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Concern trolls
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I've been accused of being a concern troll.
From my point of view, that accusation only seems to come up when there is a general consensus in a group, and one person agrees with much of it, but not all of it. There maybe one small detail they don't agree with. Then they get hassled and challenged by everyone trying to get them to conform, which mostly leads off topic- going into questioning the intents and general character of the person.
Now, dammit, I reserve the right to not agree at times, on a small detail! I don't insist anyone else joins me on it - though having a bunch of people coming at you from every angle asking you to explain yourself makes it SEEM like you're trying to insist.
It's quite common for me to disagree on a small point, and that is what got me kicked out of Sunday school as a kid. The pressure to conform 100%, to not analyze, criticize, or come to your own conclusions on issues seems so frigging irrational !
I'm adding this in mind with the techniques of "fence sitting" accusations, common enemy, and threats of heaven and hell to the strategies of conformism.
Pfft. I'm a little miffed, I admit. This is why I can't seem to join any sort of groups with a common goal, or cause - even if I sincerely care about it and want to join forces in a team effort. Why absolute and total conformism in thought is necessary to that, I do not know.
End of rant. I feel better now. I'm probably just being "tested" by people who don't know me yet. Or maybe they just have a cult-like mentality that doesn't tolerate any individualism. -in which case, who the hell cares what they think?
I guess it is only in a group of tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists that I can fit in.
“But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here.”
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
From my point of view, that accusation only seems to come up when there is a general consensus in a group, and one person agrees with much of it, but not all of it. There maybe one small detail they don't agree with. Then they get hassled and challenged by everyone trying to get them to conform, which mostly leads off topic- going into questioning the intents and general character of the person.
Now, dammit, I reserve the right to not agree at times, on a small detail! I don't insist anyone else joins me on it - though having a bunch of people coming at you from every angle asking you to explain yourself makes it SEEM like you're trying to insist.
It's quite common for me to disagree on a small point, and that is what got me kicked out of Sunday school as a kid. The pressure to conform 100%, to not analyze, criticize, or come to your own conclusions on issues seems so frigging irrational !
I'm adding this in mind with the techniques of "fence sitting" accusations, common enemy, and threats of heaven and hell to the strategies of conformism.
Pfft. I'm a little miffed, I admit. This is why I can't seem to join any sort of groups with a common goal, or cause - even if I sincerely care about it and want to join forces in a team effort. Why absolute and total conformism in thought is necessary to that, I do not know.
End of rant. I feel better now. I'm probably just being "tested" by people who don't know me yet. Or maybe they just have a cult-like mentality that doesn't tolerate any individualism. -in which case, who the hell cares what they think?
I guess it is only in a group of tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists that I can fit in.
“But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad."
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here.”
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland
a reply to: Bluesma
We can be knowledgeable with other peoples knowledge but we cannot be wise with other peoples wisdom.
There are 2 rules in life Bluesma:
1. Never tell everything you know.
That there be wisdom, me thinks.
in which case, who the hell cares what they think?
We can be knowledgeable with other peoples knowledge but we cannot be wise with other peoples wisdom.
There are 2 rules in life Bluesma:
1. Never tell everything you know.
a reply to: Bluesma
I am very partial to a quote by George Bernard Shaw about the unnecessary amount of energy that is wasted in defending the freedom of speech when we do little or nothing to defend our freedom of thought...but I can't find the quote easily, so instead I will offer another...
"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."
Keeping your own counsel from time to time, biting your lip now and then, and most of all, not giving a # about the unimportant details, is not conforming, it is putting aside your needs for the good of the whole and not only choosing your battles wisely but understanding the battlefield. Take a passive stance and assess the territory, get to know the team and understand it's structure in order to establish what they do not have which you can bring in order to improve the system. Individuality is highly important but to be beneficial to the whole, and therefore appreciated, it needs to tempered in relation to that whole (any "whole"). What can you, as an individual, add to the group to make it better?
I am very partial to a quote by George Bernard Shaw about the unnecessary amount of energy that is wasted in defending the freedom of speech when we do little or nothing to defend our freedom of thought...but I can't find the quote easily, so instead I will offer another...
"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."
