Murder Rates Rising Sharply in Many U.S. Cities

a reply to: The Vagabond

Me blaming big government is not an endorsement for "Shrinking the government".

Big cities can't "shrink".

With all their massive failures, they need to figure out how to solve the problems.

I wonder what their final answers will end up being?

originally posted by: Bennyzilla
a reply to: Kryties

My language has all been very clear not manipulative. The language you use DOES matter if your intended goal is to get people to read and really comprehend what you have to say. It's clear that's not your interest. You want to stand on a soapbox and say your point, and then put your fingers in your ears when people respond.

Are you STILL harping on about one particular phrase I used? Are you STILL ignoring the actual meat of the post and the indisputable facts? Why is that I wonder?

It's not showing facts to tell me to "Google it", Mr.Jones

Well, clearly you have been living under a rock the last few years because it has been regular news worldwide since the debate on American gun control has been brought into the spotlight again.

Seriously, Google it. I'd post my proof but I would be here for days posting all the links - simpler if you just Google it and stop being lazy

I've attempted to bridge the gap by letting you know we are on the same side here,

Could have fooled me, you cherrypicked an insignificant part of my post and blew it out of all proportion - instead of addressing the proven fact that gun restrictions in Australia have had a massive effect on gun crime rates and murders, also a massive downswing in suicides. This was clearly a deflection on your part, why is that I wonder?

I don't think it's JUST about guns; it's pretty easy to access firearms in Canada, for instance, but the murder rate is significantly lower than that of its next-door neighbour.

What Americans need to wrestle with is the widespread casualness about killing (people, animals). The value of human life is equivocal. This is evident in the use of language.

Take the common expression, "I killed a man/He killed a man/She killed a man."

In other countries the word "man" would be stressed, but not in the US. "Killed" is stressed...the object of the killing is almost an irrelevance.

Sends shivers down my spine...

originally posted by: CJCrawley
I don't think it's JUST about guns; it's pretty easy to access firearms in Canada, for instance, but the murder rate is significantly lower than that of its next-door neighbour.

What Americans need to wrestle with is the widespread casualness about killing (people, animals). The value of human life is equivocal. This is evident in the use of language.

Take the common expression, "I killed a man/He killed a man/She killed a man."

In other countries the word "man" would be stressed, but not in the US. "Killed" is stressed...the object of the killing is almost an irrelevance.

Sends shivers down my spine...

To be honest I agree with your point here.

a reply to: Kryties


Never denied your facts, just the way you presented them. Whats funny is how easy it is for me to say, yes the facts are there, i see them, but you can't accept that you don't handle those facts with care.

You got rid of guns in Australia and it lowered your suicide and homicide rates. Got ya. No objections there.

Can you take a strategy that worked in one culture and apply it to another and get the same results? Probably not.

The fact that you had a gun buyback/ban and everyone besides your conservatives went along with it is proof enough that the mindset is completely different. Try that on a grand scale in America. It will not be anything like it was in Australia I can tell you that.

So where does that leave your facts you wanted me to look at? Well? It kind of leaves them in the category of

"Interesting but not really relevant to the conversation"

or possibly

"If only America was Australia then I'd totally be right"

originally posted by: Bennyzilla
a reply to: Kryties


Never denied your facts, just the way you presented them. Whats funny is how easy it is for me to say, yes the facts are there, i see them, but you can't accept that you don't handle those facts with care.

You got rid of guns in Australia and it lowered your suicide and homicide rates. Got ya. No objections there.

Can you take a strategy that worked in one culture and apply it to another and get the same results? Probably not.

The fact that you had a gun buyback/ban and everyone besides your conservatives went along with it is proof enough that the mindset is completely different. Try that on a grand scale in America. It will not be anything like it was in Australia I can tell you that.

So where does that leave your facts you wanted me to look at? Well? It kind of leaves them in the category of

"Interesting but not really relevant to the conversation"

or possibly

"If only America was Australia then I'd totally be right"

Congratulations on finally addressing the topic of that post - 3 pages later.....

While yes, we may have a slightly different culture to America we are not THAT different. We aren't "aliens" you know. Thing is, how would you know if you don't try?

