I Hate the Abortion Issue

I hate the abortion issue. It is my main source of frustration when trying to piece together my world view. Nearly every other issue I can come to a logical conclusion on, but this one issue seems incapable of being resolved logically.

My problem is this...

I believe abortion is the murder of an unborn human.

I am against killing for any reason except in self-defense.

but, I also have these beliefs...

I believe in individual liberty above all things.

I believe people have the right to make their own decisions.

I cannot possibly resolve this issue logically given the above beliefs. What I have ended up with as a position is that since I cannot personally reconcile this issue then I must leave it up to the individual to make their own decision. I also believe that if I am going to make an error in judgement I would rather err on the side of personal liberty.

So, I am personally disgusted by abortion and the murder of the unborn (note this is not for religious reasons as I am not religious), however, I must remain pro-choice because of my strong Libertarian beliefs.

I don't have any other issues like this that creates so much internal strife. Gay marriage? Easy, I might find homosexuality personally distasteful, but they aren't hurting anyone and as my fellow American citizens they have the right to get married. Wars? No war except in defense of our borders or citizens. Death penalty? Easy again...no killing except in self-defense therefore no death penalty.

Anyway, I really hate the abortion issue and I can't be the only one that has this internal conflict.

So that's my rant and I wish I felt better, but I don't.

a reply to: Metallicus

I hate it too but I also support people's right to have one. Even for any reason.

I used to not care and I never thought much about it either way. I've had many friends who had them and I never thought much about the issue.

But since my daughter is here in the world now, I can't imagine abortion anymore.
I still support the right to have one, but it now leaves me with a bad feeling when I try to imagine what it really means.

Which is why the abortion debate usually filters down to: Are those being aborted actual human beings...with rights of their own?

IMO...abortion advocates are treating babies in the womb, just as black people used to be treated as slaves; they are not considered to be human, deserve no human rights...and are merely personal property.

The way I personally see it is that a woman has a right to do to her body what she desires, a baby who has yet to even develop fully is not alive in my opinion, they aren't 'alive' until after they are fully formed and have some basic cognitive capabilities. While I believe abortion to be ok, I will say there is a cut off limit to where I find it ok, at some point it becomes murder if the baby is far along enough in its development. Another thing I think about it is that the mother is in a way saving that baby a lot of hardships and suffering on a world such as ours, so there is a silver lining to it all in my opinion.

I believe having a child without financial stability, high nuture levels and having a child that was not "wanted" is worse than abortion. Of course medical issues come into the frame also.

I believe having a child knowing you cannot provide a decent/high quality of life is a worse crime.

In these type of debates I reside in the functionalist approach. Without abortion china would be crippled by now. The sustainability of the planet takes presidency with me.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Aren't alive until fully formed??? Don't think you quite meant that otherwise I would abort alot of 21 yr olds....lol

originally posted by: rossacus
I believe having a child without financial stability, high nuture levels and having a child that was not "wanted" is worse than abortion. Of course medical issues come into the frame also.

I believe having a child knowing you cannot provide a decent/high quality of life is a worse crime.

That's why we have adoption.

Slave owners facing the same situation with a slave they couldn't handle...could dispose of them in any way they found convenient.

a reply to: Metallicus

I follow your exact sentiments on these issues.

a reply to: IAMTAT

Adoption is the exact thing I have an issue with. You have damaged the child from a young age, deprived of maternal care and put into a system of no accountability . That attitude is what I hate, I will bring a life into this world and give it up and place the burden onto someone else. Yes I know couples that can't have children want this option but it's the child we are talking about. Many many children in care have cognitive and empathy problems.

originally posted by: rossacus
a reply to: IAMTAT

Adoption is the exact thing I have an issue with. You have damaged the child from a young age, deprived of maternal care and put into a system of no accountability . That attitude is what I hate, I will bring a life into this world and give it up and place the burden onto someone else. Yes I know couples that can't have children want this option but it's the child we are talking about. Many many children in care have cognitive and empathy problems.