Keeping your own counsel from time to time, biting your lip now and then, and most of all, not giving a # about the unimportant details, is not conforming, it is putting aside your needs for the good of the whole and not only choosing your battles wisely but understanding the battlefield. Take a passive stance and assess the territory, get to know the team and understand it's structure in order to establish what they do not have which you can bring in order to improve the system. Individuality is highly important but to be beneficial to the whole, and therefore appreciated, it needs to tempered in relation to that whole (any "whole"). What can you, as an individual, add to the group to make it better?
originally posted by: Anaana
Keeping your own counsel from time to time, biting your lip now and then, and most of all, not giving a # about the unimportant details, is not conforming, it is putting aside your needs for the good of the whole and not only choosing your battles wisely but understanding the battlefield. Take a passive stance and assess the territory, get to know the team and understand it's structure in order to establish what they do not have which you can bring in order to improve the system. Individuality is highly important but to be beneficial to the whole, and therefore appreciated, it needs to tempered in relation to that whole (any "whole"). What can you, as an individual, add to the group to make it better?
This makes sense. I do have some "yes buts.." .... but will keep them to myself, taking the advice offered with gratitude.
Thanks.
originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: Bluesma
That there be wisdom, me thinks.
in which case, who the hell cares what they think?
We can be knowledgeable with other peoples knowledge but we cannot be wise with other peoples wisdom.
There are 2 rules in life Bluesma:
1. Never tell everything you know.
What is the 2nd one? Or are we just supposed to assume it?
a reply to: soulpowertothendegree
I think it's the latter. If he told you he'd be breaking the first rule. I think...
I think it's the latter. If he told you he'd be breaking the first rule. I think...
Well many groups are rightly or wrongly hostile to a dissenting voice from newcomers
For example
Two hypothetical example to illustrate:
1 You might be a Agent whos job is to steer the group or meeting in a particular direction
2 Agents are working at the highest levels in the group and have established an atmosphere where dissenting voices are not tolerated and the risks of progressive ideas are always exaggerated.
For example
Two hypothetical example to illustrate:
1 You might be a Agent whos job is to steer the group or meeting in a particular direction
2 Agents are working at the highest levels in the group and have established an atmosphere where dissenting voices are not tolerated and the risks of progressive ideas are always exaggerated.
edit on 27 6 15 by funkadeliaaaa because: (no reason given)
edit on 27 6 15 by funkadeliaaaa because: (no reason
given)
Be yourself and let the rest deal with it. You have just as much of a right to an opinion as anyone else.
Google it, it's a thing. One of those newer terms born from this mode of communication.
I must be completely honest, looking at my long history of discussion board activity, that some of these behaviors are attributable to me. I don't do any of that "there's a problem I think you should change with your site" , but I do have the habit of pointing out self contradiction. I don't know how I developed it, but I have a view of social relationship as being supportive in helping each other spot when we are slipping into self contradiction. I see this as a common human problem, and we create obstacles for ourselves that we often fail to recognize - that those who care about us will aid us with.
Maybe it was my stepfathers influence, being a psychoanalyst who practices upon his own method of using philosophy. Basically, much of our on struggles are created by our own lack of consistancy in our values or views. LIke we sometimes are pushing on the accelarator and the brake at the same time, but not aware of it. All we need is to have that pointed out, and we can choose to let up on one or the other, and we're off again. It is a way another can be of aid or support, but without transgressing the individual will of the other - they retain the right to do this, or that, it is just a reminder that they have the choice that the friend offers.
So I have a nose for inconsistancies and appreciate when others spot them in me. Whether I agree with what they see or not, I see the attempt as a friendly and caring gesture. That is what really counts. Someone gives you a gift, whether it was something you want, need, or like, the fact that they wanted to give a gift is touching and appreciated.
So, I guess it is easy to understand how my pointing at inconsistancies all the time might be called trying to "troll" by people who , I guess, do not have this same perception of relational exchange. It is the intent being accused that seems way off to me and miffed me - as if being harrangued, called names, insulted and demanded to explain what I said AGAIN and AGAIN, was "fun" or "amusing"!! How could anyone enjoy that?? - Much less do something with the purpose of creating that situation??