EDIT TO ADD: Oh and we didn't "get rid of guns" entirely, we simply introduced strict ownership laws and a strict licensing system that filters out 99.99999% of undesirables. The American NRA crowd would have Americans believe that gun restrictions = total gun ban which is totally ridiculous and serves only as a misdirection from the truth of the matter.

a reply to: xuenchen

The rise in poverty, the rise in income inequality, the constant bombardment of materialism being advertised on the TV, making people believe that possessions and Logos lead to happiness.

The over sexulizaition of our culture that portrays sex as the path to happiness. The degradation of women through pornography and other forms of media that makes them objects of flesh without regard to their intelligence and beauty of their soul.

Hate and intolerance sensationalized by the media which causes even more hate and intolerance.

A world who's leaders are criminals sold to the highest bidders.

When those who proclaim to be pushing the world towards the highest morals do so by breaking the law, how can anyone take them for moral men?

A constant state of fear and war pushing us to the brink of desperation and a complete lack of trust in one another which leads to insanity.

The militarized and desensitized police force that operates under the us verses them premise in a war on everything.

An overworked, understaffed and underpaid police force that finds more value in corruption than virtue.

The complete failure of a war on drugs that needs to be changed to the Love and rehabilitation of drug addicts, which is also cheaper.

I think that covers the basics of a world gone mad.

Add - Our leaders keep ignoring the real problems and tell us they need to further violate the law by reducing or eliminating the 2nd Amendment. As if taking away our guns is the solution to ending the insanity.

Anyone who can't figure out why crime is so high and wants to blame it on gun ownership is a Moron.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: xuenchen

The rise in poverty, the rise in income inequality, the constant bombardment of materialism being advertised on the TV, making people believe that possessions and Logos lead to happiness.

The over sexulizaition of our culture that portrays sex as the path to happiness. The degradation of women through pornography and other forms of media that makes them objects of flesh without regard to their intelligence and beauty of their soul.

A world who's leaders are criminals sold to the highest bidders.

When those who proclaim to be pushing the world towards the highest morals do so by breaking the law, how can anyone take them for moral men?

A constant state of fear and war pushing us to the brink of desperation and a complete lack of trust in one another which leads to insanity.

The militarized and desensitized police force that operates under the us for them im a war on everything.

An overworked, understaffed and underpaid police force that finds more value in corruption than virtue.

I think that covers the basics of a world gone mad.

Destroy all technology....

a reply to: Kryties

Still waiting for that apology on the knowing use of manipulative language to frame an argument in a particular way as opposed to just presenting the facts and letting them do the talking. I'll just be right here waiting. I've got confetti ready to fall from the ceiling and balloons too.

We've had gun buybacks, on a much smaller scales, and the majority of the guns bought back were old family heirlooms and guns that hadn't been fired in ages. I don't remember seeing the Mafia or Gangs show up in a van to drop off all their 9mm's. So in Australia did they go door to door and search for the guns? I wouldn't want to be the guy with that job here in America...

originally posted by: Bennyzilla
a reply to: Kryties

Still waiting for that apology

I'd suggest taking a seat, you'll be waiting quite a while.

on the knowing use of manipulative language to frame an argument in a particular way as opposed to just presenting the facts and letting them do the talking. I'll just be right here waiting. I've got confetti ready to fall from the ceiling and balloons too.

Thanks for confirming you deliberately took an insignificant part of the post and blew it out of all proportion. I assume you had the confetti and balloons waiting to go the minute you found something insignificant you could pick on.

We've had gun buybacks, on a much smaller scales, and the majority of the guns bought back were old family heirlooms and guns that hadn't been fired in ages. I don't remember seeing the Mafia or Gangs show up in a van to drop off all their 9mm's. So in Australia did they go door to door and search for the guns? I wouldn't want to be the guy with that job here in America...

No door-to-door or anything like that. Just an "amnesty" that enabled anyone who had an illegal gun to hand them into police stations with no consequences. I remember a friend telling me that they saw an old lady go into a station requesting help from officers to get the guns out of her car - and it took 3 of them literally carrying armloads of guns out of her car. My grandfather had a few guns and he handed in (and was paid for) the ones deemed illegal and got a license for the others.

People here saw the common sense in the gun restrictions - it took a mass murder to do so but we ensured that the chances of that ever happening again were greatly reduced. It boggles most of the rest of the worlds minds that America can have so many murders, and mass murders, in such a short space of time and yet cannot, or will not, do anything to address it.

a reply to: xuenchen

Nobody seems to be able to put their finger on the "reasons" either.

I'm sure video games will get the blame, just like movies and TV did in previous generations.

