for our messy future? Was it a certain war or police action that made us fall from grace? etc, etc...you get the point.

It isn't perfect...but I was looking at Wiki's agg list of presidential ranking...and started to wonder if perhaps it was a wee-bit biased.

en.wikipedia.org...

Does Lincoln truly deserve the number one spot? I think so...but I am ready to be challenged in my thinking? If people talked so poorly of him, why is Obama pretty far up? If people loathed GWB with so much further, how did he earn a respectable mid-pack placement?

I hope this is acceptable as a start to the thread...

MODS...after dinner and my drive home, I will be returning with my thoughts...as in-depth as possible...so I hope this is acceptable

Thank you all

December 22, 1913 Federal Reserve Act

So that would be Woodrow Wilson

Sharp decline in US happened with Obama...

originally posted by: Skywatcher2011
Sharp decline in US happened with Obama...

Sharp decline? Decline of what?

The United States ceased being a "free" republic when Abraham Lincoln waged war on the states that no longer wanted to associate with a tyrannical federal government.

Liberty is meaningless when you don't have the option of leaving.

The decline of America started with JFK, he got us into Vietnam via the UN, before that it was all on the rise, after that we became a welfare State.

A few have slowed the decline since then but Obummer is doing his best to send the US on the final spin down the toilet bowl. v

I actually think the idea that America is failing is a myth.

Conspiracy theorists love to claim that America is collapsing, but even though the 18 trillion debt keeps rising, America is actually in pretty good shape financially.

Politically, though, it's a nightmare. Corruption in politics is rampant, Supreme Court only makes decisions based on politics of each judge instead of based in actual law, education is a nightmare, medical system is horrendous, education is a complete disaster, and moral fibre of Americans is at an all time low. People the world over look at America as a pariah.

In spite of all this, I feel that America is still strong.

We rose to power after cheap labor and the industrial boom. China is currently undergoing the same trend we did years ago, and look where they are heading.

a reply to: KyoZero

I am not sure I think that the US has started to fall, or at least not yet. I do think that WW2 did a lot to give power to the US on an international level, so check out FDR and Turman and look into a book on the creation of the CIA.

The importance of foreign politics grew rapidly in the US after WW2. I know Wilson helped to craft the League of Nations, but W. Harding, C. Coolidge and H. Hoover were all weak presidents that did little to expand America's role in foreign policy. Even FDR was all about domestic policies before WW2.

Now the rest of you OP seems to be on how to rank the presidents, and I must say that Lincoln will probably always be near the top because he will always be remembered as the president who ended slavery.

For a list of bad presidents:
J. Buchanan was not good at his job, Millard Fillmore and Franklin Pierce did little in their presidencies, W. McKinley was not that good of a person and W. Wilson was a racist.

Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong is a wonderful book by James Loewen and its reference section will provide a great source of more books on American History. I would also suggest reading anything by Howard Zinn.

a reply to: KyoZero
On your side-note question - I suggest studying Nixon indirectly.
The first two volumes of Kissinger's memoirs will give you a very close insight into the workings of his presidential power.

originally posted by: TinfoilTP
The decline of America started with JFK, he got us into Vietnam via the UN, before that it was all on the rise, after that we became a welfare State.

A few have slowed the decline since then but Obummer is doing his best to send the US on the final spin down the toilet bowl. v

Actually, even though I feel that America really isn't in decline, the perception of the time of America came with Fractional Banking after getting off the Gold Standard.

Before then, banks could only do business with the money they had. Banking and stock trading were tightly controlled, banks actually had to have money in them to exist.

After fractional banking, the entire system changed. Banks were able to get much more risky with their investments, and did so with companies that really didn't need the help. Banks started lending money they didn't have, and got careless.

Banks stopped caring about people, and focused on the bottom line. When corporations saw the money that banks started to make, they did the same.

People forgot that making money for money's sake is ridiculous. If you're not doing GOOD with your money, you're only making money.

Billionnaires used to change the world. Now, billionaires just want more billions.

Where? In the hearts of men and women.

When? The US isn't falling, its evolving.

Why? Order out of chaos.

New order cannot arise from order. It must also not be so chaotic as to fail. They are incrementally deconstructing people's ideas of what America previously stood for. We are failing, not America.

$9.45 trillion in the hole to $19 trillion in the hole AND RISING FAST...isn't that telling you something under his direction where the economy took a vast turn?

a reply to: NthOther

I must agree. The so-called Civil War preserved the Union, but brought the Republic to an end, especially so when the debt of it ran the country into bankruptcy and it was reorganized as a corporation.

originally posted by: Skywatcher2011
$9.45 trillion in the hole to $19 trillion in the hole AND RISING FAST...isn't that telling you something under his direction where the economy took a vast turn?

At this point, do you think anyone in government really cares how much they spend? The debt is an imaginary number that only exists to show that we're actually spending money. The only real debt is the one you and I put ourselves in.

1933

FDR became President.

I think it began with the unrelenting purchases of low-cost goods from China and the continuous quantitative easing. China is buying the paper and should they choose to dump their treasures, the war will be over without a shot.

Some time around JFK's assassination is where I think we started to decline.

Not to say good things haven't happened since then... but I think that was a big turning point where we saw a typical American with liberty and freedom in mind (and not corporatism) would not be allowed into American politics. Especially as president.

America reached the pinnacle of her awesomeness during the presidency of RONALD REAGAN. After Ronald Reagan, there was no one as great as he. The Gipper was the greatest.Where are you Ronnie? We need you!

November 2008 with the election of Barack Hussein Obama.