I often figure it is perhaps a bump in the road to making friends or establishing some sort of trusting respect... like when a new individual enters a herd or mute, they have to go through a period of being tested, challenged, and often knocked around a bit before being accepted and trusted. But if I can find a way to avoid that painful process, I prefer to. I certainly have no desire to seek it out just for the sake of "enjoying" it.
I can certainly be wrong, stupid, misguided, but to think I am frigging laughing my head off because I desired to be abused and am getting it, is even more stupid!
A typical formulation might involve the troll's invocation of a site's espoused ideals alongside a perceived example of hypocrisy (such as contrasting "we value free speech" with the banning of a "dissenter"), and with a call for some relevant reform by the troll. This reform will frequently be burdensome or silly - the concern troll's message is: "I have some concerns about your methods. If you did these things to make your message less effective, it would be more effective."
One common tactic of concern trolls is the "a plague on both your houses" approach, where the concern troll tries to convince people that both sides of the ideological divide are just as bad as each other, and so no one can think themselves "correct" but must engage in endless hedging and caveats. This preys on a willingness to debate critics and allow dissent; everyone wastes time discussing the matter and bending over backwards, so as not to appear intolerant of disagreement, all to the great amusement of the troll.
I must be completely honest, looking at my long history of discussion board activity, that some of these behaviors are attributable to me. I don't do any of that "there's a problem I think you should change with your site" , but I do have the habit of pointing out self contradiction. I don't know how I developed it, but I have a view of social relationship as being supportive in helping each other spot when we are slipping into self contradiction. I see this as a common human problem, and we create obstacles for ourselves that we often fail to recognize - that those who care about us will aid us with.
Maybe it was my stepfathers influence, being a psychoanalyst who practices upon his own method of using philosophy. Basically, much of our on struggles are created by our own lack of consistancy in our values or views. LIke we sometimes are pushing on the accelarator and the brake at the same time, but not aware of it. All we need is to have that pointed out, and we can choose to let up on one or the other, and we're off again. It is a way another can be of aid or support, but without transgressing the individual will of the other - they retain the right to do this, or that, it is just a reminder that they have the choice that the friend offers.
So I have a nose for inconsistancies and appreciate when others spot them in me. Whether I agree with what they see or not, I see the attempt as a friendly and caring gesture. That is what really counts. Someone gives you a gift, whether it was something you want, need, or like, the fact that they wanted to give a gift is touching and appreciated.
So, I guess it is easy to understand how my pointing at inconsistancies all the time might be called trying to "troll" by people who , I guess, do not have this same perception of relational exchange. It is the intent being accused that seems way off to me and miffed me - as if being harrangued, called names, insulted and demanded to explain what I said AGAIN and AGAIN, was "fun" or "amusing"!! How could anyone enjoy that?? - Much less do something with the purpose of creating that situation??
I often figure it is perhaps a bump in the road to making friends or establishing some sort of trusting respect... like when a new individual enters a herd or mute, they have to go through a period of being tested, challenged, and often knocked around a bit before being accepted and trusted. But if I can find a way to avoid that painful process, I prefer to. I certainly have no desire to seek it out just for the sake of "enjoying" it.
The danger, of course, is that not everyone with a concern is a concern troll - and not every concern is unreasonable. In environments of genuine groupthink, applying the concern troll label may serve as a means of enforcing conformity and punishing (or silencing) dissent. And even without actual groupthink in play, many Internet posters find dismissing an argument much quicker and easier than evaluating it.
In addition, the term "concern troll" focuses not on what the person is actually saying, but on some alleged agenda.
Thus, if misused, it is the perfect refuge for someone who has no counter to the actual argument: simply ignore the points made, allege some other position, and then accuse the other person of lying if they deny that that is what they're really saying. It's a combination of straw man and argumentum ad hominem: make up something to attack, and ignore their actual points on the basis that since the points were made by someone acting in bad faith, they need not be addressed.
Sometimes outsiders will come by and make concern troll-like statements sincerely. Some are sincere but stupid. Some may be insightful, and justified iconoclasts, merely making valid observations unwelcome to the dominant ideology or culture of the forum (the Cassandra syndrome). Often, of course, the person is misguided, wrong, and not actually trolling.