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
I'm sure video games will get the blame, just like movies and TV did in previous generations.

Black Sabbath and Gary Gygax.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Not to mention Jack the Ripper- did his family posing with deceased loved ones warp his fragile little mind?

Posing with deceased loved ones in front of a camera was the style at the time.

Every single person in this thread pretending to know why this is happening is full of crap--nobody on here knows, and to speak with authority as if you do does nothing but further the divide...the same divide that has probably lead to at least a few of these murders.

Why can't we just see a story like in the OP and think to ourselves, "Wow...this sucks. I wonder what's causing that?" Seriously, why do we always think we have to pretend to know the answer before there has even been any time to analyze the "why" behind the happening?

Here in Cincinnati, I hear about murders and shootings all the time on the news--it literally feels like every night, there has been a new shooting, or stabbing, or beating. Then there are stories on the news about "community guns," where these punk criminals stash firearms in secret locations throughout certain high-crime areas, and anyone who knows about them can conceivably go get it (ammunition is included, of course), use it in a crime, and put it back when done.

It's not about the gun, it's about the illegal ways that these criminals have access to guns. It's about the hearts of people above anything else, and when these hearts feel nothing for the lives of other human beings, this stuff will continue. It's about the condition of the human, and right now, it seems like the condition is deteriorating.

I just wish that we knew (not speculated) about the why behind that.

originally posted by: Kryties
People here saw the common sense in the gun restrictions - it took a mass murder to do so but we ensured that the chances of that ever happening again were greatly reduced.

No, you ensured nothing. You hoped that it would reduce the likelihood of a mass murder and, luckily for you Aussies, it seems to have worked out so far.

But here's what you're doing that is insincere--you're comparing a country of slightly more than 23 million to a country with slightly less than 319 million. We could easily find an area of America that has 23 million people in it where mass murders have not been committed within the same timeframe that Australia has had restrictive gun laws enacted.

You're comparing dingoes to wolves, here, and while there may be a few similarities, you cannot run with the results and correctly claim that the correlation equates to causation...at least not if you're maintaining intellectual integrity.

There are so many variables that come into play with the "why" behind the motives/triggering of a mass murderer--country of origin and gun laws don't matter.

a reply to: xuenchen

So big government really isn't something to address in the context of this thread and we should actually be talking about more direct and manageable causes of violence?
I can go with that.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: Kryties
People here saw the common sense in the gun restrictions - it took a mass murder to do so but we ensured that the chances of that ever happening again were greatly reduced.

No, you ensured nothing. You hoped that it would reduce the likelihood of a mass murder and, luckily for you Aussies, it seems to have worked out so far.

If by "so far" you mean several DECADES......

No hope required by the way. It doesn't take a genius to figure out.

You know what? Keep your damn guns, wall off your entire country and the rest of us will sit back with a beer and watch the fun.

originally posted by: The Vagabond
a reply to: xuenchen

So big government really isn't something to address in the context of this thread and we should actually be talking about more direct and manageable causes of violence?
I can go with that.

Sure you can.

But it might take a successful big government to solve the problems.

Trimming a hedge doesn't stop the branches from growing back.

And any solutions might require big government and all the failure that goes with it.

originally posted by: xuenchen
Something is amok for sure. Why have they failed to solve this problem?

They're literally seeing the statistics rising as we speak, so it's a little ridiculous to be asking why they haven't fixed this "already" when murder rates have been on the decline each year before this one.

And I really don't think this has much to do with the unwillingness of police to get involved. The level of crime we're talking about here has nothing to do with stopping people and searching them because they're driving while black.

Unless there's data to show a sharp decline in guns being seized through searches then it cannot be claimed that this has anything to do with that.

Personally I think it has everything to do with economic decline. We've seen it throughout history. When people become poorer and start to struggle more, they become more desperate. This results in crime, which results in more crime, which results in more...

If the government really wants to get a handle on this it needs to work on finally getting rid of the ghettos, leveling the playing field between rich and poor, and fixing the economic crisis they've done nothing but paper over for the last decade.

a reply to: xuenchen

Kinda feels like you're arguing for the sins of government and against anything it might do going forward, yet not against it. There's got to be an answer that requires less of a balancing act.

Personally I gave up and just got a hobby and resolved to act a fool in the face of the things I can't actually control- it's amazing how many of society's problems and pitfalls you can simply opt out of much of the time.