Many adopted children are much better off with their adopted parents. Better for unwanted children to be raised with parents who want and love them, than with parents who do not.

a reply to: Metallicus

Yeah, me too. But what I hate more are those Viagra commercials with beautiful women promoting it but not a word about using condoms.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: Metallicus

Yeah, me too. But what I hate more are those Viagra commercials with beautiful women promoting it but not a word about using condoms.

Completely Agree!

a reply to: Metallicus

I believe your problem is that you may believe too much of the pro-life rhetoric that always tries to equate pro-choice to being pro-abortion. But there is a reason pro-choice is labeled the way it is, because people like you exist.

a reply to: Metallicus

Yes, I hate it, too, but it is best we keep it all out in the open for our collective sanity's sake.

It is really only just brute nature at work. In the Universe and nature's scheme of things we are built to pro create. That is what nature does. The organic machinations of our biological being forces upon us mutual desire that over rides logic, foresight, etc. The best of us can fall prey to passion in certain circumstances and when we are vulnerable.

Women, at certain times of their monthly menstrual cycle are less rational and more given over to sexual receptivity. Don't blame women for this, blame nature. Though we know how pointless that is and we should know what slaves we are to certain dictates of our instincts, needs and desires.

Most people are very poor. Most people are not educated to have foresight. When we are younger we are much more likely to be slaves of our desires and do stuff like unprotected sex.

OP, I don't know why you worry so much. Why not just deal with it when it becomes necessary for you to make decisions? I expect you are a bright, thinking chap who would not make errors like this. However, you will never get everyone to behave the way you want them to. Lol, the Catholic Church with all its Inquisition, control, with hunts could not pull it off so my friend you will not have a chance.

If a woman decides it is her course of action I will not judge her for it or call her a murderer. She has just made an error because of the tricks nature plays with us to get us to pro create.

originally posted by: IAMTAT
Which is why the abortion debate usually filters down to: Are those being aborted actual human beings...with rights of their own?

I think it is obvious that it is an actual human being. I think that those that advocate for abortion are simply avoiding this fact to be able to do what they do to an unborn human. Like I said...this issue suck.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Metallicus

I believe your problem is that you may believe too much of the pro-life rhetoric that always tries to equate pro-choice to being pro-abortion. But there is a reason pro-choice is labeled the way it is, because people like you exist.

What exactly do you mean by 'people like me'???

a reply to: Metallicus

I REALLY feel for you on this one. Because I have the same thoughts (minus the word "murder"). To resolve it, I asked myself three questions and had to be VERY honest about the answers:

1. "Should the government be able to force a woman NOT to have a child (to have an abortion)??"
Answer: NO! Then why should they be able to force a woman TO have a child?

2. "Which is more important to me? My personal beliefs about what other people do, or my support of individual rights (even if I strongly disagree with them) and a person's right to self-determination?"
Answer: My support of individual rights, including self-determination. Everyone has personal beliefs and opinions, and are entitled to them. But no one opinion should be applied to everyone.

3. "If I campaign against abortion, what am I willing to do for the unwanted babies that result?"
Answer: Nothing. I have my own life to deal with. I can't and don't want to support millions of unwanted babies.

Bottom line, if women ARE "murdering babies", either God or the universe or karma can deal with it. It's NOT my position to impose my opinion on others, any more than it's others' place to impose their opinion on me.

Good luck with this one... It's tough to get through, but I feel MUCH better now that I've struggled to come to my own understanding.

People hate me now because of my beliefs (I fully support the choice to have an abortion). What many don't know is that I think abortion is abhorrent and would never have one. That's why I'm SO supportive of cheap (or free) and accessible birth control. Because it prevents abortion. That is a wonderful goal.

a reply to: Metallicus

I share some of your sentiments as well, but I'd like to add two things.

No person has ever enjoyed an abortion.

Sometimes abortion SAVES a life. ( ectopic pregnancy, etc)

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I love having some common ground with you for a change.

I have always regretted that we don't agree on more things because I do consider you a caring, thoughtful individual. I also appreciate you sharing your insight on this issue with me.