I can certainly be wrong, stupid, misguided, but to think I am frigging laughing my head off because I desired to be abused and am getting it, is even more stupid!
At risk of (again) saying too much....
I'm glad I ranted here. Afterwards it helped me make some personal break throughs.
First, I started to see how my behavior IS that painted by the "concern troll" from the outside, though it is sincere, not for stirring problems. Though for people reading on a screen, my intent doesn't really matter.
Then I pulled a tarot card, just to help myself see better my self in relation to my concerns. I got this-
It told me I am caught up in some kind of defenses, that I am not recognizing, that protect my heart, but keep others away.
So then I lay down for a nap, and I was drifting off, I purposefully imagined myself as that maiden, imagined taking off the blindfold (so I could see what I have been blind to) and slowly lowering the swords, placing them on the ground.
Then I had a fell asleep, and had a marvelous dream.
In it, I had a very big bedroom, and all around the high walls was a sort of library balcony, filled with books, on which lived an elephant! She would stretch down her trunk and I would pet it, and one day she came down. She was checking out the room, then started to step out side a bit. She was super sweet and affectionate, and a few people that came into the room, couldn't help hugging her right away, I did too.
To sum it up, she wanted to get out and go experience the outside world, but was terribly afraid. She didn't know how to deal with it, being inside for so long. So I caught her trying to throw herself down the stairs, trying to kill herself (albeit very clumsily and not successfully) because she didn't have the courage to set out, but couldn't accept going back to living within.
I stopped her, and a group of my friends joined us, and we all told her we would help her. That we would support her and help her find her way, perhaps find an environment where she could live with other elephants. We even laughed at one point, that we all knew what it was like, we'd all been on her spot at some point- and nobody helped us. So we were dedicated to helping another.
I woke with a very warm and loving feeling. The "elephant in the room" is that I obviously want to get close to people, but sabotage myself with my defenses out of fear.
I didn't recognize the faces of the friends who came to help me, but I think it was symbolizing that there are people around me that can be of aid... that you guys have given me some important advice to listen to.
For me it was a breakthrough, not just for internet discussions, but for real life exchanges.
Thanks!!!
Afterwards, it hit me the whole dream-story might have been pulled from this video-
I'm glad I ranted here. Afterwards it helped me make some personal break throughs.
First, I started to see how my behavior IS that painted by the "concern troll" from the outside, though it is sincere, not for stirring problems. Though for people reading on a screen, my intent doesn't really matter.
Then I pulled a tarot card, just to help myself see better my self in relation to my concerns. I got this-
It told me I am caught up in some kind of defenses, that I am not recognizing, that protect my heart, but keep others away.
So then I lay down for a nap, and I was drifting off, I purposefully imagined myself as that maiden, imagined taking off the blindfold (so I could see what I have been blind to) and slowly lowering the swords, placing them on the ground.
Then I had a fell asleep, and had a marvelous dream.
In it, I had a very big bedroom, and all around the high walls was a sort of library balcony, filled with books, on which lived an elephant! She would stretch down her trunk and I would pet it, and one day she came down. She was checking out the room, then started to step out side a bit. She was super sweet and affectionate, and a few people that came into the room, couldn't help hugging her right away, I did too.
To sum it up, she wanted to get out and go experience the outside world, but was terribly afraid. She didn't know how to deal with it, being inside for so long. So I caught her trying to throw herself down the stairs, trying to kill herself (albeit very clumsily and not successfully) because she didn't have the courage to set out, but couldn't accept going back to living within.
I stopped her, and a group of my friends joined us, and we all told her we would help her. That we would support her and help her find her way, perhaps find an environment where she could live with other elephants. We even laughed at one point, that we all knew what it was like, we'd all been on her spot at some point- and nobody helped us. So we were dedicated to helping another.
I woke with a very warm and loving feeling. The "elephant in the room" is that I obviously want to get close to people, but sabotage myself with my defenses out of fear.
I didn't recognize the faces of the friends who came to help me, but I think it was symbolizing that there are people around me that can be of aid... that you guys have given me some important advice to listen to.
For me it was a breakthrough, not just for internet discussions, but for real life exchanges.
Thanks!!!
Afterwards, it hit me the whole dream-story might have been pulled from this video-
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